148 réponses à ce sujet

[Malanek]

I didn't really find Ostagar to be a slog. The slog parts of DAO were the sloth demon fade section and the deep roads. Ostagar wasn't really the intro either, the origins each took about an hour. I didn't like the intro to DA2 at all, I thought it was the worst part of the game and quite terrible to put it out as the demo.

Any parts of the story can get bogged down, its not something that is restricted to the start. I can't actually think of a place in DA2 that felt like that. The Arishok fight was a bit silly (giving the guy you had to hit a thousand times health potions was not funny) but largely the game moved with excellent pacing.

[Solmanian]

There alot of games that let skip the tutorial. But in bioware the first part is also a tutorial to the plot. You can't have a game without exposition. When you read a book you loved a second time, do you just skip the first chapters? Cause I found those first chapters being the best part of the book.

[legbamel]

I love the origins and Ostagar itself, in the camp, but I hate the Kocari Wilds. If I could just skip that I'd be a happy gamer. I like the Deep Roads. too, particularly the fact that you can leave after clearing one section, do something else for a while, and then come back to them. If only the Fade had had that sort of design it would have been much more enjoyable, to me. Storywise it wouldn't have made much sense, though.

As for KOTOR, I have yet to actually finish Taris. I definitely agree that it's a slog but I don't know what happens after that so I can't say whether the rest of the game is an improvement. After reading this thread I might finally get off the damned planet and get into the story. Apparently BioWare hates Taris: it's a slog in SWTOR, too.

[ohnotherancor]

legbamel wrote...

As for KOTOR, I have yet to actually finish Taris. I definitely agree that it's a slog but I don't know what happens after that so I can't say whether the rest of the game is an improvement. 

It is.

Though I'm biased since KOTOR is probably my favorite BioWare game.

Modifié par x0hn0th3r4nc0rx, 04 décembre 2012 - 03:16 .

[Spankoman]

brushyourteeth wrote...

Spankoman wrote...

I enjoyed Ostagar. On my playthroughs (after the first) I always thought of it as the calm before the storm.

DA2's beginning didn't make much of an impression on me. The "escape" part. The rest of it was fine.

I loved Ostagar the first time. With each playthrough, however, it got more and more tiresome.

Now I have to muster up a whole lot of Origins nostalgia to power my playthrough if I want to make it all the way through to the other parts of the game.

Not a problem for most people, supposedly, since "most people" apparently don't replay. So on that basis, I guess it's enough that it was interesting the first time, though I think the DA team could accomplish pretty much anything if given the time and the resources, and the desire to attempt it. But since that isn't the case, I prefer Ostagar to Blighted Lothering.

I never did tire of it. I liked the big-ness of it, it felt very immersive. It felt like there was a whole world of things going on that had nothing to do with me, but I could find out, if I wanted to.

[ScotGaymer]

AppealToReason wrote...

FitScotGaymer wrote...

Nefla wrote...

Also I'm apparently weird since I LOVE the deep roads. I love the design, the creepiness, all the little things you can do and discover like the topsider's honor, the one with the demon body parts, the crosscut drifters, etc...and how big it is.

And that for me was the problem with the Deep Roads.

I loved the Deep Roads quests and design too. My only problem was the section was too damn long.

The very definition of a slog.

Eugh.

That is easily my favourite part of Origins. Slog or no, I love it. Couldn't get enough.

It wouldnt have been so bad if there had been some sort of out.

A portal that took you back to the surface. Or to Orzammar. A quest that for a short time took you out of the deep roads for a time.
Or perhaps you stumble across some vast underground lost world type place inhabited by dwarves and elves, a left over from the ancient dwarven/elven alliance that got cut off during the first blight.

Just something to break up the length and monotony of the whole area.

It wouldn't have been so bad, It's mostly "bad" because you have to sit through it in one giant slog in an already exceedingly lengthy game. Eugh.

[Flamingdropbear]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

It wouldnt have been so bad if there had been some sort of out.

A portal that took you back to the surface. Or to Orzammar. A quest that for a short time took you out of the deep roads for a time.

You mean like the map screen? Once you finished a map, and got back to the map screen there was nothing preventing you from travelling all the way back to Denerim, or Lothering. I often took trips back to Orzamar to dump loot and stock up on potions. The only place you can't do that is once you get to the Anvil map and Branka locks you in.

