67 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Seeing as it's a premodern, superstitious society, I'm relatively impressed they don't simply exterminate them.

Tell me about it. We burn people at stakes and there is not a single evidence pointing towards the existence of anything supernatural in our world.
Had we dealt with actual demons and magic in our medieval times, I expect we would have commited genocide in the same day.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Fenris is myopic, "mundanes" have never been united on the issue, and the Chantry has never, ever fought for freedom (Andraste did, but the Chantry has relatively little to do with her and much more to do with Drakon's imperialistic ambitions).
A pro-mage Inquisitor will fulfill the role of a second Andraste, I believe. A pro-Templar one gets to be the next Hessarian.

What is right and what is wrong depends entirely on viewpoints. Some would say that Drakon and the Chantry were merely attempting to bring order and security to a world ravaged by magic, following the example of the woman who freed mundanes and was murdered by mages.
Likewise, I can say that the Circle system is the only thing ensuring the freedoms of mundanes everywhere.

Modifié par MisterJB, 01 décembre 2012 - 02:57 .

[ledod]

Nicki Minaj for voice acting in Da 3

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Fenris is myopic, "mundanes" have never been united on the issue, and the Chantry has never, ever fought for freedom (Andraste did, but the Chantry has relatively little to do with her and much more to do with Drakon's imperialistic ambitions).
A pro-mage Inquisitor will fulfill the role of a second Andraste, I believe. A pro-Templar one gets to be the next Hessarian.

What is right and what is wrong depends entirely on viewpoints. Some would say that Drakon and the Chantry were merely attempting to bring order and security to a world ravaged by magic, following the example of the woman who freed mundanes and was murdered by mages.
Likewise, I can say that the Circle system is the only thing ensuring the freedoms of mundanes everywhere.

It doesn't depend entirely on viewpoints. If mages can be freed and not threaten the world, as I believe will be the case by the end of DA3 (they can't diverge the outcomes too much; I believe it was said that the devs wanted mages to appear outside the Circles, which wouldn't happen if the status quo was restored; putting the status quo back in place would make the entire story of both 2 and 3 pointless; and it'll be popular with more people to see mages freed), then your viewpoints would be wrong.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
It doesn't depend entirely on viewpoints. If mages can be freed and not threaten the world, as I believe will be the case by the end of DA3 (they can't diverge the outcomes too much; I believe it was said that the devs wanted mages to appear outside the Circles, which wouldn't happen if the status quo was restored; putting the status quo back in place would make the entire story of both 2 and 3 pointless; and it'll be popular with more people to see mages freed), then your viewpoints would be wrong.

Using writing that is affected by human bias and emotions and, as you yourself admit it, influenced by literary and popular demands as some sort of ultimate proof that, in real life, mages could live equally beside mundanes is enormously stupid and clealry an evidence you're running out of logic-based arguments.

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
It doesn't depend entirely on viewpoints. If mages can be freed and not threaten the world, as I believe will be the case by the end of DA3 (they can't diverge the outcomes too much; I believe it was said that the devs wanted mages to appear outside the Circles, which wouldn't happen if the status quo was restored; putting the status quo back in place would make the entire story of both 2 and 3 pointless; and it'll be popular with more people to see mages freed), then your viewpoints would be wrong.

Using writing that is affected by human bias and emotions and, as you yourself admit it, influenced by literary and popular demands as some sort of ultimate proof that, in real life, mages could live equally beside mundanes is enormously stupid and clealry an evidence you're running out of logic-based arguments.

Logic-based arguments can only go so far because we have incomplete information about the actual, fictional world. We can't say whether or not there's any kind of plan in place, we can't say which plans will work, we don't have a decently detailed social assessment of the world as a whole, etc. Our tools are inadequate for speaking of anything but vague generalities. DA3 is necessary for more. As for real life, well, I'll have to see how it happens in DA3 to see whether it would work, wouldn't I? But your a priori rejection of any and all concepts for mage freedom seems rather silly when you don't know how it'll happen.

