313 réponses à ce sujet

[shepskisaac]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

all those wild specualtions on this board like: "if the catalyst was on the station all along, why did it not do xyz, during me 1-2-3?" are useless and could have been avoided.

And it's one of the very few remaining questions post-EC and post-Levi. Regardless of everything, Bioware did actually fix most of the issues with the Catalyst with added explanations & lore in EC and Levi. Nobody can really say "I still don't get Catalyst at all". After EC, we now know his history, how he thinks, why he did what he did (regardless if we agree with him or not). That was the biggest issue of the original ending.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

IsaacShep wrote...
So? Synthetics vs. organics theme was present throughout the entire franchise. Once again you can't go "omg where did this rouge AI come from, there was never anything like that in the franchise!!!".

This "the ending doesn't fit the franchise" is a catchy slogan repated over and over again by people who hate the ending. Except that the only part that doesn't fit because its theme was not established previously is Synthesis.

Synthetics vs. organics was a theme, but it was never dominant. If anything, the whole "strength in unity" had a stronger presence in ME1/2 with the paragon ending of 1 and the entire suicide mission of 2. Synthetics vs. organics had no presence in either of these endings whatsoever. So ME3's ending does feel off when it turns out that robots vs meatbags was the main theme all along.

Hell. I would go so far and say that the Synthetics vs. organics theme was more or less put to rest in the Rannoch arc.

[Eterna]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

 i could .. .and i bet a lot more are on my side. (if a happier, mehem-like ending is added) and the catalyst would make more sense.

But the Catalyst does make sense. And I'm sorry, buy saying the ending is bad because it isn't happy severely damages the validity of your criticism. 

Not when you take ME1 and ME2 into account.

Nah, still does. 

[Eterna]

Lizardviking wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...
So? Synthetics vs. organics theme was present throughout the entire franchise. Once again you can't go "omg where did this rouge AI come from, there was never anything like that in the franchise!!!".

This "the ending doesn't fit the franchise" is a catchy slogan repated over and over again by people who hate the ending. Except that the only part that doesn't fit because its theme was not established previously is Synthesis.

Synthetics vs. organics was a theme, but it was never dominant. If anything, the whole "strength in unity" had a stronger presence in ME1/2 with the paragon ending of 1 and the entire suicide mission of 2. Synthetics vs. organics had no presence in either of these endings whatsoever. So ME3's ending does feel off when it turns out that robots vs meatbags was the main theme all along.

Hell. I would go so far and say that the Synthetics vs. organics theme was more or less put to rest in the Rannoch arc.

Actually it was dominant. Commander Sheoard an Organic is trying to stop giant Synthetic monsters from destroying the galaxy. 

[RogueBot]

MegaSovereign wrote...

"So...this guy liked the game? Well, lets make it the last game he ever goddamn plays."

He liked the wrong game in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[shepskisaac]

Lizardviking wrote...

Hell. I would go so far and say that the Synthetics vs. organics theme was more or less put to rest in the Rannoch arc.

Not when you still have giant synthetics with organic goose inside flying around and killing everyone. Also, EDI's developement was not finished on Rannoch. Of course this wasn't the THE main theme, but it was definitely one of the very major themes in the franchise so I don't see any reason why having it be the 'final revelation' is bad or feels out of place.

And people say Dark Energy would be better lol.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Eterna5 wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...
So? Synthetics vs. organics theme was present throughout the entire franchise. Once again you can't go "omg where did this rouge AI come from, there was never anything like that in the franchise!!!".

This "the ending doesn't fit the franchise" is a catchy slogan repated over and over again by people who hate the ending. Except that the only part that doesn't fit because its theme was not established previously is Synthesis.

Synthetics vs. organics was a theme, but it was never dominant. If anything, the whole "strength in unity" had a stronger presence in ME1/2 with the paragon ending of 1 and the entire suicide mission of 2. Synthetics vs. organics had no presence in either of these endings whatsoever. So ME3's ending does feel off when it turns out that robots vs meatbags was the main theme all along.