The only part of the the 1st part of DAO that was a slog was they Wilds as to get all the various quests involves retracing your steps, through parts of the map already cleared to click on random things. The back tracking was a slog more than anything else. This was why I didn't like DA2 (SO MUCH back tracking) and the Brecillian forest, but liked the Deep Roads (in DAO)

Gileadan wrote...

I really like the DAO deep roads too. It
is awesome how overwhelmingly huge they are, with all those neat little
details to discover. In comparison, the DA2 deep roads felt like a walk
through a theme park to me, a theme park built by someone who had maybe
read about the real deep roads but had never seen the actual place
themselves.

Amen, If a map or two had been cut it would have seemed far to easy to find a thaig that had been lost for centuries.

[Luckywallace]

I'm not too fussed but one major problem I have with Dragon Age in the early part of the game is the combat is BORING. When you only have 3/4 attacks you barely get the chance for much stratergy or tactics since they are so few options.

Once you get to Level 10 or more then the combat becomes awesome and you are always making decisions (on a reasonable difficulty anyway). Just spamming basic attacks is not fun though.

For this reason alone I only played Origins once yet I played Awakening 3 times and even Leliana's Song several times since you get enjoyable combat from the start.
Thank heavens for the level-up exploit bug in Dragon Age 2 (which was annoyingly patched) - I use it to bump up to level 10/11 from the start of Year 1.

My please to nioware is PLEASE give a solution to this - either New Game + (simple and affective), the ability to just start at Level 10, more skills from the very start or else simply leave a bug in the game like DA2. I don't have the money to upgrade my PC so am limited to having a console version and modding is not an option... :-(

[ScotGaymer]

Flamingdropbear wrote...

FitScotGaymer wrote...

It wouldnt have been so bad if there had been some sort of out.

A portal that took you back to the surface. Or to Orzammar. A quest that for a short time took you out of the deep roads for a time.

You mean like the map screen? Once you finished a map, and got back to the map screen there was nothing preventing you from travelling all the way back to Denerim, or Lothering. I often took trips back to Orzamar to dump loot and stock up on potions. The only place you can't do that is once you get to the Anvil map and Branka locks you in.

The only part of the the 1st part of DAO that was a slog was they Wilds as to get all the various quests involves retracing your steps, through parts of the map already cleared to click on random things. The back tracking was a slog more than anything else. This was why I didn't like DA2 (SO MUCH back tracking) and the Brecillian forest, but liked the Deep Roads (in DAO)

Is that the only part of my post you read?

Because honestly if you had read the rest of it, you wouldn't have even said this supremely stupid thing. I don't mean to be insulting but honestly think about it.

I was clearly talking about something along the lines of a FAST TRAVEL completely OUT of the deep roads into another environment! To break up the monotony! In ONE loading screen. And then bring you back later.

Yes, of course you can do that yourself but it requires you to travel back to orz, and then out of orz back to the main map, and then travel elsewhere possibly being waylaid. And then you eventually have to go back, going through all those different screens and loading transitions all over again.
What i am talking about is making the length deep roads feel shorter (but not actually be shorter) by dividing it up into two smaller (or three smaller) more easily digestible pieces somehow. Travelling through 3 or 4 loading screens and areas just to find something different to do to break things up yourself would not, and does not, make the Deep roads feel shorter.

What I was talking about was a fast travel portal of some kind as part of a tangentially related quest maybe taking place back on the surface in some lush valley in the mountains near to the Dwarven city, or in some lost world type place. Or something. Just to break up the sheer length and slog and monotony of the deep roads just a little bit.

So that the player can truely properly appreciate how awesome that part of the game is, instead of getting to the crowning and thinking "omg! that fork its done now! I can leave!"

I am not talking about making the deep roads sections shorter, because they did that in DA2. And the Deep Roads sections in that game were pretty boring, and linear.
I am talking about keeping the awesomeness, and length, and finding some way to communicate it all to the player in a more engaging way.

Modifié par FitScotGaymer, 05 décembre 2012 - 12:02 .

[Artemis_Entrari]

BG1 - Candlekeep was pretty tedious, and IMO, had no real appeal on subsequent play throughs.

