313 réponses à ce sujet

[Dr_Extrem]

IsaacShep wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

what about the enslaved reapers? ..

What about them? You think they would be goodie goodie without the Catalyst? Not really, they have the same superiority complex as Leviathans. Wouldn't end well even without the Catalyst

Dr_Extrem wrote...

even if your paragon shepard is the perfect caretaker and protector of the galaxy - the view on the reapers will not change - they used to kill and terrorise people without remorse. the fact that they head off and start doing good, would be confusing at best.

reapers are intimidating - no one would even try to oppose them ... this could cause tentions.

So the races could destroy the controlled Reapers after the ending if they still felt too threathened. I'm sure perfect Paragon Shep would understand. Or better, just ask prfect Paragon Shep-AI to fly them into a black hole. No harm comes from Control to any of the races, that's just the truth.

thats your headcanon. shepard is no more - only the memories and thoughs are used to create a new ai (based on the catalyst) ... and the new ai is eager to fullfill its purpose as a protector and caretaker. the problem is, that the new ai is disconnected form the civilisation .. anything can happen.

i am not saying that control is a bad ending - it just needs a better buildup throughout the story - it would make this choice more obvious and understandable.

[MegaSovereign]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

this concept is violated in the endings, by choosing one of the 4 endings, we decide over the heads of other people

What do you decide over heads of other people in Control, esp. Paragon? Shep saves everyone in it (unlike in Destroy) and no one is changed (like in Synthesis)

what about the enslaved reapers? ..

even if your paragon shepard is the perfect caretaker and protector of the galaxy - the view on the reapers will not change - they used to kill and terrorise people without remorse. the fact that they head off and start doing good, would be confusing at best.

reapers are intimidating - no one would even try to oppose them ... this could cause tentions.

The galaxy doesn't seem to be complaining when they see Reapers rebuilding the relays.

do they have a chance to complain? nobody cant do anything about it. everybody who opose the reapers, dies.

I don't see people dying in the Control ending. Nice headcanon.

[WhiteKnyght]

IsaacShep wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

all those wild specualtions on this board like: "if the catalyst was on the station all along, why did it not do xyz, during me 1-2-3?" are useless and could have been avoided.

And it's one of the very few remaining questions post-EC and post-Levi. Regardless of everything, Bioware did actually fix most of the issues with the Catalyst with added explanations & lore in EC and Levi. Nobody can really say "I still don't get Catalyst at all". After EC, we now know his history, how he thinks, why he did what he did (regardless if we agree with him or not). That was the biggest issue of the original ending.

Well to be fair, even if the Catalyst didn't exist, you could ask the same question about the Reapers, if they built the Citadel, it's only logical they would have as much control over it as the Catalyst *should*.  Along with "How can everybody be on a station made of Reaper tech and not become indoctrinated?" And a couple of other things.

The answers to these questions are implied through the answers to other questions.

The Citadel is likely a Leviathan construction. It is to the Catalyst what the Normandy is for EDI in Mass Effect 2. A house for it's functions while it works. The chamber is likely the Catalyst's AI core. And going on that logic, the Catalyst is likely shackled to prevent it from accessing certain functions on the Citadel, like the controls, which is why they used the Keepers as a proxy.

If you notice, the Catalyst doesn't control the platform which took Shepard into its chamber. As evidenced in the Low EMS conversation where the first words it utters are "Why are you here?" meaning it doesn't even know how Shepard got there.

[shepskisaac]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

thats your headcanon. shepard is no more - only the memories and thoughs are used to create a new ai (based on the catalyst) ... and the new ai is eager to fullfill its purpose as a protector and caretaker. the problem is, that the new ai is disconnected form the civilisation .. anything can happen.

i am not saying that control is a bad ending - it just needs a better buildup throughout the story - it would make this choice more obvious and understandable.

No, that's your doom & gloom headcanon. In the actual game, this 'new AI' even says itself that it's based on SHEPARD, not the previous Catalyst boy. And that the values, morals etc of that new AI are based on Shep, hello, that's the reason there are two versions of Control, Paragon and Renegade. If it was based on the Catalyst boy, there would only be one version.

