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[iOnlySignIn]

I wonder why BioWare has so far appeared to avoid a revolutionary rhetoric in the approach of the Mage-Templar War. Is it for political correctness?

For me the relationship between my Hawke and Anders is like that of Fidel Castro and Che Guevara.



Revolutionary Comrade-In-Arms.

It doesn't have to be Communist in nature either. There's the French Revolution:



And the American Revolution:



^In fact this last picture is what I see when Hawke crosses the waters to reach the Gallows at the end of Dragon Age 2.

Finally, but perhaps with the most relevance, there is Martin Luther King Jr.'s rhetoric regarding civil rights, which he used to convince black and non-black people alike:



While non-violent, its effect on society is certainly revolutionary.

Just some exciting historical analogues for BioWare to consider.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 02 décembre 2012 - 01:04 .

[Xilizhra]

So that the moderates aren't scared off. Although I'll forever use your interpretation of crossing to the Gallows as my own; that's actually quite clever.

[iOnlySignIn]

Xilizhra wrote...

So that the moderates aren't scared off. Although I'll forever use your interpretation of crossing to the Gallows as my own; that's actually quite clever.

Feel free. All Hawke needs in that scene is a tricorne hat.

Also, I am moderate. I have a Nolan Chart to prove it.

[Xilizhra]

Maybe someone can mod the hat in.

[Swagger7]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

So that the moderates aren't scared off. Although I'll forever use your interpretation of crossing to the Gallows as my own; that's actually quite clever.

Feel free. All Hawke needs in that scene is a tricorne hat.

Also, I am moderate. I have a Nolan Chart to prove it.

Wait, did a bunch of forum users do a political survey at some point?  When did this happen, and why wasn't I invited? 

[Cutlass Jack]

The French Revolution shot does remind me a bit of my private time with Isabela....

[nightscrawl]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

I wonder why BioWare has so far appeared to avoid a revolutionary rhetoric in the approach of the Mage-Templar War. Is it for political correctness?

For me the relationship between my Hawke and Anders is like that of Fidel Castro and Che Guevara.

Anders is not focused on freedom for everyone, he is focused on a specific group: mages. In fact he believes that they are "slaves." I don't think Bioware has used that type of revolutionary language because it's not correct for that cause. If anything, Anders would use the same type of language as abolitionists. "Mages are people too and deserve the same freedoms as others," and so forth.

[Swagger7]

nightscrawl wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

I wonder why BioWare has so far appeared to avoid a revolutionary rhetoric in the approach of the Mage-Templar War. Is it for political correctness?

For me the relationship between my Hawke and Anders is like that of Fidel Castro and Che Guevara.

Anders is not focused on freedom for everyone, he is focused on a specific group: mages. In fact he believes that they are "slaves." I don't think Bioware has used that type of revolutionary language because it's not correct for that cause. If anything, Anders would use the same type of language as abolitionists. "Mages are people too and deserve the same freedoms as others," and so forth.

Well to be fair the American Revolution wasn't about freedom for everyone either, and they still used lofty phrases about "liberty for all".

[nightscrawl]

Swagger7 wrote...

Well to be fair the American Revolution wasn't about freedom for everyone either, and they still used lofty phrases about "liberty for all".

It was supposed to be. They left out references to slavery to appease the southern colonies because they wanted 100% agreement. If they were going to win the war they would have to be "united."

If you want to be nitpicky about it, none of those conflicts are really the same. Speaking in general terms here, the American Revolution is different from the French Revolution because the British monarchy was ruling America from a distance, whereas the French peasants were tired of being pissed on by their monarchy. The Cuban Communist Revolution is different from those because it brings in the relatively young ideals of communism, rather than democracy.

All of those are still different from what Anders wants for mages. Unfortunately, unlike our own history with slavery -- for the record, I don't actually consider the mages to be "slaves," as Anders does, but I'm not going to argue that here -- there aren't really any non-mage abolitionist types. Sure, you may have a few people here or there, but it's not a movement or a school of thought, it's pretty much mages versus everyone else.

Continuing with the slavery comparison, the closest example might be the Haitian slave revolt. I imagine we might expect the same kind of death toll as well, in the tens of thousands.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 01 décembre 2012 - 10:20 .

[Swagger7]

nightscrawl wrote...

Swagger7 wrote...

Well to be fair the American Revolution wasn't about freedom for everyone either, and they still used lofty phrases about "liberty for all".