BG2- While I liked what it did better than Candlekeep, Irenicus' dungeon was about one level too long.  Maybe if there was only the first level, it would be okay during replays.

JE- Honestly can't remember much of the beginning.  From foggy recollection, it wasn't too bad.

KOTOR - Endire Spire was fine.  Even on subsequent play throughs, it wasn't that long until you got to Taris.  And Taris, IMO, was great for setting the tone of the game.

ME1- I liked Eden Prime, so I honestly didn't mind replaying it.

ME2- Cerberus facility was decent enough.  Got kind of boring replaying it though.

ME3- Earth was disappointing, but more because it was a wasted opportunity (IMO) to actually get to finally explore Earth in the ME universe.  IMO, it should have mirrored KOTOR in that the "intro" should have been aboard a shuttle as Shepard landed on Earth, then have Earth be the Taris of the game with various missions leading up to the Reaper assault.

DA:O- I liked the Origins portion, but the Ostagar part dragged.  I think individually each would be fine, but it just took WAAAAAAY too long from the origins to Ostagar until you finally reached Lothering.

DA2- The tutorial beginning was short, but it was also devoid of much real interesting content.  No real memorable lore, nothing that sets the tone for the rest of the game, IMO.

So ideally, I'd hope DA3 follows either KOTOR or ME1's intro/tutorial beginnings.

[Daerog]

Artemis_Entrari wrote...

(snip)
JE- Honestly can't remember much of the beginning.  From foggy recollection, it wasn't too bad.
(snip)

So ideally, I'd hope DA3 follows either KOTOR or ME1's intro/tutorial beginnings.

I did like KotOR and ME1's beginning. However, I hope for something more like JE.

It was kind of like the usual hero story beginning. Set in an almost paradise like setting. Humble and happy. Introduced to aspects of the world and background info, as well as learn how to fight. Introduced to characters. Then the evils/problems of the real world invade and destroy the hero's ideal life and throws him/her onto a path of discovery and adventure. Such a thing can be boring if done with haste or little thought, of course.

[ScotGaymer]

Hanz54321 wrote...

FitScotGaymer wrote...

I was clearly talking about something along the lines of a FAST TRAVEL completely OUT of the deep roads into another environment! To break up the monotony! In ONE loading screen.

Yes, of course you can do that yourself but it requires you to travel back to orz, and then out of orz back to the main map, and then travel elsewhere possibly being waylaid.

FYI - that's not true.  You can travel from the Deep Roads directly to your camp.

Nope.

At least I have never been able to do that. Always had to travel back to orz, out of orz to the surface, and then to the camp or wherever.
Maybe a bug... or something then...

[Flamingdropbear]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

Hanz54321 wrote...

FitScotGaymer wrote...

I was clearly talking about something along the lines of a FAST TRAVEL completely OUT of the deep roads into another environment! To break up the monotony! In ONE loading screen.

Yes, of course you can do that yourself but it requires you to travel back to orz, and then out of orz back to the main map, and then travel elsewhere possibly being waylaid.

FYI - that's not true.  You can travel from the Deep Roads directly to your camp.

Nope.

At least I have never been able to do that. Always had to travel back to orz, out of orz to the surface, and then to the camp or wherever.
Maybe a bug... or something then...

quite possibly, If you've had do do all that to get to camp I can see why it seems so long, arduous and bloody irritating to you and possibly others who complain about the deep roads, but as I've never had to it has never been a big deal.

Modifié par Flamingdropbear, 05 décembre 2012 - 02:17 .

[Wullo]

The default map is the Deep Roads map which only shows Orzammar but you can change at the bottom of the screen to the world map and there you can access the camp or whatever.

In case it was a bug for you or something else (have no idea what it could be) so that those locations where greyed out then nevermind my post, not trying to lecture or anything. Peace xD

(Btw, I only hate the Deep Roads if thats the last thing i do before going to Denerim with Arl Eamon.. at that point I just want to get to the other stuff!!)

Modifié par Wullo, 05 décembre 2012 - 02:45 .

[h0neanias]

I liked all these parts, even on subsequent playthroughs -- the Origin stories, ruins of Ostagar, Eden Prime, even Deep Roads, which I actually very much enjoy. The area that's really hard for me to get through is the Citadel in ME.