[MegaSovereign]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

all those wild specualtions on this board like: "if the catalyst was on the station all along, why did it not do xyz, during me 1-2-3?" are useless and could have been avoided.

And it's one of the very few remaining questions post-EC and post-Levi. Regardless of everything, Bioware did actually fix most of the issues with the Catalyst with added explanations & lore in EC and Levi. Nobody can really say "I still don't get Catalyst at all". After EC, we now know his history, how he thinks, why he did what he did (regardless if we agree with him or not). That was the biggest issue of the original ending.

Well to be fair, even if the Catalyst didn't exist, you could ask the same question about the Reapers, if they built the Citadel, it's only logical they would have as much control over it as the Catalyst *should*.  Along with "How can everybody be on a station made of Reaper tech and not become indoctrinated?" And a couple of other things.

The answers to these questions are implied through the answers to other questions.

The Citadel is likely a Leviathan construction. It is to the Catalyst what the Normandy is for EDI in Mass Effect 2. A house for it's functions while it works. The chamber is likely the Catalyst's AI core. And going on that logic, the Catalyst is likely shackled to prevent it from accessing certain functions on the Citadel, like the controls, which is why they used the Keepers as a proxy.

If you notice, the Catalyst doesn't control the platform which took Shepard into its chamber. As evidenced in the Low EMS conversation where the first words it utters are "Why are you here?" meaning it doesn't even know how Shepard got there.

Interesting notion. But who did?

[Dr_Extrem]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

this concept is violated in the endings, by choosing one of the 4 endings, we decide over the heads of other people

What do you decide over heads of other people in Control, esp. Paragon? Shep saves everyone in it (unlike in Destroy) and no one is changed (like in Synthesis)

what about the enslaved reapers? ..

even if your paragon shepard is the perfect caretaker and protector of the galaxy - the view on the reapers will not change - they used to kill and terrorise people without remorse. the fact that they head off and start doing good, would be confusing at best.

reapers are intimidating - no one would even try to oppose them ... this could cause tentions.

The galaxy doesn't seem to be complaining when they see Reapers rebuilding the relays.

do they have a chance to complain? nobody cant do anything about it. everybody who opose the reapers, dies.

I don't see people dying in the Control ending. Nice headcanon.

well .. people were killed by the reapers before they changed. the people do not know what made them change. and we can assume, that they will not oppose the reapers.

why do i not mess with armed people - i know, that they could hurt me. common sense and self preservation.

[Reorte]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

do they have a chance to complain? nobody cant do anything about it. everybody who opose the reapers, dies.

I don't see people dying in the Control ending. Nice headcanon.

It's headcanon if you think that there's nothing to worry about with Control. Reapers still there, there's just been a bit of reprogramming of their boss. Since they never acted as if they were being controlled very directly that's reason to worry. Shepalyst, even with the paragon ending, sounds downright creepy. That's a reason to worry. None of it is confirmed bad but you'd have to be crazy to not be worried about it. Of course people who pick Control might've got lucky and it might not be as bad as it looks but no-one who chose it should pretend that they haven't made a very big, very dangerous gamble.

[MegaSovereign]

Reorte wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

do they have a chance to complain? nobody cant do anything about it. everybody who opose the reapers, dies.

I don't see people dying in the Control ending. Nice headcanon.

It's headcanon if you think that there's nothing to worry about with Control. Reapers still there, there's just been a bit of reprogramming of their boss. Since they never acted as if they were being controlled very directly that's reason to worry. Shepalyst, even with the paragon ending, sounds downright creepy. That's a reason to worry. None of it is confirmed bad but you'd have to be crazy to not be worried about it. Of course people who pick Control might've got lucky and it might not be as bad as it looks but no-one who chose it should pretend that they haven't made a very big, very dangerous gamble.

The reason I'm not worried is because there never seems to be any ****ing consequences with Blue decisions in Bioware games.

In seriousness, conflict will always exist with or without the Reapers. And the fact that one choice may or may not have unintended consequences doesn't change the fact that the right to self-determination is a big theme behind many decision making scenarios in the ME universe.

