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Unfinished concepts: The Crucible


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#1
OdanUrr

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I'm afraid this post is rather on the long side so be on your guard. I don't think I need to say it but this is clearly my opinion on the subject of the Crucible and how it's integrated into the plot of ME3.

Now we know what purpose the Crucible serves, it's a superweapon introduced to solve the problem of the Reapers' existence, and while superweapons are not the most inspired of ideas, they're fairly popular in science fiction so I don't particularly have an issue with them. I do, however, have an issue with how they're integrated into the main story. This integration covers the following points:

1) Discovery
2) History
3) Physics

Each point in turn covers a set of basic questions. Discovery should answer how our heroes came to discover this ancient superweapon. It answers the who discovered it, why it makes sense within the narrative for that specific person to have discovered it; it answers the when, explaining why it was discovered at a specific moment in time and not before or after; and it also answers the how it was discovered, the circumstances or events that conspired to the device being found.

The History of the device answers questions related to its background. Who built the device? When? For what purpose? Why wasn't it used? If it was used, why didn't it work? How did it stay hidden for so long? This point provides some much needed context and it plays the more direct part in integrating the device to the universe. It tells us that it didn't come out of nowhere, someone created it for a specific purpose. It may be someone we know, grounding it further, but that doesn't necessarily have to be so.

And finally, the Physics part should answer the most basic question of all, how does the device work? This particular point carries a lot of weight because any explanation has to make sense within the confines of the universe created by the writers, thus completing the integration. In other words, it has to be believable based on our previous knowledge of how the universe works. If it introduces new rules, those rules need to be explained in terms we can understand.

To my mind, each point is crucial to making the introduction of a superweapon work. The key is making us believe that this device had always been part of the universe and that we simply hadn't discovered it yet. The writer needs to make us believe the device was a mystery awaiting discovery rather than a contraption invented for the sole purpose of rounding up the story.

With this in mind, let's play ME3.

Modifié par OdanUrr, 02 décembre 2012 - 03:56 .


#2
OdanUrr

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Point #1: Discovery

At the end of ME1, with our main protagonist fully aware of the threat the Reapers pose, Shepard promises to find a way to stop the Reapers. It is clear, to him at least, that merely engaging them in battle won't be enough. If Sovereign is anything to go by, they have better shields, better weapons, and better technology overall. Furthermore, they've been doing this for eons and they haven't been defeated yet. A solution, therefore, is required.

Unfortunately, this solution doesn't arrive until ME3. In ME2, Cerberus recruits you to put a stop to the Collectors, repurposed agents of the Reapers that are abducting human colonists in order to build a Human Reaper. Once this is done, however, you and the Illusive Man part ways and you turn yourself over to the Alliance off-camera. Six months later, ME3 finds you stuck in prison back on Earth.

Before going any further though, let's make something clear. In this analysis I am not considering any paid DLC as part of the main story. This is for a very simple reason, I believe that the core games should stand on their own, the story must be told within the confines of the core games. DLC can add to the lore, certainly, but it cannot take away some part that is key to our understanding of the main story. This applies to books and comics as well, in fact, it applies to any paid content outside of the standard games themselves. The Crucible is part of the main story, it's the key to defeating the Reapers, it's the very thing Shepard promised to find at the end of ME1. As a result, the standard version of ME3 should be able to cover the three points mentioned in my first post. Paid extra content can certainly expand on those points, but it mustn't be the only way we'll ever learn about them.

Okay, back to Mass Effect. The first obvious question that comes to mind is, why isn't Shepard searching for a way to stop the Reapers? Why did he decide to turn himself in? Surely the Reapers are the greater threat so unless he finds a way to stop them, a trial will be the least of his concerns. This is the first issue I find with the Crucible: Shepard is nowhere at all involved with its discovery. He contents himself to sit in a prison cell playing checkers with Vega while the Reapers are on their way to eradicate everything and everyone. Shepard is a prime candidate to be involved in the Crucible's discovery. He has the means (a fine ship and crew, not to mention the Cipher that would allow him to interact with ancient Prothean technology), the motive (he must find a way to stop the Reapers), and the opportunity (those six months he chose to spend in jail). If not Shepard, then who?

After the Reapers attack Earth and we find ourselves on the run, Hackett promptly contacts us to let us know he asked Liara to dig through the Prothean Archives on Mars in the hopes she would find something that would help us against the Reapers. This makes sense, after all, Liara is a Prothean expert so involving her is the sensible choice. But, really, what can she be expected to find? Surely the Archives were scoured immediately after the events of ME1 when people still thought Shepard had been right all along about the Reapers. Not to mention they had previously been examined at length by Council scientists. Maybe Shepard could've uncovered something else because of the Cipher but this is the first time he'll be going to Mars. Let us also remember it was only a small cache of data according to ME1. Surely there's nothing left there to help us?