Modifié par h0neanias, 05 décembre 2012 - 07:43 .

[Fraq Hound]

I preferred the prologues in DA:O but that's not to say I thought DA2's opening was bad; It just wasn't as satisfying as DA:O.

Honestly though, I don't care which way they go, so long as they give us a proper ending this time.

They haven't made one since 2009, I sure hope they can remember how.

Modifié par Fraq Hound, 05 décembre 2012 - 06:24 .

[ScotGaymer]

Putting all that aside. The deep roads are still fairly arduous in length.

[RussianSpy27]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Based on discussion on the BSN, I feel there's a very mixed reception to the pacing of the beginning.

Many have stated they found it jarring to jump straight into an escape as Hawke without much context. They feel it undermined the effect of losing a sibling, as they hadn't yet established any reason to care for said sibling. I find these people tend to appreciate the slower beginnings of the Origins stories, as it helped them feel established in the setting and to make sense of some of the relationships.


On the counterpoint, I do agree DAO feels more like a slog (you think you guys think Ostagar is a slog, aye carumba!), and there have been some that feel that DA2's speedier introduction is preferrable (even some who feel that the sibling death was undermined due to the briefness actually don't mind the overall pace of the intro).

I think it's a tricky card to play. I personally value the first playthrough over subsequent playthrough (since it's untainted by extra knowledge), but that's just my perspective.

I am certainly in the former group - the one that loves slower introductions that provide context. Ostagar may have been a but sloggish, but the Origin stories are fascinating and set the story and the mood of the game better than any other previous game introduction. 

[Melca36]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

Hanz54321 wrote...

FitScotGaymer wrote...

I was clearly talking about something along the lines of a FAST TRAVEL completely OUT of the deep roads into another environment! To break up the monotony! In ONE loading screen.

Yes, of course you can do that yourself but it requires you to travel back to orz, and then out of orz back to the main map, and then travel elsewhere possibly being waylaid.

FYI - that's not true.  You can travel from the Deep Roads directly to your camp.

Nope.

At least I have never been able to do that. Always had to travel back to orz, out of orz to the surface, and then to the camp or wherever.
Maybe a bug... or something then...

Must have been a bug....Because I was always able to split the Deeproads in two and go back to camp.

I hated what it became in DA2 but liked it in Legacy.

I hope a reasonable compromise is made for DA3

[Celtic Latino]

I actually find many of the first areas quite well done for the most part.

Origins allowed you to define your character through his or her origin, and not solely through combat either. To me that was the 'tutorial' before the first major part (Ostagar, which really isn't terribly boring). I enjoyed Mass Effect (1)'s Eden Prime mission, that's when you start building your Shepard's stats and get used to the combat. The pacing is quite well, there's enough action and you get a sense of the rising threat at hand.

As much as I enjoyed DA2, I actually it's beginning was one of it's biggest weaknesses. The only difference between the thieves and mercenaries was who you worked for. That 'year' could have easily been more gameplay alone, allowing you to really get to know your (surviving) sibling while getting the vibe of Kirkwall (which felt like *insert* random city at first before the plot picked up). I didn't mind the fleeing darkspawn and losing the other sibling so early since they were meant to be a filler or plot device.

Then there's Mass Effect 2 and 3, both extremely long cut-scenes that take forever. One has a super long cut-scene to character creation and the other you're forced to sit through the atrocious autodialogue. Nice on the first playthrough, okay in the second, but then it gets damn annoying.

I love story but I don't want to sit through cut-scene after cut-scene, especially if it's non-skippable. I think Origins had the right idea, something like a blend between Origins and Eden Prime, action focused with few cut-scenes and deep dialogue opportunities in the beginning that allow you to get a sense of what's going on, define your character (and potentially make the first major decision, especially if you don't know if it's major or the effect it will have later on), AND most importantly, get the ins and outs of gameplay.

(Just don't have NPCs telling you to 'click/press *insert button' (remembers Candlekeep monks lol). That's world/game-breaking. Save the real world for the real world).

[h0neanias]

If there are first areas I hate, it's the whole ME2/DA2 prologue thing. Which bloody fool came up with that? At least DA2 has action, but to let players slog through the Normandy destruction every time one tries a new character is a patently bad idea.