Oh and the galaxy is well aware that the Reapers have been affected by the Crucible since they saw the blue energy hitting literally every system.

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 02 décembre 2012 - 11:34 .

[shepskisaac]

Reorte wrote...

It's headcanon if you think that there's nothing to worry about with Control. Reapers still there, there's just been a bit of reprogramming of their boss.

No. There's a new boss, not old boss reprogrammed. Old boss got fired. And we're going by what's shown in the game - and in the game, Reapers are rebuilding while everyone else is happy bunnies. Thousands years later, during the Stargazer scene, the Grandpa and the kid are also happy bunnies, no sign of terrorist Shep AI and his Reapers.

[Dr_Extrem]

IsaacShep wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

thats your headcanon. shepard is no more - only the memories and thoughs are used to create a new ai (based on the catalyst) ... and the new ai is eager to fullfill its purpose as a protector and caretaker. the problem is, that the new ai is disconnected form the civilisation .. anything can happen.

i am not saying that control is a bad ending - it just needs a better buildup throughout the story - it would make this choice more obvious and understandable.

No, that's your doom & gloom headcanon. In the actual game, this 'new AI' even says itself that it's based on SHEPARD, not the previous Catalyst boy. And that the values, morals etc of that new AI are based on Shep, hello, that's the reason there are two versions of Control, Paragon and Renegade. If it was based on the Catalyst boy, there would only be one version.

well .. the truth may lies in the middle. one thing we can agree on, is that the new ai is neither shepard, nor the catalyst.
it is based on shepard - i never doubted it. but it became something bigger and new. and accoriding to the catalyst, the new ai became disconnected to its "roots".

[shepskisaac]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

and accoriding to the catalyst, the new ai became disconnected to its "roots".

Urh what?

[WhiteKnyght]

MegaSovereign wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

all those wild specualtions on this board like: "if the catalyst was on the station all along, why did it not do xyz, during me 1-2-3?" are useless and could have been avoided.

And it's one of the very few remaining questions post-EC and post-Levi. Regardless of everything, Bioware did actually fix most of the issues with the Catalyst with added explanations & lore in EC and Levi. Nobody can really say "I still don't get Catalyst at all". After EC, we now know his history, how he thinks, why he did what he did (regardless if we agree with him or not). That was the biggest issue of the original ending.

Well to be fair, even if the Catalyst didn't exist, you could ask the same question about the Reapers, if they built the Citadel, it's only logical they would have as much control over it as the Catalyst *should*.  Along with "How can everybody be on a station made of Reaper tech and not become indoctrinated?" And a couple of other things.

The answers to these questions are implied through the answers to other questions.

The Citadel is likely a Leviathan construction. It is to the Catalyst what the Normandy is for EDI in Mass Effect 2. A house for it's functions while it works. The chamber is likely the Catalyst's AI core. And going on that logic, the Catalyst is likely shackled to prevent it from accessing certain functions on the Citadel, like the controls, which is why they used the Keepers as a proxy.

If you notice, the Catalyst doesn't control the platform which took Shepard into its chamber. As evidenced in the Low EMS conversation where the first words it utters are "Why are you here?" meaning it doesn't even know how Shepard got there.

Interesting notion. But who did?

Prothean VI perhaps? It said on Thessia is was designed to assist with the Crucible and interface with the Catalyst -- or at least what they believed to be the Catalyst, the Citadel.

Or maybe when the Crucible docked, the surge of energy being transmitted activated the lift involuntarily.

Or perhaps the Crucible was designed by a past cycle to open the path to the chamber so it could be activated.

Or hell, maybe when Shepard passed out he fell on the pressure plate, a sensor saw his presence, believed that someone wanted to go up, and did it's function.

All theories of course, but it fits the implications we're given.

[Dr_Extrem]

IsaacShep wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

and accoriding to the catalyst, the new ai became disconnected to its "roots".

Urh what?

the discussion prior to the choice.

the catalyst says, that shepard will become the new catalyst but will loose everything in the process and he/she will become disconnected from its people.

thats what the catalyst says, if you ask for clarification.