[Wulfram]

I wouldn't want the rhetoric to get to modern, or even 18th century. That would clash with the medieval setting a fair bit. I'd like to see more attempts to justify their rebellion through scriptural citation - as Anders does a bit if you've rivalled him - than appeals to natural law or liberty, equality and fraternity.

Though you can get some stirring revolutionary language in there too, like from the Declaration of Arbroath

for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom -- for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.

[Xilizhra]

I wouldn't want the rhetoric to get to modern, or even 18th century. That would clash with the medieval setting a fair bit. I'd like to see more attempts to justify their rebellion through scriptural citation - as Anders does a bit if you've rivalled him - than appeals to natural law or liberty, equality and fraternity.

I am not doing anything scriptural whatsoever.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Logic-based arguments can only go so far because we have incomplete information about the actual, fictional world. We can't say whether or not there's any kind of plan in place, we can't say which plans will work, we don't have a decently detailed social assessment of the world as a whole, etc. Our tools are inadequate for speaking of anything but vague generalities. DA3 is necessary for more. As for real life, well, I'll have to see how it happens in DA3 to see whether it would work, wouldn't I? But your a priori rejection of any and all concepts for mage freedom seems rather silly when you don't know how it'll happen.

We do not need DA3 at all. We have extended writing on how the world of Thedas works, its politics and economy and we know that their humans beings are based in real life humans so, we can predict how they react to any situation. At worst, we lack solid population numbers. But what we have  coupled with the knowledge extracted from our own world is more than enough to determine the potential for sucess of any solution to the conflict between mages and mundanes.

You simply do not have a solution, have no idea how to achieve what you want and are waiting for DA3 to do the job for you regardless if it's well written and logical.

[The Elder King]

Xilizhra wrote...



It doesn't depend entirely on viewpoints. If mages can be freed and not threaten the world, as I believe will be the case by the end of DA3 (they can't diverge the outcomes too much; I believe it was said that the devs wanted mages to appear outside the Circles, which wouldn't happen if the status quo was restored; putting the status quo back in place would make the entire story of both 2 and 3 pointless; and it'll be popular with more people to see mages freed), then your viewpoints would be wrong.

They wanted mages to appear outside of the Circles, yes, though we don't know if they want this because they want to experience for only a game of for all the DA games after DA2. In the first case, they could make the final outcome of DA3 with the mages again in the Circles,and they could very well make this pass as a neutral choice, if the Circles are completely indipendant from the Chantry or other organization. It's not something pro-mages will like (?), but it's something different from what was the status quo.
About the popular fact, it'll depend. If the story has the outcome I desired but it's a bad story, I'll not like it. While if the outcome is something I don't want, but the story is great and well-written, I'll like it.
Regardless, Bioware didn't do what was "popular" for the EC of ME3. They'll do the story that they want to write.
Anyway, there's a simple way to have both the templars and mages outcome in DA3 and accounting both for DA4 (unless the templars's goal will continue to be the annihilations of all mages). Qunari Invasion in grand style.

Modifié par hhh89, 01 décembre 2012 - 03:31 .

[Xilizhra]

We do not need DA3 at all. We have extended writing on how the world of Thedas works, its politics and economy and we know that their humans beings are based in real life humans so, we can predict how they react to any situation. At worst, we lack solid population numbers. But what we have coupled with the knowledge extracted from our own world is more than enough to determine the potential for sucess of any solution to the conflict between mages and mundanes.

We have some tiny and inadequate codex entries. And all of them are outdated anyway because none of them cover the mage-templar war; see how much the ME galaxy changed with the advent of the Reaper war.

You simply do not have a solution, have no idea how to achieve what you want and are waiting for DA3 to do the job for you regardless if it's well written and logical.

I obviously can't create a solution myself because I'm not a writer. I have suggested several solutions in the past, but suspect that none of them will actually be used. And you've done nothing more than I have, only argued speciously that the status quo should remain the same.

They wanted mages to appear outside of the Circles, yes, though we don't know if they want this because they want to experience for only a game of for all the DA games after DA2. In the first case, they could make the final outcome of DA3 with the mages again in the Circles,and they could very well make this pass as a neutral choice, if the Circles are completely indipendant from the Chantry or other organization. It's not something pro-mages will like (?), but it's something different from what was the status quo.