Not so. Apparently, Liara has found plans for a device that should put an end to the Reaper threat. Fortunately, Shepard has the good sense to ask the obvious question, "We've known about the Archives for decades. Why now?" Liara's reply is, "Process of elimination, mixed with a little desperation." This is a woefully inadequate response. Yes, we've established Liara's a Prothean expert but many more experts have searched the Archives before and there was certainly not a small amount of desperation at the end of ME1. What makes Liara so uniquely suited for this task? Well, she is the Shadow Broker.

In ME2 you learn Liara's trying to take down the Shadow Broker. At the beginning of ME3, you learn Liara has now become the Shadow Broker. If you pay for LotSB, you can bridge the gap between the two. As such, she has access to information she previously hadn't which ultimately led her to the Crucible. Personally, I don't like it. The who makes some sense only if you factor in that Liara's the Shadow Broker, a fact that's completely useless for the rest of the game. The when doesn't make much sense as I've already established and the how is non-existent. Liara could at least explain what her search entailed, what was the clue that inspired her, what were the dangers involved, but she doesn't.
 
In short, the Crucible's Discovery can only be understood if you buy LotSB and Homeworld #4. Instead of working with a pre-existing element as was the Cipher, introduced in the core game, Liara is turned into the Shadow Broker in a DLC and the search that led her to the Crucible takes place in a comic. Furthermore, the main reason that prevents Shepard from taking part of this search is introduced in another piece of DLC.

Would it have been so hard to make ME2 revolve around the search for this ancient superweapon? It would've certainly served as a more convincing reason for why TIM invested heavily in resurrecting Shepard. Alas, let us move on.

Modifié par OdanUrr, 02 décembre 2012 - 03:53 .


#3
OdanUrr

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Point #2: History

Most of the context is passed down to us by two characters: Vendetta and the Catalyst. Vendetta can be found on Thessia, it's a Prothean VI modeled after the overseer of the Crucible Project. It explains that the Crucible was not designed by the Protheans but by some other ancient civilization and that many civilizations have since added to the original device. 

This puts us in a difficult position to know the original purpose of the device since we never learn who its creators were, not even from the Catalyst. This is not necessarily a must and, since the Reapers have been around for millions of years, it's possible that the knowledge of who the original creators were was simply lost (although the Catalyst admits knowing so... yeah). However, Vendetta does explain why it wasn't used: a group of separatists, believing the Reapers could be controlled, sabotaged construction of the device. This is an interesting, if somewhat contrived, parallel to Cerberus in ME3, where TIM believes the Reapers can be controlled through the Crucible.

However, the context is not without its flaws. For one, it doesn't answer the question of how knowledge of the device survived until our present day. If several civilizations had access to it, and presumably some built it, the Reapers must have been aware it managed to survive through several cycles. Armed with this knowledge, surely they must have tried their best to eradicate any and all information related to the construction of this device? 

ME3 tells us that the splinter group of Protheans who argued for control of the Reapers had been indoctrinated at the time. That would imply the Reapers knew about the Crucible. Even if they didn't know where the Crucible was being built or where the information for its construction was stored, wouldn't they have tried to eliminate all trace of the Protheans? Ilos survived because the Reapers didn't know it existed, but what about Mars? The Catalyst admits that the Reapers didn't destroy humans because they were too primitive in the previous cycle. That must have put them in the vicinity of Earth at some point and, therefore, in the vicinity of Mars. How come the Reapers didn't discover the Prothean Archives on Mars then?

Some time ago I read a theory that proposed the Charon Relay had been frozen/deactivated so the Reapers wouldn't discover humans and, more importantly, the Prothean Archives on Mars. In the context of ME3, this theory would've made sense, lending credence to the idea that something of vital importance was hidden on Mars. And yet, the Catalyst seems to negate this by saying the Reapers were aware of the humans' existence during the last purge.

Another issue stems from this idea that the Reapers can be controlled through the Crucible. Where did it come from? Let's assume (and this is most likely a wrong assumption) that the Protheans knew exactly how the device worked (doubtful, or Vendetta would've probably told us) and this gave them some unique insight into repurposing the device to control the Reapers. Fine. How does TIM know this? In ME3, nobody knows how the Crucible works, no scientist involved with the construction of the Crucible even poses a theory on what it'll do. So, if some of the finest minds in the galaxy can't make heads or tails of it, what makes TIM think he knows enough of the device to ascertain he can use it to control the Reapers?

The only connection the game hints strongly at is that indoctrinated agents believe the device can control the Reapers. Okay, why? How does indoctrination tie to controlling the Reapers? Saren was indoctrinated and he believed it was pointless to even defy the Reapers, that's why he proposed making an alliance of sorts, to voluntarily submit and become their agents in the galaxy. Why wouldn't the Reapers plant this thought in all indoctrinated agents? That there is no hope in defeating the Reapers, that countless others have tried and failed (even those who had managed to build the Crucible), that submission is preferable to extinction. Why would the Reapers plant the thought that it's better to use the Crucible to control the Reapers rather than destroy them? Why would the Reapers plant a thought referring to the Crucible at all? Would they really take a chance and let their agents know there's a weapon capable of destroying them?