Well if you want to be nitpicky about it, none of those conflicts are really the same. Speaking in general terms here, the American Revolution is different from the French Revolution because the British monarchy was ruling America from a distance, whereas the French peasants were tired of being pissed on by their monarchy. The Cuban Communist Revolution is different from those because it brings in the relatively young ideals of communism, rather than democracy.

All of those are still different from what Anders wants for mages. Unfortunately, unlike our own history with slavery -- for the record, I don't actually consider the mages to be "slaves," as Anders does, but I'm not going to argue that here -- there aren't really any non-mage abolitionist types. Sure, you may have a few people here or there, but it's not a movement or a school of thought, it's pretty much mages versus everyone else.

Continuing with the slavery comparison, the closest example might be the Haitian slave revolt. I imagine we might expect the same kind of death toll as well, in the tens of thousands.

I was just pointing out that revolutions with only a segment of the population in mind can still make grandiose claims about freedom for everyone, hence the revolutionary rhetoric the OP was talking about wouldn't be out of place in Ander's revolution, or the mage civil war.

Modifié par Swagger7, 01 décembre 2012 - 10:23 .

[Dean_the_Young]

I'm perfectly happy with more revolutionary rhetoric, so long as we get our own counter-revolutionary consequences and rhetoric as well. No good allusion to the French Revolution, after all, can really go by without pointing out that it led directly to The Reign of Terror and then the Napoleonic Empire.

[nightscrawl]

I think the magic element is the chief difference and will always contribute to an "us vs them" mentality in Thedas. You can't even use a real world comparison because nothing like it exists. You can give one side or the other superior firepower with weapons, even teach inexperienced people how to use them. You cannot do this with magic, and magic will always be the superior weapon. The only thing the non-mages have going for them are trained templars, and even that supposedly depends on a supply of lyrium.

In other words, there is never the potential to be equal because of the inherent inequality in magic itself. It would be a false ideal to strive for in such a revolution.

I would be interested to know what exactly determines magic. Is it simply an inherited trait? Can it be bred out or bread for? It's mentioned at one point that the Tevinter magisters kept detailed records of bloodlines known to produce mages. Do they practice eugenics there, among the elite? In over a thousand years, I'm surprised the Chantry has never tried this. It doesn't seem beyond them. Thedas needs the Bene Gesserit.

I got a bit off topic there, sorry about that.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 01 décembre 2012 - 10:48 .

[upsettingshorts]

Historically speaking, Hawke's trip to the Gallows on the boat and Washington's crossing of the Delaware on Christmas couldn't be more different.

Washington's army had just been thrown out of New York in spectacular fashion (The Battle of Long Island), where they were nearly encircled and destroyed, potentially ending the war right there. After a narrow escape the army was chased completely out of New York and then out of New Jersey by General Sir William Howe. But this being the 18th century, practical issues as well as tradition dictated that armies took the winters off. Satisfied in his near-total victory, Howe withdrew the bulk of his forces north and left a rear guard of soldiers including Hessian (German) mercenaries at the bank of the Delaware to shadow the remnants of Washington's army.

Washington, always prone to advocate bold decisive movements sometimes to his peril, pulled off a logistical miracle and managed to silently transfer his troops over the river in the middle of the night during one of the coldest winters in history to attack a willfully ignorant and unprepared Hessian detachment at Trenton in one of the most lopsided victories of the entire war. The victory itself would be of middling importance given the numbers involved, but given the consistent drubbing the Americans had taken for several months meant it - along with the Battle of Princeton days later - was an important moral victory.

So how does Washington crossing the Delaware compare to Hawke's trip to the Gallows?

Well, there's a boat.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 01 décembre 2012 - 11:37 .

[upsettingshorts]

That said, Anders himself used his fair share of revolutionary rhetoric, mostly in the scene where he declares his intentions before and after the Chantry explodes.

[Doctoglethorpe]

Lots of revolution discussion in Asunder though. From both Mages and Templars alike.

[Dean_the_Young]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Historically speaking, Hawke's trip to the Gallows on the boat and Washington's crossing of the Delaware on Christmas couldn't be more different.

Washington's army had just been thrown out of New York in spectacular fashion (The Battle of Long Island), where they were nearly encircled and destroyed, potentially ending the war right there. After a narrow escape the army was chased completely out of New York and then out of New Jersey by General Sir William Howe. But this being the 18th century, practical issues as well as tradition dictated that armies took the winters off. Satisfied in his near-total victory, Howe withdrew the bulk of his forces north and left a rear guard of soldiers including Hessian (German) mercenaries at the bank of the Delaware to shadow the remnants of Washington's army.