If the Circles are independent of the Chantry and probably have somewhat freer standards, I can take that... for now. Though I'd prefer to have the original Templar Order be completely annihilated as well.

About the popular fact, it'll depend. If the story has the outcome I desired but it's a bad story, I'll not like it. While if the outcome is something I don't want, but the story is great and well-written, I'll like it.
Regardless, Bioware didn't do what was "popular" for the EC of ME3. They'll do the story that they want to write.
Anyway, there's a simple way to have both the templars and mages outcome in DA3 and accounting both for DA4 (unless the templars's goal will continue to be the annihilations of all mages). Qunari Invasion in grand style.

I don't believe the templars' goal will change much. I also will absolutely not like the story if it doesn't contain the outcome that I desire, at least in some manner.

[nightscrawl]

StreetMagic wrote...

This is why I like Aggressive Hawke. He's a blunt instrument, no interest in politics or global details. Just the present, and his family. I'm glad I had the option to not elevate the game's themes beyond anything other than "being at the wrong place, at the wrong time". I didn't play a mage with much more depth either, now that I think about it. I've always liked the Isolationist school of thought in the Circle. It's what Malcolm Hawke was, more or less. And Flemeth and Morrigan. I'd only be as revolutionary as Morrigan- in the sense that I'd light Templars on fire if they tried to arrest me. Otherwise, who cares. Anders is just as much a problem as Meredith.

I don't mean this in a bad way, since I would be the same if I were really a mage ("Let me go live alone somewhere where I won't bother anyone, and no one will bother me"), but this is a self-centered viewpoint. It's certainly easy to go off by yourself, but other people, like Anders, cannot be content in their own lives while they know there are abuses or suffering going on. It's the same in real life. You have your activists, your people who fight causes, or just your general do-gooder who helps others for no reason than simply to help them.

MisterJB wrote...

"Hawke: I tought freedom meant something to you.
Fenris: It does. That's exactly why I oppose what these mages hope to become."

Interesting. I'll have to do some more dialog exploration the next time I play DA2. That line aside, I tend to find that Fenris is a bit more open to logical discussion than Anders is, as his gallows dialog shows. Anders is too volatile and emotionally involved sometimes. Granted, he IS a mage himself, so that's fair, but it is frustrating.

In real life I know someone who behaves similar to Anders during discussions. It becomes frustrating because I tend to talk in hypotheticals and to present multiple sides of an argument to explore all views while she cannot divorce herself from her emotions on particular subjects. So I appreciate Fenris in that regard.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
We have some tiny and inadequate codex entries. And all of them are outdated anyway because none of them cover the mage-templar war; see how much the ME galaxy changed with the advent of the Reaper war.

We have extensive codex entries, games, books, posts written by devs, etc. We have a very good insight on Thedas  which includes its wars; much of it were conflicts of mages against mundanes; and we have even more extensive knowledge on wars in our own world as well as the way people reacted to it.

I obviously can't create a solution myself because I'm not a writer. I have suggested several solutions in the past, but suspect that none of them will actually be used. And you've done nothing more than I have, only argued speciously that the status quo should remain the same.

Thank God for that.
My arguments are logic-based and I've never relied on some future game to justify my viewpoint.

[Xilizhra]

We have extensive codex entries, games, books, posts written by devs, etc. We have a very good insight on Thedas which includes its wars; much of it were conflicts of mages against mundanes; and we have even more extensive knowledge on wars in our own world as well as the way people reacted to it.

And I have provided solutions. That you disagreed does not change the fact that I've done so.

My arguments are logic-based and I've never relied on some future game to justify my viewpoint.

Based on logic that makes sense to you.

[The Elder King]

Xilizhra wrote...

They wanted mages to appear outside of the Circles, yes, though we don't know if they want this because they want to experience for only a game of for all the DA games after DA2. In the first case, they could make the final outcome of DA3 with the mages again in the Circles,and they could very well make this pass as a neutral choice, if the Circles are completely indipendant from the Chantry or other organization. It's not something pro-mages will like (?), but it's something different from what was the status quo.