Perhaps it has to do with TIM's psyche. Perhaps he, unlike Saren, would never capitulate to the Reapers and so had to be persuaded that he could control them instead, so that he would take control of the device before it could be used to destroy the Reapers. Once in the hands of an indoctrinated agent, the Reapers could simply turn it into space dust. It's a strong possibility. ME3 makes it clear that TIM wants to make humans the dominant race in the galaxy and considers the Reapers to be the means to that end.

Nonetheless, TIM is also a practical man, he would need evidence that the Crucible could actually control the Reapers before committing to such an agenda. If he had found some ancient record of a previous version of the Crucible that had managed to control a Reaper, maybe that would've been enough to convince him. But he shows no such evidence to Shepard, which could have only strengthened his case. His experiments on creating and controlling Reaper forces are distinctly unrelated to the Crucible and verifiably unsanctioned by the Reapers themselves, not to mention they seem to date back to ME1. Furthermore, they are relatively successful. But can those experiments lead to controlling a Reaper? And, if so, why does he need the Crucible at all?

My opinion is that TIM's obsession with controlling the Reapers was not implanted by the Reapers but probably fueled by them. Bear in mind that this is an incredibly risky gambit because TIM is very much his own man, capable of hiding plans from the Reapers themselves. Of course, this would suggest that TIM wasn't really indoctrinated until he chose to implant himself towards the end of ME3 and that everything he did throughout most of ME3 was really part of his own machiavellian agenda. In any case, that still doesn't explain the missing link between controlling the Reapers and the Crucible.

And what were the Protheans' reasons for controlling the Reapers? To become the dominant race in the galaxy? This is a bit of a trick question that could be answered, if you bought the "From Ashes" DLC. FA introduces Javik, an actual Prothean that provides some much needed insight into their civilization and culture.

Damn, I promised I wouldn't use DLC in this analysis. Don't worry, it doesn't count because Javik doesn't actually know anything about the Crucible. He does, however, tell us that the Prothean Empire was comprised of multiple species and all were called Protheans. Javik's an example of the dominant species. One could speculate that the Prothean Separatists might have been an oppressed faction with impressive scientific advances that would have required them to help in the construction of the Crucible. Like TIM, they might have seen their chance to turn the tables on Javik's species and become the dominant ones through control of the Reapers.

Bear in mind this is purely speculation. Again, much like TIM, no reason is given for why the Separatists believed the Reapers could be controlled. They were indoctrinated, that's supposedly reason enough.

Modifié par OdanUrr, 02 décembre 2012 - 03:47 .


#4
OdanUrr

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Point #3: Physics

How does the Crucible work?

The simple answer: nobody knows.

Liara speculates that the device is capable of releasing tremendous amounts of energy, but so could the engine of a starship. Maybe the Protheans were building a massive starship with technology that could rival that of the Reapers? 

Hackett clearly disagrees since he compares it to the atomic bomb created by the Manhattan Project. It's an unjust comparison in that he uses it to illustrate how scientists are as clueless now in regards to the Crucible as they were back then in regards to the atomic bomb, because at least the scientists back then had theories on what the bomb would do and how it worked. In fact, the device was tested before deployment. In ME3 it seems transparent that the scientists don't know what the heck they're building.

So, what could it be? If it is a bomb, as per Hackett's comparison, then even if it's capable of releasing tremendous amounts of energy, it must be detonated where it'll do the most damage. The most likely scenario would be to lure the majority of the Reapers someplace and then detonate the device, using the massive fleet Shepard put together to engage the rest. In this scenario, the Crucible would balance the scales a bit, nothing more, it'd give the galaxy a fighting chance.

Later in the game, however, we learn that the Crucible was designed to operate in conjunction with the Citadel. That's very interesting considering the Citadel is a relay itself and has control over the entire relay network. Here, the comparison with "Stargate: SG-1" is obvious enough.

In episode 816, "Reckoning," an army of advanced robots known as Replicators attack the galaxy, intent on destroying every civilization in search of raw materials (I'm oversimplifying it a bit). SG-1 discovers a weapon created by the Ancients on the planet Dakara, capable of reducing all matter to its basic elemental components, and/or restructuring it. SG-1 then reconfigures the device to emit a disruptor wave that targets the bonds keeping a Replicator in one piece. Since the device has limited range, however, they also reprogram the Stargates so the disruptor wave travels from gate to gate, thus covering the entire galaxy and destroying all Replicator forces.

The Replicators also have a leader figure that has complete control over them, and in the episode there's a mental duel between Daniel Jackson and this leader for control of the Replicator forces (I'm oversimplifying again). Jackson ultimately wins but the knowledge overwhelms him so that he's only able to maintain control for a few minutes. However, it buys SG-1 enough time to activate the superweapon and destroy all Replicators.