Hell. I would go so far and say that the Synthetics vs. organics theme was more or less put to rest in the Rannoch arc.

Actually it was dominant. Commander Sheoard an Organic is trying to stop giant Synthetic monsters from destroying the galaxy.

And in ME2 we learn that not only are the Reapers enemies to the Geth, a synthethic race. We also learn that they are this weird hybrid contruction. So it pretty much changed from "Organics vs synthethics" to "Reapers vs everybody".

[Ticonderoga117]

Eterna5 wrote...
Nah, still does. 

Whatever. When Soveriegn and Harbinger act like tools, the Citadel opens without Sovereign, and the Reapers don't leave behind technology for other species to develop, he'll make sense.

For the time though, he's the worst thing to happen to a narrative.

[Dr_Extrem]

IsaacShep wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

well .. exept for the point that we tried to kill tim and his insane ideas on control, during the course of the entire game.  .. i must have missed the conversdatons were we could like or at least support controling the reapers.

"What if TIM is right? What if Reapers can be controlled?" (not 100% quote, but very close). It was in the game and fighting TIm is actually besides the point. Control concept WAS foreshadowed. You can't say "omg where did that come from" regardless if you think Shep was always disagreeing with it (he wasn't, he was unsure about that concept, didn't believe it would work more like)

Dr_Extrem wrote...
we concluded the synthetic vs. organics plot on rannoch ... it was checked.

So? Synthetics vs. organics theme was present throughout the entire franchise. Once again you can't go "omg where did this rouge AI come from, there was never anything like that in the franchise!!!".

This "the ending doesn't fit the franchise" is a catchy slogan repated over and over again by people who hate the ending. Except that the only part that doesn't fit because its theme was not established previously is Synthesis.

the discussion was with hackett right at the beginning o the game - and the topic was dropped right after that.

the antagonist wanted to control the reapers - we wanted to stop the antagonist - therefore, we oppose tims plans of controling the reapers - otherwise, we have no reason to stop him in the first place. the possibility to control the reapers are very well in the game - but we fought against tim from doing it - it was the bad guys plan - not ours. if shep would have had the chance to like and activly support the concept of control, i would be perfectly ok with it.

our actions oppose this line of dialogue.



synthetics vs. organics is a part of the plot - but it got devalued during the course of the series. in the first game, we thought that the geth are evil killing machines, who were trying to get the "blessing" of their new god (sovereign).
in mass effect 2, we found out, that only 5% of the geth were following saren and they did that, because of a reaper-caused calculation error. (the synthetic equivalent to indoctrination).
mass effect 3 showed us, how the quarian overewacted and that they were really the cause for the morning war. the geth became isolationists and wanted peacefull coexistance. the conflict was never a conflict - just a missunderstanding.

[MegaSovereign]

The right to self-determination is the biggest theme of the series.

Organic vs Synthetics is strongly related to that theme.

[shepskisaac]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

the discussion was with hackett right at the beginning o the game - and the topic was dropped right after that.

the antagonist wanted to control the reapers - we wanted to stop the antagonist - therefore, we oppose tims plans of controling the reapers - otherwise, we have no reason to stop him in the first place. the possibility to control the reapers are very well in the game - but we fought against tim from doing it - it was the bad guys plan - not ours. if shep would have had the chance to like and activly support the concept of control, i would be perfectly ok with it.

our actions oppose this line of dialogue.

synthetics vs. organics is a part of the plot - but it got devalued during the course of the series. in the first game, we thought that the geth are evil killing machines, who were trying to get the "blessing" of their new god (sovereign).
in mass effect 2, we found out, that only 5% of the geth were following saren and they did that, because of a reaper-caused calculation error. (the synthetic equivalent to indoctrination).
mass effect 3 showed us, how the quarian overewacted and that they were really the cause for the morning war. the geth became isolationists and wanted peacefull coexistance. the conflict was never a conflict - just a missunderstanding.