Washington, always prone to advocate bold decisive movements sometimes to his peril, pulled off a logistical miracle and managed to silently transfer his troops over the river in the middle of the night during one of the coldest winters in history to attack a willfully ignorant and unprepared Hessian detachment at Trenton in one of the most lopsided victories of the entire war. The victory itself would be of middling importance given the numbers involved, but given the consistent drubbing the Americans had taken for several months meant it - along with the Battle of Princeton days later - was an important moral victory.

So how does Washington crossing the Delaware compare to Hawke's trip to the Gallows?

Well, there's a boat.

The history geek in me knew all this already, but your clincher is pure gold.

[LobselVith8]

Xilizhra wrote...

So that the moderates aren't scared off. Although I'll forever use your interpretation of crossing to the Gallows as my own; that's actually quite clever.

I find the Fidel and Che analogue to Anders and Hawke rather interesting. I like the thought of pro-mage apostate Hawke fighting alongside Anders for the freedom of the mages in the Templar-Mage War.

nightscrawl wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

I wonder why BioWare has so far appeared to avoid a revolutionary rhetoric in the approach of the Mage-Templar War. Is it for political correctness?

For me the relationship between my Hawke and Anders is like that of Fidel Castro and Che Guevara.

Anders is not focused on freedom for everyone, he is focused on a specific group: mages. In fact he believes that they are "slaves." I don't think Bioware has used that type of revolutionary language because it's not correct for that cause. If anything, Anders would use the same type of language as abolitionists. "Mages are people too and deserve the same freedoms as others," and so forth.

Anders says that the elves should fight alongside the mages for their rights; he wants equality, but focuses primarily on emancipating the mages.

[LobselVith8]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

So how does Washington crossing the Delaware compare to Hawke's trip to the Gallows?

I think it has to do with the idea of an small force fighting a larger force, and the struggle for freedom against tyranny. I don't think the OP meant it was a scene for scene replica of the historical event that took place; simply that it had invoked similar tones (in their opinion).

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
the struggle for freedom against tyranny.

Everyone always thinks they're on the right side.
I make mine Fenris' words:

"Hawke: I tought freedom meant something to you.
Fenris: It does. That's exactly why I oppose what these mages hope to become."

From my point of view, the mundanes have been fighting for freedom against the tyranny of magic since the first stone of Tevinter was set in place.

[Xilizhra]

"Hawke: I tought freedom meant something to you.
Fenris: It does. That's exactly why I oppose what these mages hope to become."

Fenris is myopic, "mundanes" have never been united on the issue, and the Chantry has never, ever fought for freedom (Andraste did, but the Chantry has relatively little to do with her and much more to do with Drakon's imperialistic ambitions).
A pro-mage Inquisitor will fulfill the role of a second Andraste, I believe. A pro-Templar one gets to be the next Hessarian.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 01 décembre 2012 - 02:39 .

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

Everyone thinks they're on the right side.

So mundanes fight against the tyranny of magic by enslaving mages and forcing them into servitude? That's... an interesting way to look at it.

[upsettingshorts]

Xilizhra wrote...

Fenris is myopic

Listing characters in the Dragon Age universe who aren't would be much more efficient.

Listing characters in the Dragon Age universe who aren't myopic or cryptic about what they know would be near-impossible.

LobselVith8 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Everyone thinks they're on the right side.

So mundanes fight against the tyranny of magic by enslaving mages and forcing them into servitude? That's... an interesting way to look at it.

Seeing as it's a premodern, superstitious society, I'm relatively impressed they don't simply exterminate them.

As it stands, many of the biggest grievances levelled by mages against the system are a result of abuses of power and not the relatively nuanced letter of the law.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 01 décembre 2012 - 02:53 .

[Herr Uhl]

Right, instead of bickering about who is right and wrong here, you could do it in any number of threads.

I don't see how it could be akin to the American revolution (war of attrition where the Brits concluded to bugger off after a while) or the French/October revolutions due to lack of popular support. Well, at least from what I've seen in the games, there isn't much popular support.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
So mundanes fight against the tyranny of magic by enslaving mages and forcing them into servitude? That's... an interesting way to look at it.

I see neither slavery not servitude in the Circle system.
I see mundanes trying to protect themselves from what they have good reason to fear. I see people having their freedoms restricted to account for the danger they pose to themselves and others.