[Dr_Extrem]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

all those wild specualtions on this board like: "if the catalyst was on the station all along, why did it not do xyz, during me 1-2-3?" are useless and could have been avoided.

And it's one of the very few remaining questions post-EC and post-Levi. Regardless of everything, Bioware did actually fix most of the issues with the Catalyst with added explanations & lore in EC and Levi. Nobody can really say "I still don't get Catalyst at all". After EC, we now know his history, how he thinks, why he did what he did (regardless if we agree with him or not). That was the biggest issue of the original ending.

Well to be fair, even if the Catalyst didn't exist, you could ask the same question about the Reapers, if they built the Citadel, it's only logical they would have as much control over it as the Catalyst *should*.  Along with "How can everybody be on a station made of Reaper tech and not become indoctrinated?" And a couple of other things.

The answers to these questions are implied through the answers to other questions.

The Citadel is likely a Leviathan construction. It is to the Catalyst what the Normandy is for EDI in Mass Effect 2. A house for it's functions while it works. The chamber is likely the Catalyst's AI core. And going on that logic, the Catalyst is likely shackled to prevent it from accessing certain functions on the Citadel, like the controls, which is why they used the Keepers as a proxy.

If you notice, the Catalyst doesn't control the platform which took Shepard into its chamber. As evidenced in the Low EMS conversation where the first words it utters are "Why are you here?" meaning it doesn't even know how Shepard got there.

Interesting notion. But who did?

Prothean VI perhaps? It said on Thessia is was designed to assist with the Crucible and interface with the Catalyst -- or at least what they believed to be the Catalyst, the Citadel.

Or maybe when the Crucible docked, the surge of energy being transmitted activated the lift involuntarily.

Or perhaps the Crucible was designed by a past cycle to open the path to the chamber so it could be activated.

Or hell, maybe when Shepard passed out he fell on the pressure plate, a sensor saw his presence, believed that someone wanted to go up, and did it's function.

All theories of course, but it fits the implications we're given.

 or shepard is having vivid dreams caused by bloodloss and trauma and the real ending is still coming ... (speculation on my side)

Modifié par Dr_Extrem, 02 décembre 2012 - 11:54 .

[MegaSovereign]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

and accoriding to the catalyst, the new ai became disconnected to its "roots".

Urh what?

the discussion prior to the choice.

the catalyst says, that shepard will become the new catalyst but will loose everything in the process and he/she will become disconnected from its people.

thats what the catalyst says, if you ask for clarification.

He says his connection to organic life will be lost. Pretty vague statement since both EDI and the Geth can communicate with organic life.

[Reorte]

IsaacShep wrote...

Reorte wrote...

It's headcanon if you think that there's nothing to worry about with Control. Reapers still there, there's just been a bit of reprogramming of their boss.

No. There's a new boss, not old boss reprogrammed. Old boss got fired. And we're going by what's shown in the game - and in the game, Reapers are rebuilding while everyone else is happy bunnies. Thousands years later, during the Stargazer scene, the Grandpa and the kid are also happy bunnies, no sign of terrorist Shep AI and his Reapers.

The Shepalyst program is going to be running on the hardware built for the purpose of controlling the Reapers. It's going to have to re-use a lot of the software for things that simply aren't part of Shepard (like whatever contact it has with the Reapers). Even Paragon Shepalyst doesn't sound like Shepard, there's clearly something else there too. You can hope that the change is entirely down to the effects something like that would have on a person even if it was a 100% accurate model and the other things don't have any direct impact but it's only a hope and I'd argue not even the most likely one when you think about what's supposed to have happened.

Stargazer scene means sod all, could be another cycle (like the different Refuse one), could simply be another planet 6 months later. Even if it's a thousand years later that's not really a great deal in the Reapers' timescale.

[WhiteKnyght]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Reorte wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

do they have a chance to complain? nobody cant do anything about it. everybody who opose the reapers, dies.

I don't see people dying in the Control ending. Nice headcanon.