If the Circles are independent of the Chantry and probably have somewhat freer standards, I can take that... for now. Though I'd prefer to have the original Templar Order be completely annihilated as well.

Obviously they'd have more rights and freedom, otherwise it wouldn't be a neutral choice. The problem pro-mages have with the Circle isn't only the Chantry's supervision, but the mages's treatment.
About the templars, if this outcome is the neutral one, I don't know if the templars could be annihilated. Though if the pro-mages are fine with this outcome, it could be the pro-mage outcome.

About the popular fact, it'll depend. If the story has the outcome I desired but it's a bad story, I'll not like it. While if the outcome is something I don't want, but the story is great and well-written, I'll like it.
Regardless, Bioware didn't do what was "popular" for the EC of ME3. They'll do the story that they want to write.
Anyway, there's a simple way to have both the templars and mages outcome in DA3 and accounting both for DA4 (unless the templars's goal will continue to be the annihilations of all mages). Qunari Invasion in grand style.

I don't believe the templars' goal will change much. I also will absolutely not like the story if it doesn't contain the outcome that I desire, at least in some manner.

As I see it. the templars's goal could be chosen between two: the annihilation of mages and restoration of the Circle system (in the status quo mode or harsher). The first has less chances of being part of DA3 if it's not the only ending of the game (which I think it'll not happen), since it's difficult to import with different endings. The second, in the case of the qunari invasion, could be imported.
About the bolded part, I didn't mean that everyone would like the story if it's well written but with an outcome they don't like. I said that I'd be fine with this, but I'm not with my favourite outcome in the game but with a bad story, so I''m more interested about a good story in general than about the outcome I want. Though I know I could be in the minority that feels this way.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
And I have provided solutions. That you disagreed does not change the fact that I've done so.

Rather than disagree, I've seen forumites tearing through them easily. And now you've resorted to "When DA3 comes, I'll be the right one."

Based on logic that makes sense to you.

Shall I say "facts"? I've used facts.

[Xilizhra]

Obviously they'd have more rights and freedom, otherwise it wouldn't be a neutral choice. The problem pro-mages have with the Circle isn't only the Chantry's supervision, but the mages's treatment.
About the templars, if this outcome is the neutral one, I don't know if the templars could be annihilated. Though if the pro-mages are fine with this outcome, it could be the pro-mage outcome.

How different can the various outcomes truly be?

As I see it. the templars's goal could be chosen between two: the annihilation of mages and restoration of the Circle system (in the status quo mode or harsher). The first has less chances of being part of DA3 if it's not the only ending of the game (which I think it'll not happen), since it's difficult to import with different endings. The second, in the case of the qunari invasion, could be imported.

So you'd try to make the end goal as meaningless as possible?

Rather than disagree, I've seen forumites tearing through them easily. And now you've resorted to "When DA3 comes, I'll be the right one."

You've seen them tear through them... according to your own opinion. Given this:

What is right and what is wrong depends entirely on viewpoints.

You might want to be less transparently dishonest about your motives next time.

Shall I say "facts"? I've used facts.

Speculation, abused facts, and lack of a complete picture.

[nightscrawl]

MisterJB wrote...

We do not need DA3 at all.

Gee, thanks...

We have extended writing on how the world of Thedas works, its politics and economy and we know that their humans beings are based in real life humans so, we can predict how they react to any situation. At worst, we lack solid population numbers. But what we have  coupled with the knowledge extracted from our own world is more than enough to determine the potential for sucess of any solution to the conflict between mages and mundanes.

You are missing an important component there and that is a sudden, unexpected, game changing event. Such events can alter the course of history. They can even be something as boring as bad weather almost pushing back D-Day for a month, and indeed reducing the amount of German personnel that was actually there. Anders's own action against the Chantry is one such event. The dragons' unexpected reappearance and following rampage at the end of the Blessed Age was another.

All it takes is one person. It might be some insignificant that no one has ever heard of before, it might be someone within the Chantry itself who desires a change in the status quo, it might be a templar (like Evangeline) who goes over to the other side.

