82 réponses à ce sujet

[StElmo]

www.youtube.com/watch

^ Amazing video above. Hope this advice is taken

--

I've been studying story recently, and discovered this man, who is a Story Doctor for hollywood.

He pretty much outlines the rescrictions required to tell a good story - his work and depth of understanding is outstanding.

As an aspiring writer, I wonder what the writers at BioWare think of McKee?

www.youtube.com/watch

I really hope that DA3 adheres to many of the principles he stipulates, because all of the things he talks about reflect why I like and don't like many stories in games (amongst other mediums as well).

Modifié par StElmo, 02 décembre 2012 - 10:38 .

[FaWa]

Is DA2 better than DAO? Never in a million years. But yea I'd like to play devil's advocate and defend DA2 a bit. 


 I'm really hoping the storyline of DA3 is a big cluster****. DAO's over arching story was too cliche and relied too much on its great sub plots and fantastic characters. DA2 had a good over arching story but nothing else.

This may be shocking but my favorite moment of the DA franchise isn't from DAO... Its when Anders blows up the chantry in DA2. It was rediculous and shocking and so over the top. And above all it showed the DA writers had serious balls to make the go-to LI turn insane like that. (Although he was already insane so w/e) 

So yea, I hate the way all video game stories ARE THE SAME. If DA2 did anything right, it was that the story was different, had tons of "WTF DID I JUST WATCH" moments, and every character had some sort of pulse. So even though DAO had amazing characters and what not, it just had way too cliche of a story. DAO is my favorite game of all time, I've played it 10 times and I'll be the first to admit that. But DA2 definitely had its pros. 

[StElmo]

FaWa wrote...

Is DA2 better than DAO? Never in a million years. But yea I'd like to play devil's advocate and defend DA2 a bit. 

DA2 is a far better story than DA:O

The game is rushed, but from a base craft level, the writing is orders of magnitude better than DA:O, which has great characters but they are under utilized and the whole pacing and progression is dull.

You are right, Anders blowing up the Chantry is foreshadowed, it fits the character, it's tragic, it's cathartic, it has every single element you need for a good climax.

Excellent writing.

Modifié par StElmo, 02 décembre 2012 - 03:51 .

[syllogi]

Story is a really great resource for writers, even if they're not screenwriting. I have two copies in paperback, and one e-book version, because I'm weird like that.

And this thread reminded me that someone used Story in their critique of DA2 a while back: link...I don't know if I'd agree with all of it, especially since it's a review of only the first few hours, but it says something that many people regard McKee as a benchmark of how good stories are created.

I'd be willing to bet that the writers are familiar with him, and they're aware of the problems, story-wise (or story-structure-wise), that DA2 had. I think the idea of the unreliable narrator, and the story-within-a-story, had promise, but Stuff Happened. And they can't really talk about that Stuff.

I still enjoyed DA2, storywise, despite the problems, and I have hope for DA3, especially if they take their time and don't have to make any cuts that could affect quality.

[Maria Caliban]

The burning question:

What do the Dragon Age writers think of Film Critic Hulk?

[Direwolf0294]

I liked DA2, but I don't think the way the overall story was framed was very good. Each act by itself was decent. and the whole mage vs templar/chantry thing was a lot more interesting than the Darkspawn, but I feel BioWare did a poor job of tying all the acts together to craft a compelling narrative. You could skip act 1 and 2 and just play 3, or skip 1 and just play 2 and 3/skip 2 and just play 1 and 3, and you wouldn't lose out on much other than "Hawke's now rich" and "Hawke's now Champion", which gives the context of why people listen to what Hawke has to say, but neither of which felt like particular compelling ways to tie the acts together.

[StElmo]

syllogi wrote...

Story is a really great resource for writers, even if they're not screenwriting. I have two copies in paperback, and one e-book version, because I'm weird like that.

And this thread reminded me that someone used Story in their critique of DA2 a while back: link...I don't know if I'd agree with all of it, especially since it's a review of only the first few hours, but it says something that many people regard McKee as a benchmark of how good stories are created.

