67 réponses à ce sujet

[The Elder King]

nightscrawl wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

As I see it. the templars's goal could be chosen between two: the annihilation of mages and restoration of the Circle system (in the status quo mode or harsher).

You'll need to clarify. Annihilation of all mages in Chantry lands, either by immediate death or tranquility? Tranquility has some... issues, see Asunder. As far as doing whatever to ALL mages, I think that would be next to impossible.

Here are some things to consider...
snip

As per my above post about eugenics, unless it's determined how to breed out magic, or some other force is found to cause magic to propagate, there will always be new mages.

I mean the mages in Chantry lands. After that, they'd probably restore the Circle system anyway (I doubt that Bioware will every make templars's main goal to be killing children right after they're found to have magical abilities). But in this case, unless DA4 will be set 20-30 years after DA3, there'll be not enough mages (or formed mages in general) to send to fight against the qunari.

[iOnlySignIn]

nightscrawl wrote...

If you want to be nitpicky about it, none of those conflicts are really the same. Speaking in general terms here, the American Revolution is different from the French Revolution because the British monarchy was ruling America from a distance, whereas the French peasants were tired of being pissed on by their monarchy. The Cuban Communist Revolution is different from those because it brings in the relatively young ideals of communism, rather than democracy.

All of those are still different from what Anders wants for mages. Unfortunately, unlike our own history with slavery -- for the record, I don't actually consider the mages to be "slaves," as Anders does, but I'm not going to argue that here -- there aren't really any non-mage abolitionist types. Sure, you may have a few people here or there, but it's not a movement or a school of thought, it's pretty much mages versus everyone else.

Very well put and I agree with you. Nothing is exactly the same as anything else with the possible exception of quantum entanglement.

But that doesn't mean they can't draw on the same artistic imagery. That's what I mainly created this thread for.

[iOnlySignIn]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

No good allusion to the French Revolution, after all, can really go by without pointing out that it led directly to The Reign of Terror and then the Napoleonic Empire.

You don't want your Reign of Terror or your Deanic Empire in DA3? 

Seems like it's the perfect opportunity to me.

[iOnlySignIn]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Historically speaking, Hawke's trip to the Gallows on the boat and Washington's crossing of the Delaware on Christmas couldn't be more different.

Washington's army had just been thrown out of New York in spectacular fashion (The Battle of Long Island), where they were nearly encircled and destroyed, potentially ending the war right there. After a narrow escape the army was chased completely out of New York and then out of New Jersey by General Sir William Howe. But this being the 18th century, practical issues as well as tradition dictated that armies took the winters off. Satisfied in his near-total victory, Howe withdrew the bulk of his forces north and left a rear guard of soldiers including Hessian (German) mercenaries at the bank of the Delaware to shadow the remnants of Washington's army.

Washington, always prone to advocate bold decisive movements sometimes to his peril, pulled off a logistical miracle and managed to silently transfer his troops over the river in the middle of the night during one of the coldest winters in history to attack a willfully ignorant and unprepared Hessian detachment at Trenton in one of the most lopsided victories of the entire war. The victory itself would be of middling importance given the numbers involved, but given the consistent drubbing the Americans had taken for several months meant it - along with the Battle of Princeton days later - was an important moral victory.

So how does Washington crossing the Delaware compare to Hawke's trip to the Gallows?

Well, there's a boat.

It's just a picture. It's not meant to be a realistic representation of history (even the star-spangled banner in the picture didn't actually exist at the time). It is meant to arouse emotions in the audience - a purpose which BioWare shares in the making of DA3.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 02 décembre 2012 - 12:52 .

[iOnlySignIn]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

That said, Anders himself used his fair share of revolutionary rhetoric, mostly in the scene where he declares his intentions before and after the Chantry explodes.

He (and others after him) needs to be more eloquent. Surely the writers of BioWare cannot run out of eloquence.

[iOnlySignIn]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Listing characters in the Dragon Age universe who aren't myopic or cryptic about what they know would be near-impossible.

Varric. Zevran.

Who are my top 2 favorite characters for a reason.

[iOnlySignIn]

Herr Uhl wrote...

I don't see how it could be akin to the American revolution (war of attrition where the Brits concluded to bugger off after a while) or the French/October revolutions due to lack of popular support. Well, at least from what I've seen in the games, there isn't much popular support.

That's why more rhetoric is needed.

There is one source popular support comes from: Propaganda.

[iOnlySignIn]

Wulfram wrote...

I wouldn't want the rhetoric to get to modern, or even 18th century. That would clash with the medieval setting a fair bit. I'd like to see more attempts to justify their rebellion through scriptural citation - as Anders does a bit if you've rivalled him - than appeals to natural law or liberty, equality and fraternity.