In light of ME3's ending, I'd say the Dakara superweapon most closely resembles the actual operation of the Crucible. However, I'd still like to mention another superweapon also introduced in the Stargate Universe (not the series, mind you). This particular superweapon was introduced in episode 510 of "Stargate: Atlantis." Once again, it was a device created by the Ancients to put an end to their war with the Wraith (did I mention they also created the Replicators to end the Wraith? Yes, these guys erred big). Unlike the Dakara superweapon, the Attero device is not limited by range, it can be triggered anywhere in the galaxy and its effects will be felt everywhere. But how did it work?

The Attero device was designed to disrupt the subspace frequencies associated with Wraith hyperdrive systems, causing Wraith ships to be destroyed as they passed through a hyperspace window. This explanation worked because it had previously been established in earlier seasons that Lantean (Ancient) hyperdrive technology was radically different from Wraith hyperdrive technology, meaning only Wraith ships would blow up. Even if the Wraith figured it out and chose not to travel through hyperspace, they'd be sitting ducks for the Lantean ships. 

Then why wasn't it used, what's the catch? In the words of Rodney McKay, "Ah, well, the catch is that Janus ran a three day test about ten thousand years ago and then shut the whole project down because of 'unforeseen side effects'." Those unforeseen side effects meant that active stargates would blow up as long as the Attero device was operational. Like I said before, when these guys made mistakes, they thought big.

Perhaps the Crucible could be a blend of both devices. It would function on a similar principle to the Attero device, targeting some technology that's unique to the Reapers, thus negating their ability to wage war in some form or another, but it would be short-range, requiring the use of the relay network to extend its influence, like the Dakara superweapon. In fact, it could possibly target the Reapers own version of a hyperdrive. After all, the Reapers managed to get to our galaxy surprisingly fast considering they didn't make use of the relay network. This would seem to suggest some advanced form of hyperdrive technology.

Enough speculation, why not simply deduce the Crucible's operation through the choices presented to us by the Catalyst? To begin with, the Catalyst states that the Crucible changed it and created "new possibilities." I thought it was an interesting statement because it seems to suggest the Catalyst is capable of enacting one scenario on his own, without the need of the Crucible. 

In my mind, the only possible scenario he could conjure up is Control. After all, what’s Control other than some master override command transmitted all over the galaxy? For some inexplicable reason, however, the price tag in this case is Shepard’s life. I don’t mind having Shepard die, but I would appreciate some logical explanation as to why it’s necessary. In any event, this would mean that the "new possibilities" are, in fact, Destroy and Synthesis.

So, what does Destroy do? In the Destroy ending, the Crucible will inevitably destroy the Geth as well as the Reapers and will also affect anything that can be associated with the word “technology.” The only thing that makes some sense in my mind is if it worked after a massive EMP-like pulse, rendering anything technological useless. The result of such a pulse, however, would be too staggering to even imagine and the casualties would likely be more than just the Geth. For instance, just imagine what would happen to the fleet when their life support systems failed.

But why? This I would like to know. Let us assume the Crucible was built solely, or mostly, to destroy the Reapers. Why wouldn’t its creators design it solely for this purpose? Or was it an unintended side effect, like the stargates blowing up with the Attero device? Even then it makes little sense, not every piece of technology works on the same physical or mechanical principle. If the Crucible can destroy all technology, or at least render it useless, it must attack something common to all technology. 

I can’t see the connection that will destroy the Geth either. The way I see it, the side effect with the Geth was intended as a price tag: you can destroy the Reapers, at the cost of destroying the Geth. It might make some sort of perverse symbolical sense but little else. A more realistic unintended consequence could have been the triggering of the Crucible resulting in a power build-up (and subsequent explosion) that would have harmed the Earth’s atmosphere at best, or blown up the planet at worst. That would put your other choices in a better light, wouldn’t it? You can save the galaxy at the cost of your planet, how about it? Is that a price you would be willing to pay?

As for Synthesis, it makes no sense the way it's presented. Any sort of organic-synthetic integration would require some form of bioengineering I suppose, similar to DXHR’s human augmentation. Shepard was resurrected in ME2 through a process similar to Jensen’s, and with a lot less raw material, so I’d say the ME universe is fairly advanced in this department. Hence the question we need to ask ourselves is, really, what sort of integration is the Catalyst talking about? Truly, I have no idea. Perhaps the Catalyst intends for the galaxy to share in some sort of collective hive mind like the Geth and the Reapers, to have multiple species unite under one civilization. Would this put an end to the Reapers’ purpose? 

I guess it depends. The Reapers were built to prevent organics from creating advanced synthetics that would (eventually) turn on their creators. Why is it that organics create synthetics? Well, the most basic answer I can think of is so they can do the tasks that organics can't or won't do and that still require a great deal of complex thinking. 

The "can't" part is simple enough to answer, we need only build better bodies for organics, bodies capable of working in the most hazardous conditions and with varying degrees of strength, speed, intelligence, etc. Since "one size fits all" wouldn't exactly work, bodies would need to be upgraded to suit the task, but these upgrades shouldn't be of a permanent nature. 