Again, so? You claimed it didn't fit the franchise but it does because these topics were present in the franchise.

[Dr_Extrem]

MegaSovereign wrote...

The right to self-determination is the biggest theme of the series.

Organic vs Synthetics is strongly related to that theme.

right .. this concept can be found in every side and mainplot.

this concept is violated in the endings, by choosing one of the 4 endings, we decide over the heads of other people and self determination is not given anymore. this fits to a shepard who dislikes the idea of self determination - but shepards who believed in it, are screwed.

Modifié par Dr_Extrem, 02 décembre 2012 - 11:01 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

IsaacShep wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Hell. I would go so far and say that the Synthetics vs. organics theme was more or less put to rest in the Rannoch arc.

Not when you still have giant synthetics with organic goose inside flying around and killing everyone. Also, EDI's developement was not finished on Rannoch. Of course this wasn't the THE main theme, but it was definitely one of the very major themes in the franchise so I don't see any reason why having it be the 'final revelation' is bad or feels out of place.

But Geth vs Quarians was pretty much the "face" of this conflict. Sure, we still had EDI, but the major conflict within this theme had been resolved so to speak. And it feels off when your last two endings had a different theme going on, and you drop that in favor of something that was never seemed to be the core theme. 

And people say Dark Energy would be better lol.

Never said I liked the dark energy idea. I think that idea is even worse than what we already have.

[shepskisaac]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

this concept is violated in the endings, by choosing one of the 4 endings, we decide over the heads of other people

What do you decide over heads of other people in Control, esp. Paragon? Shep saves everyone in it (unlike in Destroy) and no one is changed (like in Synthesis)

[Dr_Extrem]

IsaacShep wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

the discussion was with hackett right at the beginning o the game - and the topic was dropped right after that.

the antagonist wanted to control the reapers - we wanted to stop the antagonist - therefore, we oppose tims plans of controling the reapers - otherwise, we have no reason to stop him in the first place. the possibility to control the reapers are very well in the game - but we fought against tim from doing it - it was the bad guys plan - not ours. if shep would have had the chance to like and activly support the concept of control, i would be perfectly ok with it.

our actions oppose this line of dialogue.

synthetics vs. organics is a part of the plot - but it got devalued during the course of the series. in the first game, we thought that the geth are evil killing machines, who were trying to get the "blessing" of their new god (sovereign).
in mass effect 2, we found out, that only 5% of the geth were following saren and they did that, because of a reaper-caused calculation error. (the synthetic equivalent to indoctrination).
mass effect 3 showed us, how the quarian overewacted and that they were really the cause for the morning war. the geth became isolationists and wanted peacefull coexistance. the conflict was never a conflict - just a missunderstanding.

Again, so? You claimed it didn't fit the franchise but it does because these topics were present in the franchise.

never said that. the only thing i say is, that the buildup for shepard to take control is not really given. hell .. we even tell tim at the end that controling the reapers is insane.

with the proper buildup, it would be no problem.

sabotaging our own missions, finding and refining control - dialogue during horizon .. the chances are there. but all the time we say, that it is monstrous and that controling the reapers is insane.

[MegaSovereign]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

The right to self-determination is the biggest theme of the series.

Organic vs Synthetics is strongly related to that theme.

right .. this concept can be found in every side and mainplot.

this concept is violated in the endings, by choosing one of the 4 endings, we decide over the heads of other people and self determination is not given anymore. this fits to a shepard who dislikes the idea of self determination - but shepards who believed in it, are screwed.

...Only if you choose Synthesis...and on a smaller scope Destroy if the Geth are alive in your playthrough.

[Peranor]

Ah yes... The inevitable "technological singularity".

[AlanC9]

Lizardviking wrote...