Humans as a mob are predictable in their actions, I'll grant you that. But the individual is unpredictable, and THAT is why we need DA3.

[The Elder King]

Xilizhra wrote...

Obviously they'd have more rights and freedom, otherwise it wouldn't be a neutral choice. The problem pro-mages have with the Circle isn't only the Chantry's supervision, but the mages's treatment.
About the templars, if this outcome is the neutral one, I don't know if the templars could be annihilated. Though if the pro-mages are fine with this outcome, it could be the pro-mage outcome.

How different can the various outcomes truly be?

If the indipendent Circle is the pro-mage outcome and the status quo is the pro-templar outcome, they'll not be that different, and they can be used both in an import for DA4. There are of coruse differences, but unless we have a single ending, it's impossible to not have differencies.

As I see it. the templars's goal could be chosen between two: the annihilation of mages and restoration of the Circle system (in the status quo mode or harsher). The first has less chances of being part of DA3 if it's not the only ending of the game (which I think it'll not happen), since it's difficult to import with different endings. The second, in the case of the qunari invasion, could be imported.

So you'd try to make the end goal as meaningless as possible?

I'm not saying that this is what I'd do. I'm saying that this is what Bioware could do have both a mage and templar outcome imported in DA4. And the qunari invasion plot in DA4 would not make the end goal "meaningless". The pro-mages would've gained freedom, and the pro-templars would've successfully put the mages back in the Circles. The qunari invasion will simply make the situation so critical that the templars would need the mages for the war, so we could see mages outside the Circles.
Regardless, on that part of the post I was supposing that the mages's outcome would be freedom without a Circle situation. If the mages's outcome will be the indipedand Circle, the two outcomes will be similar enough to work in other types of stories other than a qunari invasion plot.

Modifié par hhh89, 01 décembre 2012 - 04:22 .

[Xilizhra]

If the indipendent Circle is the pro-mage outcome and the status quo is the pro-templar outcome, they'll not be that different, and they can be used both in an import for DA4. There are of coruse differences, but unless we have a single ending, it's impossible to not have differencies.

The differences here, I believe, would be far too stark. I suspect only one outcome might be possible.

I'm not saying that this is what I'd do. I'm saying that this is what Bioware could do have both a mage and templar outcome imported in DA4. And the qunari invasion plot in DA4 would not make the end goal "meaningless". The pro-mages would've gained freedom, and the pro-templars would've successfully put the mages back in the Circles. The qunari invasion will simply make the situation so critical that the templars would need the mages for the war, so we could see mages outside the Circles.
Regardless, on that part of the post I was supposing that the mages's outcome would be freedom without a Circle situation. If the mages's outcome will be the indipedand Circle, the two outcomes will be similar enough to work in other types of stories other than a qunari invasion plot.

So the mages would ultimately wind up free regardless, it'll just take another game to get there? I suppose that's workable.

[nightscrawl]

hhh89 wrote...

As I see it. the templars's goal could be chosen between two: the annihilation of mages and restoration of the Circle system (in the status quo mode or harsher).

You'll need to clarify. Annihilation of all mages in Chantry lands, either by immediate death or tranquility? Tranquility has some... issues, see Asunder. As far as doing whatever to ALL mages, I think that would be next to impossible.

Here are some things to consider...

From the ensuing chaos after the events of DA2 and Asunder, their system of tracking mages will have broken down. The templars are less organized, there might be destroyed phylacteries, damaged records, and so on, in addition to the mages themselves being scattered all over, some far from their Circle of origin. Then there are the very young mages. I guarantee there would be morale issues within the templars if they were forced to start killing mage children. Sure, with the current system there is the occasional death of a child, with the highest chance being on the removal from the home. I don't dispute that. Being ordered to kill several or dozens is another matter entirely. You might have cases like Thrask, whose own daughter was a mage.

The final fly in the ointment are the new mages. There will be babies and other children who will become mages in a few years time, but it's not yet known. Does the new policy then become the immediate death or tranquility of any child showing magical signs? You saw the lengths Isolde went to to protect Connor, and he wasn't even threatened with death! I doubt you would ever find them all.