As for the "won't" part, I'm not sure I can provide a satisfactory answer. I suppose the "hive mind" would reinforce the notion that all tasks are equally important and assign hybrids to work on different tasks. Perhaps this civilization would still require machines of some kind to do the tasks it simply refuses to do. 

In any event, the point is that, Synthesis, as the ultimate solution to the organic-synthetic problem, must first answer either one of two questions: how it would end the creation of synthetics; or how it would stop the created from turning on their creators. As for the latter, it would also first have to answer why the created turn on their creators. The more variable the reason, the more difficult it'll be to devise a solution capable of tackling them all.

Still, I hope I've made it clearer that Synthesis, or some version of it, is not something that can be carried out simply by transmitting an energy pulse galaxy-wide. It would require the construction of a new hybrid body for both organics and synthetics. The Catalyst could've offered this to Shepard, to become the first new hybrid, arguing only he would survive the process for some reason or other (Shepard's special, right?). The Catalyst could've offered a compromise: if Shepard became the herald of this new civilization, the Reapers would retreat and observe this development. I'm simply suggesting things off the top of my mind here, I haven't entirely thought this scenario through to its conclusion.

In short, the evidence would suggest Bioware themselves have no idea how the Crucible works. The choices provided at the end don't naturally flow from the inner workings of this superweapon but rather from the writers' desire to introduce a different concept as the reason behind our struggle: that the Reapers exist to protect us from our creations eventually turning on us and destroying us; that the only solution to this problem is to become one with our creations and for them to become one with us in Synthesis; that Destroy will also result in the destruction of any technological creation that might harm us in the immediate future; and that Control turns us into the Catalyst so we might be free to seek our own solution to this problem.

That's the main issue I have with Point #3 and it also rounds up this analysis quite nicely. Not only does ME3 not explain how the Crucible works, but the consequences of using the Crucible are manufactured around the creator-created problem. As a result, the Crucible is no longer a machine with a set of physical rules that govern its function but rather a narrative device introduced by the writers to push forward an agenda we didn't even know existed.

Modifié par OdanUrr, 07 décembre 2012 - 11:55 .


#5
essarr71

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Future first!

#6
OdanUrr

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essarr71 wrote...

Future first!


And only.:lol:

#7
Kabooooom

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Interesting read, I would just like to add one thing under your third heading: the original function of the Crucible was clearly to destroy the Reapers. In the very beginning of the game, TIM tells you he believes that he can use the Crucible to control the Reapers instead. Javik also tells you that the Crucible failed in his time because a splinter group, who wanted to control the Reapers, attempted to sabotage it.

I think it is clear that Control was not an initial function of the Crucible, it requires subsequent altering to make it a viable option. Although it was poorly elucidated on, largely because of crappy writing, it appears as if TIM intended to use the Sanctuary data to implement into the Crucible (or, perhaps, on the Citadel end of things) an option to Control the Reapers, which is probably why he physically went to the Citadel.

Synthesis is completely out of left field though. It's like they just added it on as an afterthought. At least the prior two options were heavily foreshadowed. I don't even know where to begin with that.

#8
KingZayd

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I hate the endings and haven't played DLC, but I can make some suggestions for the history part:

The Leviathans developed the Crucible (for whatever reasons they had. Maybe it was their way of beating the Reapers without having to reveal their existence. Maybe they had other, more sinister plans). They've been ensuring that the plans get passed on to subsequent cycles.

They don't care about each individual cycle. They're content to wait for however long it takes. They know that eventually it will work. And then they'll be able to reassert their dominance over the galaxy.

#9
essarr71

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OdanUrr wrote...

essarr71 wrote...

Future first!


And only.:lol:


On a more serious note: What Kaboooom said.

Synthesis throws the entire logic out the window.  

#10
WhiteKnyght

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OdanUrr wrote...

Point #1: Discovery

At the end of ME1, with our main protagonist fully aware of the threat the Reapers pose, Shepard promises to find a way to stop the Reapers. It is clear, to him at least, that merely engaging them in battle won't be enough. If Sovereign is anything to go by, they have better shields, better weapons, and better technology overall. Furthermore, they've been doing this for eons and they haven't been defeated yet. A solution, therefore, is required.

Unfortunately, this solution doesn't arrive until ME3. In ME2, Cerberus recruits you to put a stop to the Collectors, repurposed agents of the Reapers that are abducting human colonists in order to build a Human Reaper. Once this is done, however, you and the Illusive Man part ways and you turn yourself over to the Alliance off-camera. Six months later, ME3 finds you stuck in prison back on Earth.

Before going any further though, let's make something clear. In this analysis I am not considering any paid DLC as part of the main story. This is for a very simple reason, I believe that the core games should stand on their own, the story must be told within the confines of the core games. DLC can add to the lore, certainly, but it cannot take away some part that is key to our understanding of the main story. This applies to books and comics as well, in fact, it applies to any paid content outside of the standard games themselves. The Crucible is part of the main story, it's the key to defeating the Reapers, it's the very thing Shepard promised to find at the end of ME1. As a result, the standard version of ME3 should be able to cover the three points mentioned in my first post. Paid extra content can certainly expand on those points, but it mustn't be the only way we'll ever learn about them.