And in ME2 we learn that not only are the Reapers enemies to the Geth, a synthethic race. We also learn that they are this weird hybrid contruction. So it pretty much changed from "Organics vs synthethics" to "Reapers vs everybody".

Except that the Reapers still consider themselves to be synthetics, unless we want to retcon a lot of the ME1 dialogue as being disinformation. Which isn't inconcevable.

[Dr_Extrem]

IsaacShep wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

this concept is violated in the endings, by choosing one of the 4 endings, we decide over the heads of other people

What do you decide over heads of other people in Control, esp. Paragon? Shep saves everyone in it (unlike in Destroy) and no one is changed (like in Synthesis)

what about the enslaved reapers? ..

even if your paragon shepard is the perfect caretaker and protector of the galaxy - the view on the reapers will not change - they used to kill and terrorise people without remorse. the fact that they head off and start doing good, would be confusing at best.

reapers are intimidating - no one would even try to oppose them ... this could cause tentions.

[Tigerman123]

From the me1 artbook

[MegaSovereign]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

this concept is violated in the endings, by choosing one of the 4 endings, we decide over the heads of other people

What do you decide over heads of other people in Control, esp. Paragon? Shep saves everyone in it (unlike in Destroy) and no one is changed (like in Synthesis)

what about the enslaved reapers? ..

even if your paragon shepard is the perfect caretaker and protector of the galaxy - the view on the reapers will not change - they used to kill and terrorise people without remorse. the fact that they head off and start doing good, would be confusing at best.

reapers are intimidating - no one would even try to oppose them ... this could cause tentions.

The galaxy doesn't seem to be complaining when they see Reapers rebuilding the relays.

[Dr_Extrem]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

this concept is violated in the endings, by choosing one of the 4 endings, we decide over the heads of other people

What do you decide over heads of other people in Control, esp. Paragon? Shep saves everyone in it (unlike in Destroy) and no one is changed (like in Synthesis)

what about the enslaved reapers? ..

even if your paragon shepard is the perfect caretaker and protector of the galaxy - the view on the reapers will not change - they used to kill and terrorise people without remorse. the fact that they head off and start doing good, would be confusing at best.

reapers are intimidating - no one would even try to oppose them ... this could cause tentions.

The galaxy doesn't seem to be complaining when they see Reapers rebuilding the relays.

do they have a chance to complain? nobody cant do anything about it. everybody who opose the reapers, dies.

Modifié par Dr_Extrem, 02 décembre 2012 - 11:16 .

[shepskisaac]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

what about the enslaved reapers? ..

What about them? You think they would be goodie goodie without the Catalyst? Not really, they have the same superiority complex as Leviathans. Wouldn't end well even without the Catalyst

Dr_Extrem wrote...

even if your paragon shepard is the perfect caretaker and protector of the galaxy - the view on the reapers will not change - they used to kill and terrorise people without remorse. the fact that they head off and start doing good, would be confusing at best.

reapers are intimidating - no one would even try to oppose them ... this could cause tentions.

So the races could destroy the controlled Reapers after the ending if they still felt too threathened. I'm sure perfect Paragon Shep would understand. Or better, just ask prfect Paragon Shep-AI to fly them into a black hole. No harm comes from Control to any of the races, that's just the truth.

[archangel1996]

Nope, all my friends hate it
They hate it so much that sometimes, for the pity, i try to justify it

Modifié par archangel1996, 02 décembre 2012 - 11:18 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

AlanC9 wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

And in ME2 we learn that not only are the Reapers enemies to the Geth, a synthethic race. We also learn that they are this weird hybrid contruction. So it pretty much changed from "Organics vs synthethics" to "Reapers vs everybody".

Except that the Reapers still consider themselves to be synthetics, unless we want to retcon a lot of the ME1 dialogue as being disinformation. Which isn't inconcevable.

Sovereign also said that they were beyond our understanding. Seems like Sovereign was just full of himself. And what he said does not really change that they are a hybrid construction does it?