As per my above post about eugenics, unless it's determined how to breed out magic, or some other force is found to cause magic to propagate, there will always be new mages.

[Fiacre]

StreetMagic wrote...

This is why I like Aggressive Hawke. He's a blunt instrument, no interest in politics or global details. Just the present, and his family. I'm glad I had the option to not elevate the game's themes beyond anything other than "being at the wrong place, at the wrong time". I didn't play a mage with much more depth either, now that I think about it. I've always liked the Isolationist school of thought in the Circle. It's what Malcolm Hawke was, more or less. And Flemeth and Morrigan. I'd only be as revolutionary as Morrigan- in the sense that I'd light Templars on fire if they tried to arrest me. Otherwise, who cares. Anders is just as much a problem as Meredith.

Really? My aggressive warrior Hawke is ridiculously pro mage, romanced Merrill and has little to no problems with her use of blood magic, has Anders as his bff, hates the Chantry, decided to side with Petrice to use her and her fanatics against the Qunari after seeing how they treated their mages (though to be fair, had that been another group rather than mages, he still would have reacted the same. But it's still very political.).

His reaction to Anders' blowing up the Chantry is gonna be more like "Seriously, Anders? You couldn't have told me about this beforehand, so, i don't know, we could have prepared adequately for this fight? It's like the qunari all over again, that didn't go like planned either... Now stop thinking I'm gonna kill you and get up, we have a crazy Knight Commander to kill and people to save." than anything.

It's never been just about him and his family and he's always been rather political.

...And yet Fenris is his drinking buddy and they get along quite well.

And as far as the topic goes, he also defintely thought of this whole fight as a revolution and would definitely have used more revolutionary rethoric had the game let him. Of course, he also wants to overthrow the Chantry and is all for freedom and equality of the elves as well.

[The Elder King]

Xilizhra wrote...

If the indipendent Circle is the pro-mage outcome and the status quo is the pro-templar outcome, they'll not be that different, and they can be used both in an import for DA4. There are of coruse differences, but unless we have a single ending, it's impossible to not have differencies.

The differences here, I believe, would be far too stark. I suspect only one outcome might be possible.

Sorry I don't know well what "stark" means. Do you mean that the differencies are too much to make a game with both outcomes imported?
I disagree. We wouldn't have a plot around the mages and the Circles (even in one of the main quests), because they should do two different paths, and some NPC might be exclusive for a determinate import, but it could work.
I'm not saying that having one outcome isn't better for making DA4. It's definitely simplier. But in the case of two Circle-based outcomes, they could do a sequel. I don't see how there could be much problems.
Of course this would require leaving the Circles and the Chantry alone, without involving their relationships as a plot in other games, but I'm fine with this. I'm interested in the mage-templar-Chantry debate, but I don't want it to be the main plot for two or three games.

I'm not saying that this is what I'd do. I'm saying that this is what Bioware could do have both a mage and templar outcome imported in DA4. And the qunari invasion plot in DA4 would not make the end goal "meaningless". The pro-mages would've gained freedom, and the pro-templars would've successfully put the mages back in the Circles. The qunari invasion will simply make the situation so critical that the templars would need the mages for the war, so we could see mages outside the of the Circles.
Regardless, on that part of the post I was supposing that the mages's outcome would be freedom without a Circle situation. If the mages's outcome will be the indipedand Circle, the two outcomes will be similar enough to work in other types of stories other than a qunari invasion plot.

So the mages would ultimately wind up free regardless, it'll just take another game to get there? I suppose that's workable.

They would be free during the war, or maybe they'll achieve freedom during it, I don't know. My point is more about that is possibile to make a sequel that can import both a pro-mage and pro-templar outcomes from DA3.
I mean, if Bioware decided to create both a pro-mage and pro-templar otcomes for DA3, and import them in DA4 in a way that works, I don't see what the problem is. Unless you're offended by the fact that pro-templar outcome is imported in DA4. In that case, I understand your point.