Okay, back to Mass Effect. The first obvious question that comes to mind is, why isn't Shepard searching for a way to stop the Reapers? Why did he decide to turn himself in? Surely the Reapers are the greater threat so unless he finds a way to stop them, a trial will be the least of his concerns. This is the first issue I find with the Crucible: Shepard is nowhere at all involved with its discovery. He contents himself to sit in a prison cell playing checkers with Vega while the Reapers are on their way to eradicate everything and everyone. Shepard is a prime candidate to be involved in the Crucible's discovery. He has the means (a fine ship and crew, not to mention the Cipher that would allow him to interact with ancient Prothean technology), the motive (he must find a way to stop the Reapers), and the opportunity (those six months he chose to spend in jail). If not Shepard, then who?

After the Reapers attack Earth and we find ourselves on the run, Hackett promptly contacts us to let us know he asked Liara to dig through the Prothean Archives on Mars in the hopes she would find something that would help us against the Reapers. This makes sense, after all, Liara is a Prothean expert so involving her is the sensible choice. But, really, what can she be expected to find? Surely the Archives were scoured immediately after the events of ME1 when people still thought Shepard had been right all along about the Reapers. Not to mention they had previously been examined at length by Council scientists. Maybe Shepard could've uncovered something else because of the Cipher but this is the first time he'll be going to Mars. Let us also remember it was only a small cache of data according to ME1. Surely there's nothing left there to help us?

Not so. Apparently, Liara has found plans for a device that should put an end to the Reaper threat. Fortunately, Shepard has the good sense to ask the obvious question, "We've known about the Archives for decades. Why now?" Liara's reply is, "Process of elimination, mixed with a little desperation." This is a woefully inadequate response. Yes, we've established Liara's a Prothean expert but many more experts have searched the Archives before and there was certainly not a small amount of desperation at the end of ME1. What makes Liara so uniquely suited for this task? Well, she is the Shadow Broker.

In ME2 you learn Liara's trying to take down the Shadow Broker. At the beginning of ME3, you learn Liara has now become the Shadow Broker. If you pay for LotSB, you can bridge the gap between the two. As such, she has access to information she previously hadn't which ultimately led her to the Crucible. Personally, I don't like it. The who makes some sense only if you factor in that Liara's the Shadow Broker, a fact that's completely useless for the rest of the game. The when doesn't make much sense as I've already established and the how is non-existent. Liara could at least explain what her search entailed, what was the clue that inspired her, what were the dangers involved, but she doesn't.
 
In short, the Crucible's Discovery can only be understood if you buy LotSB and Homeworld #4. Instead of working with a pre-existing element as was the Cipher, introduced in the core game, Liara is turned into the Shadow Broker in a DLC and the search that led her to the Crucible takes place in a comic. Furthermore, the main reason that prevents Shepard from taking part of this search is introduced in another piece of DLC.

Would it have been so hard to make ME2 revolve around the search for this ancient superweapon? It would've certainly served as a more convincing reason for why TIM invested heavily in resurrecting Shepard. Alas, let us move on.


The Crucible was hinted at in LotSB as well. She mentioned the old Broker was looking into the Protheans and seemingly believed there was 'something more out there'

Which is probably what gave Liara her start on the Crucible.

#11
WhiteKnyght

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OdanUrr wrote...

That's the main issue I have with Point #3 and it also rounds up this analysis quite nicely. Not only does ME3 not explain how the Crucible works, but the consequences of using the Crucible are manufactured around the creator-created problem. As a result, the Crucible is no longer a machine with a set of physical rules that govern its function but rather a narrative device introduced by the writers to push forward an agenda we didn't even know existed.


The only agenda we didn't know existed beforehand was synthesis.

Everybody wants to destroy the Reapers.

The Illusive Man is a control freak. His actions should have been very predictable when you play Overlord and see that he was trying to dominate the Geth.

The reason we didn't know about synthesis was, to be blunt, we didn't learn what the Reapers even existed for until the end of ME3. They were an enigma of lovecraftian proportion before. Though when Harbinger said "That which you know as Reapers are your salvation through destruction" pretty much confirmed they believed they had good intentions despite slaughtering everyone.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 02 décembre 2012 - 05:18 .


#12
ioannisdenton

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OP forgot to include  #4: Asspull

#13
OdanUrr

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The Grey Nayr wrote...

The only agenda we didn't know existed beforehand was synthesis.

Everybody wants to destroy the Reapers.


That's not the agenda I was talking about. Yes, every choice stops the Reapers but consider the consequences. In Destroy you also destroy synthetics. That only makes sense if you factor in the creator-created dilemma: you're destroying synthetics in order to buy more time before they turn against you. I don't think the Crucible's designers had that in mind.

In Control you become the Catalyst and choose to help the galaxy rebuild. The Reapers are still around so if the Catalyst was right and synthetics eventually turn on organics, you'll still be able to step in. You're also free to find your own solution to that particular problem.