I'd be willing to bet that the writers are familiar with him, and they're aware of the problems, story-wise (or story-structure-wise), that DA2 had. I think the idea of the unreliable narrator, and the story-within-a-story, had promise, but Stuff Happened. And they can't really talk about that Stuff.

I still enjoyed DA2, storywise, despite the problems, and I have hope for DA3, especially if they take their time and don't have to make any cuts that could affect quality.

I found DA2 more engaging because of the use of those techniques. This guy just seems annoyed because he didn't get the blank slate DA:O he had been expecting.

That doesn't make the writers actions transparent. DA2 is much better because it uses those devices, not worse.

[StElmo]

Direwolf0294 wrote...

I liked DA2, but I don't think the way the overall story was framed was very good. Each act by itself was decent. and the whole mage vs templar/chantry thing was a lot more interesting than the Darkspawn, but I feel BioWare did a poor job of tying all the acts together to craft a compelling narrative. You could skip act 1 and 2 and just play 3, or skip 1 and just play 2 and 3/skip 2 and just play 1 and 3, and you wouldn't lose out on much other than "Hawke's now rich" and "Hawke's now Champion", which gives the context of why people listen to what Hawke has to say, but neither of which felt like particular compelling ways to tie the acts together.

I imagine this is more to do with time and budget issues with EA - the game was rushed, no doubt about it.

I personally think there are lots of hints to mages and templars in the acts, and with more refinement it would have foreshadowed nicely.

[upsettingshorts]

I was amused by his portrayal in Adaptation. Legit screenwriting genius Charlie Kaufman basically implied gurus like McKee were cheap and formulaic, but ended up subverting this by ending his movie in exactly the way "McKee" prescribes because he couldn't come up with anything else.  But you still get the sense it was an act of desperation.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 décembre 2012 - 04:57 .

[Maria Caliban]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I was amused by his portrayal in Adaptation. Legit screenwriting genius Charlie Kaufman basically implied gurus like McKee were cheap and formulaic, but ended up subverting this by ending his movie in exactly the way "McKee" prescribes because he couldn't come up with anything else.  But you still get the sense it was an act of desperation.

McKee is quite formulaic, but I'd never suggest his methods are cheap.

The thing is that movies benefit from formula. In some ways, film is one of the worst storytelling mediums.

[StElmo]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I was amused by his portrayal in Adaptation. Legit screenwriting genius Charlie Kaufman basically implied gurus like McKee were cheap and formulaic, but ended up subverting this by ending his movie in exactly the way "McKee" prescribes because he couldn't come up with anything else.  But you still get the sense it was an act of desperation.

McKee is quite formulaic, but I'd never suggest his methods are cheap.

The thing is that movies benefit from formula. In some ways, film is one of the worst storytelling mediums.

Formula is not the word. Principles. and these principles have been around since before the common era.

Principles are malleable - forumla is like chemistry, which film or any other form of story is not.

[astreqwerty]

I loved the politics in da2...it sure had a better vision to it than dao which honestly had a very easy story..but they totally messed it .so much lost potential with da2.if only they had implemented the ideas better...

[StElmo]

astreqwerty wrote...

I loved the politics in da2...it sure had a better vision to it than dao which honestly had a very easy story..but they totally messed it .so much lost potential with da2.if only they had implemented the ideas better...

DA2 is a far superior game in premise just executed poorly.

Modifié par StElmo, 02 décembre 2012 - 10:16 .

[The Elder King]

StElmo wrote...

astreqwerty wrote...

I loved the politics in da2...it sure had a better vision to it than dao which honestly had a very easy story..but they totally messed it .so much lost potential with da2.if only they had implemented the ideas better...

DA2 is a far superior game in premise just executed poorly.

Which in the ends doesn't mean much, since the most important thing is the result. And I think that only the story/plot of DA2, in premise, was better than DAO's plot, but the execution wasn't good (and was terrible in Act 3). About the rest of the features shown prior release, my reaction was mixed, with some things I though were better than in DAO (friendship/rivarly system, the companions living their life), some things I preferred in DAO (race options, freedom of weapon and armour choices) and some thing I was indifferent about (voiced-silent protagonist).
In terms of story/execution, it's practically the opposite of most of  Bioware's games, that have an average story/plot but a good execution.