The setting is only partly medieval. Thedas has many modern aspects (it has to, to appeal to a modern audience), such as

- Argument of Human Rights. This is what the entire Mage rebellion is based on - a modern concept.

- Racism - again, a very modern instead of medieval concept.

- LGBT acceptance - remarkably modern. Almost futuristic, if you ask me.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 02 décembre 2012 - 12:53 .

[Herr Uhl]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

I don't see how it could be akin to the American revolution (war of attrition where the Brits concluded to bugger off after a while) or the French/October revolutions due to lack of popular support. Well, at least from what I've seen in the games, there isn't much popular support.

That's why more rhetoric is needed.

There is one source popular support comes from: Propaganda.

They're not claiming to have the goal of improving the lot of the "common man". Getting them to turn against their main religion with no perks for them would be a hard sell.

[iOnlySignIn]

Herr Uhl wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

I don't see how it could be akin to the American revolution (war of attrition where the Brits concluded to bugger off after a while) or the French/October revolutions due to lack of popular support. Well, at least from what I've seen in the games, there isn't much popular support.

That's why more rhetoric is needed.

There is one source popular support comes from: Propaganda.

They're not claiming to have the goal of improving the lot of the "common man". Getting them to turn against their main religion with no perks for them would be a hard sell.

Indeed. A (somewhat) different argument is needed.

How did Martin Luther King Jr. use his rhetoric to convince white people to support the civil rights of black people? We could use that. 

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 02 décembre 2012 - 01:00 .

[Herr Uhl]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

I don't see how it could be akin to the American revolution (war of attrition where the Brits concluded to bugger off after a while) or the French/October revolutions due to lack of popular support. Well, at least from what I've seen in the games, there isn't much popular support.

That's why more rhetoric is needed.

There is one source popular support comes from: Propaganda.

They're not claiming to have the goal of improving the lot of the "common man". Getting them to turn against their main religion with no perks for them would be a hard sell.

Indeed. A (somewhat) different argument is needed.

How did Martin Luther King Jr. use his rhetoric to convince white people to support the civil rights of black people? We could use that. 

I think you're somewhat screwed on the religious and American constitution angle.

[nightscrawl]

Herr Uhl wrote...

I think you're somewhat screwed on the religious and American constitution angle.

This is mainly about rhetoric though, and not the method actually used to exact change (Civil Rights legislation, passed by a majority white congress, for example). Unless I misunderstand you.

[Vit246]

*EDITS*

Down with the Templar fascists! Down with the Chantry bourgeoisie! Join us comrade mage! Rise up and overthrow your masters! Own the means of magic (production)! The Chantry is the opiate of the masses!
For the Revolution! Long live the Revolution!

Modifié par Vit246, 02 décembre 2012 - 05:14 .

[iOnlySignIn]

Vit246 wrote...

Down with the Templar fascists! Down with the Chantry bourgeoisie! Join us comrade mage! Rise up and overthrow your masters! Own the means of magic (production)! The Chantry is the opiate of the masses!
For the Revolution!

THAT's what I'm talking about!

My Inquisitor for DA3:



For a Red Thedas.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 02 décembre 2012 - 04:48 .

[Solmanian]

Anders was plenty revulotionary, bordering on anarchist. Also remember that thedas is set in a medieval setting. Dictatory is a picnic compare to feudalism. Not only does most rulers in thedas will have no qualms executing anyone even remotely supportive of basic human rights, let alone mage freedom; The majority of the population will think they were right in doing it. to look for freedom in a place that still has slavery (apparent or disguised like the dwarven commoners) is a fool's errand.

[Herr Uhl]

nightscrawl wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

I think you're somewhat screwed on the religious and American constitution angle.

This is mainly about rhetoric though, and not the method actually used to exact change (Civil Rights legislation, passed by a majority white congress, for example). Unless I misunderstand you.

They need some kind of argument to sway the masses. I don't really see where they'd get that from unless they radically change their goals.

You need some substance other than rhetoric to sway a population.

[Swagger7]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

Down with the Templar fascists! Down with the Chantry bourgeoisie! Join us comrade mage! Rise up and overthrow your masters! Own the means of magic (production)! The Chantry is the opiate of the masses!
For the Revolution!

THAT's what I'm talking about!

My Inquisitor for DA3:



For a Red Thedas.

Greetings Inquisitor Trotsky!  Watch out for templars with ice picks. 

Modifié par Swagger7, 03 décembre 2012 - 10:26 .