And finally, Synthesis allegedly solves the creator-created problem. As a result, it stops the Reapers.

That's what I meant by these choices and their consequences being built around the creator-created problem and not as a result of how the Crucible works.

Confusing?:?

#14
OdanUrr

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Kabooooom wrote...

Interesting read, I would just like to add one thing under your third heading: the original function of the Crucible was clearly to destroy the Reapers. In the very beginning of the game, TIM tells you he believes that he can use the Crucible to control the Reapers instead. Javik also tells you that the Crucible failed in his time because a splinter group, who wanted to control the Reapers, attempted to sabotage it.

I think it is clear that Control was not an initial function of the Crucible, it requires subsequent altering to make it a viable option. Although it was poorly elucidated on, largely because of crappy writing, it appears as if TIM intended to use the Sanctuary data to implement into the Crucible (or, perhaps, on the Citadel end of things) an option to Control the Reapers, which is probably why he physically went to the Citadel.

Synthesis is completely out of left field though. It's like they just added it on as an afterthought. At least the prior two options were heavily foreshadowed. I don't even know where to begin with that.


How do we know that when nobody knows how it works or what it does? It is heavily implied that the Crucible's original purpose was to destroy the Reapers, yes, but there's no definitive answer to that question. I do believe destroy was the original purpose for the reasons I explained in the OP.

About Control not being a viable option, I do believe the Catalyst is capable of enacting said choice without need of the Crucible. Doesn't the Catalyst say that the Crucible created new possibilities? Doesn't that suggest that at least one possibility already existed before the Crucible was put into play?

Yeah, it would've made more sense if TIM tried to take over the Citadel after he learns it's the Catalyst, right?

Indeed, Synthesis doesn't make sense on many levels. First, it's not explained how it would be implemented. Second, even if it were implemented, can we know for sure that it'll stop the Reapers? (again for the reasons explained in the OP).

#15
Kabooooom

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How do we know that when nobody knows how it works or what it does? It is heavily implied that the Crucible's original purpose was to destroy the Reapers, yes, but there's no definitive answer to that question. I do believe destroy was the original purpose for the reasons I explained in the OP.


We can deduce it for several reasons. 1) TIM is actively searching for a way to make control viable to use in conjunction with the Crucible, implying that he at the very least understands that the initial function was not to control the Reapers. 2) The Catalyst tells you that "you have allowed additional solutions to be a possibility", specifically synthesis, which is not offered unless the galaxy is sufficiently ready - this has nothing to do with the Crucible's viability. So Synthesis was not a built-in function of the Crucible. 3) Vendetta tells you that a splinter group wanted to 'control' the Reapers, which sabotaged the Crucible project, implying that this was not a goal of the project. 4) In light of (1), (2) specifically (3 is circumstantial), and the fact that the Control interface is not on the Crucible but rather the Citadel, it is reasonable to conclude that it too was not a function of the Crucible.

Which leaves Destroy. Which makes a hell of a lot of sense, if you think about it. Why would they create a superweapon that did anything else, except destroy the threat itself?

About Control not being a viable option, I do believe the Catalyst is capable of enacting said choice without need of the Crucible.


Although this makes 100% logical sense, it is still shown using the power of the Crucible to take effect by spreading throughout the galaxy. The question is, why? Wouldn't Shep just have to become the new Catalyst, and control the Reapers from the Citadel? Why would the Crucible be necessary for that? But apparently it is.

Doesn't that suggest that at least one possibility already existed before the Crucible was put into play?


Yes, it suggests one possibility existed - and that one possibility was the harvest, presumably.

It's like if you had a fruit stand but only sold apples, but now you have branched out and are selling oranges and lemons. If someone asks "do you just have apples to choose from?", you would answer "we used to just have apples, but now we have a few more choices".

Plus, if that were the case, then Cerberus' actions are completely inane and nonsensical. They only make sense in the context that they were necessary to make control a viable option for the Crucible, which is exactly what TIM tells you he is planning to do anyways.

Modifié par Kabooooom, 03 décembre 2012 - 10:51 .


#16
OdanUrr

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Kabooooom wrote...

We can deduce it for several reasons. 1) TIM is actively searching for a way to make control viable to use in conjunction with the Crucible, implying that he at the very least understands that the initial function was not to control the Reapers. 2) The Catalyst tells you that "you have allowed additional solutions to be a possibility", specifically synthesis, which is not offered unless the galaxy is sufficiently ready - this has nothing to do with the Crucible's viability. So Synthesis was not a built-in function of the Crucible. 3) Vendetta tells you that a splinter group wanted to 'control' the Reapers, which sabotaged the Crucible project, implying that this was not a goal of the project. 4) In light of (1), (2) specifically (3 is circumstantial), and the fact that the Control interface is not on the Crucible but rather the Citadel, it is reasonable to conclude that it too was not a function of the Crucible.