Modifié par hhh89, 02 décembre 2012 - 10:46 .

[StElmo]

hence why da2 should keep its ideas but be given more time to refine them.

[Wulfram]

I don't think DA2 was coherent enough to have a premise.

[StElmo]

Wulfram wrote...

I don't think DA2 was coherent enough to have a premise.

You either didn't play it or didn't pay attention or went in wanting to hate it.

[Wulfram]

StElmo wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

I don't think DA2 was coherent enough to have a premise.

You either didn't play it or didn't pay attention or went in wanting to hate it.

I played it lots of times, I liked it.  It was an incoherent mess.

[The Elder King]

Wulfram wrote...

I don't think DA2 was coherent enough to have a premise.

I might have used the wrong word. I mean DA2's story, in the concept, is better (in my opinion) than DAO's story. My problem with DA2's story is the execution.

StElmo wrote...

hence why da2 should keep its ideas but be given more time to refine them.

What "ideas"? As I said, I believe that only the story's concept was definitely better (and it's more because DAO's story is too cliched). Abotu the rest, I have mixed feelings. Though that's only my opinion.
About the story, it depends. Of course the best is having a good story/plot and a good execution/storytelling. But if I have to choose, I'll choose the latter over the former anytime.

[Wulfram]

hhh89 wrote...

I might have used the wrong word. I mean DA2's story, in the concept, is better (in my opinion) than DAO's story. My problem with DA2's story is the execution.

I think DA2's story is three largely unrelated stories smushed together, and thus it fails in concept as well as execution.

[StElmo]

hhh89 wrote...

StElmo wrote...

hence why da2 should keep its ideas but be given more time to refine them.

What "ideas"? As I said, I believe that only the story's concept was definitely better (and it's more because DAO's story is too cliched). Abotu the rest, I have mixed feelings. Though that's only my opinion.
About the story, it depends. Of course the best is having a good story/plot and a good execution/storytelling. But if I have to choose, I'll choose the latter over the former anytime.

DW man, I agree with you, I think we are just talking differently.

[The Elder King]

Wulfram wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

I might have used the wrong word. I mean DA2's story, in the concept, is better (in my opinion) than DAO's story. My problem with DA2's story is the execution.

I think DA2's story is three largely unrelated stories smushed together, and thus it fails in concept as well as execution.

The three parts of the game, considering that are separated from each other by years, couldn't have been completely related. And I see some connections between the Acts. The fact that connections between the Acts aren't good should be blamed on a poor execution.
Regardless, I think that DA2's story concept is the rise of power during years of a man in a city full of internal and external conflicts. On that, I find the concept more interesting than DAO's.

Modifié par hhh89, 02 décembre 2012 - 11:18 .

[The Elder King]

StElmo wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

StElmo wrote...

hence why da2 should keep its ideas but be given more time to refine them.

What "ideas"? As I said, I believe that only the story's concept was definitely better (and it's more because DAO's story is too cliched). Abotu the rest, I have mixed feelings. Though that's only my opinion.
About the story, it depends. Of course the best is having a good story/plot and a good execution/storytelling. But if I have to choose, I'll choose the latter over the former anytime.

DW man, I agree with you, I think we are just talking differently.

What does "DW" mean?

[Sacred_Fantasy]

They wanted to tell the mage-templar war in the opening screen but they also wanted to tell the story about how a supposedly common man rise to power and become the champion of Kirkwall ( by accident ) who hardly relevance to the conflict other than a misfortune guy who get caught at the right time and place in any given disjointed 3 ACTs. So yes, it's a ****** poor storytelling employing a ****** poor executed unreliable third person narrator story-within-story frame narrative. 

I'm sorry I'm not impressed with DA 2 story. I've read and watch too many personal and rise to power themed stories that are far better than DA 2, I couldn't bother to compare DA 2 with them.

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 02 décembre 2012 - 11:27 .