Which leaves Destroy. Which makes a hell of a lot of sense, if you think about it. Why would they create a superweapon that did anything else, except destroy the threat itself?


I agree that deduction should lead to Destroy (or some form of it) being the device's original purpose. I still have issue with how exactly TIM's aware of this.


Kabooooom wrote...

Although this makes 100% logical sense, it is still shown using the power of the Crucible to take effect by spreading throughout the galaxy. The question is, why? Wouldn't Shep just have to become the new Catalyst, and control the Reapers from the Citadel? Why would the Crucible be necessary for that? But apparently it is.


Yes, I'm still trying to figure this one out.


Kabooooom wrote...

Yes, it suggests one possibility existed - and that one possibility was the harvest, presumably.

It's like if you had a fruit stand but only sold apples, but now you have branched out and are selling oranges and lemons. If someone asks "do you just have apples to choose from?", you would answer "we used to just have apples, but now we have a few more choices".

Plus, if that were the case, then Cerberus' actions are completely inane and nonsensical. They only make sense in the context that they were necessary to make control a viable option for the Crucible, which is exactly what TIM tells you he is planning to do anyways.


Huh, never thought about it that way. You're most likely correct.

#17
MrGMM88

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tldr but why couldnt they have used the klendagon weapon? It was in ME2 and cerberus had it. Go and use that.

#18
KingZayd

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MrGMM88 wrote...

tldr but why couldnt they have used the klendagon weapon? It was in ME2 and cerberus had it. Go and use that.


It exploded or something. They did not have the weapon, they only figured out what it shot (the Derelict Reaper), and maybe a planet or moon?

#19
MrGMM88

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KingZayd wrote...

MrGMM88 wrote...

tldr but why couldnt they have used the klendagon weapon? It was in ME2 and cerberus had it. Go and use that.


It exploded or something. They did not have the weapon, they only figured out what it shot (the Derelict Reaper), and maybe a planet or moon?



The weapon was defunct so fix it. Use your writing skills make it out to be a prototype crucible or something like that.
The important thing is that it was there and already mentioned.

Its not something that you would pull out of your butt in the first half hour just because you forgot that the reapers are coming and you need something to beat them

#20
Lance Gardner

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Reading this, it occurs to me (not for the first time) that the fans are far more deeply invested in Mass Effect's world and lore than the Bioware writers, and that they also have far better ideas as to where to take the series. Well thought out and argued, good OP.

#21
OdanUrr

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KingZayd wrote...

MrGMM88 wrote...

tldr but why couldnt they have used the klendagon weapon? It was in ME2 and cerberus had it. Go and use that.


It exploded or something. They did not have the weapon, they only figured out what it shot (the Derelict Reaper), and maybe a planet or moon?


I know the wiki is not the most reliable of sources but here it says the following:

"It is revealed by the Illusive Man that an Alliance Survey Team discovered that the Great Rift Valley was caused by a strike from a mass accelerator round. The original target of that round was the Derelict Reaper, which was hit and disabled 37 million years ago. No trace remains of the race that fired the round. However, he also indicates that both the weapon and the target have been located, mentioning in passing that the weapon was defunct."

I suppose they could've made it operational if they'd put their minds to it.

#22
KingZayd

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OdanUrr wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

MrGMM88 wrote...

tldr but why couldnt they have used the klendagon weapon? It was in ME2 and cerberus had it. Go and use that.


It exploded or something. They did not have the weapon, they only figured out what it shot (the Derelict Reaper), and maybe a planet or moon?


I know the wiki is not the most reliable of sources but here it says the following:

"It is revealed by the Illusive Man that an Alliance Survey Team discovered that the Great Rift Valley was caused by a strike from a mass accelerator round. The original target of that round was the Derelict Reaper, which was hit and disabled 37 million years ago. No trace remains of the race that fired the round. However, he also indicates that both the weapon and the target have been located, mentioning in passing that the weapon was defunct."

I suppose they could've made it operational if they'd put their minds to it.


It was found in a giant crater, and only took on 1 Reaper, which wasn't even completely destroyed. Maybe they could make it operational, but they wouldn't be able to mass produce it, or make it much more useful.

#23
OdanUrr

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KingZayd wrote...

It was found in a giant crater, and only took on 1 Reaper, which wasn't even completely destroyed. Maybe they could make it operational, but they wouldn't be able to mass produce it, or make it much more useful.


Point, they have Thanix cannons for that, right?

#24
Clayless

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Basically one laser isn't going to do much unless they manage to convince all the Reapers to line up in single file infront of it in 3-Dimensional space, no matter how powerful it is.

#25
KingZayd

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OdanUrr wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

It was found in a giant crater, and only took on 1 Reaper, which wasn't even completely destroyed. Maybe they could make it operational, but they wouldn't be able to mass produce it, or make it much more useful.


Point, they have Thanix cannons for that, right?


They downsized them for ships, so they're not as poweful.

That said, they could have looked at the technology and built bigger more poweful ones with more range suited to planetary defence, whether on the ground or in satellite form.