It's headcanon if you think that there's nothing to worry about with Control. Reapers still there, there's just been a bit of reprogramming of their boss. Since they never acted as if they were being controlled very directly that's reason to worry. Shepalyst, even with the paragon ending, sounds downright creepy. That's a reason to worry. None of it is confirmed bad but you'd have to be crazy to not be worried about it. Of course people who pick Control might've got lucky and it might not be as bad as it looks but no-one who chose it should pretend that they haven't made a very big, very dangerous gamble.

The reason I'm not worried is because there never seems to be any ****ing consequences with Blue decisions in Bioware games.

In seriousness, conflict will always exist with or without the Reapers. And the fact that one choice may or may not have unintended consequences doesn't change the fact that the right to self-determination is a big theme behind many decision making scenarios in the ME universe.

Oh and the galaxy is well aware that the Reapers have been affected by the Crucible since they saw the blue energy hitting literally every system.

Save the Council - Blue Decision = Result: Alliance Fleets are significantly weaker in ME3 because half of them got blown to hell.

Elect Anderson - Blue Decision = Result: You get your Spectre status back during ME3, which does pretty much nothing except when you wanna throw the clout around. And Anderson is replaced by Udina before Retribution starts. So it's overall a pretty pointless choice.

Rewrite the Heretics - Blue Decision = Result: It does the opposite of what was intended and made more geth join the Heretics. Although the Heretics are convinced to rejoin the Geth and oppose the Reapers, and the rewrite strengthened them.

[shepskisaac]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

the discussion prior to the choice.

the catalyst says, that shepard will become the new catalyst but will loose everything in the process and he/she will become disconnected from its people.

thats what the catalyst says, if you ask for clarification.

Yeah, he will lose the body, the ability to live like an organic and makes breakfasts for [insert LI]. He won't lose the perspctive he had as an organic. Catalyst and Shep-AI are fundamentally different. Shep-AI will always have organic background and memories, he's not restricted by anything, wasn't programmed by anyone. Completly different entity than the Catalyst.

[MrGMM88]

Newcomers might like it. People who played the previous games won't (plot wise).

[WhiteKnyght]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

and accoriding to the catalyst, the new ai became disconnected to its "roots".

Urh what?

the discussion prior to the choice.

the catalyst says, that shepard will become the new catalyst but will loose everything in the process and he/she will become disconnected from its people.

thats what the catalyst says, if you ask for clarification.

He says his connection to organic life will be lost. Pretty vague statement since both EDI and the Geth can communicate with organic life.

Connection =/= Communication

I took it as that Shepard will not be the same as them anymore. Another way of describing just how much the transition will change him.

Shepard's IQ jumps to super high levels, and he gains a different perspective on a lot of things, but is still driven by the same Morality. Thus he chooses to make the galaxy a better place.

Though I wouldn't have minded a renegade variant for the Control choice, which has Shepard conquer the galaxy and rule with a totalitarian iron fist. lol

[Reorte]

IsaacShep wrote...

Yeah, he will lose the body, the ability to live like an organic and makes breakfasts for [insert LI]. He won't lose the perspctive he had as an organic. Catalyst and Shep-AI are fundamentally different. Shep-AI will always have organic background and memories, he's not restricted by anything, wasn't programmed by anyone. Completly different entity than the Catalyst.

That's not based on any evidence at all. He was obviously programmed by whatever dissolved the real Shepard and created some software based on whatever information it gleaned doing that.

[Reorte]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Though I wouldn't have minded a renegade variant for the Control choice, which has Shepard conquer the galaxy and rule with a totalitarian iron fist. lol

There is a Renegade Control ending...

[Dr_Extrem]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

and accoriding to the catalyst, the new ai became disconnected to its "roots".

Urh what?

the discussion prior to the choice.

the catalyst says, that shepard will become the new catalyst but will loose everything in the process and he/she will become disconnected from its people.

thats what the catalyst says, if you ask for clarification.

He says his connection to organic life will be lost. Pretty vague statement since both EDI and the Geth can communicate with organic life.

but they are not disconnected to organic life, since they are communitacting with organics. maybe the new ai is just interested in the bigger picture and chooses to become a silent watcher and protector.

if i would be the new catalyst, i would clone a new body from skin flakes (can be found in sheps cabin) and use it as an avatar to communicate with the world. explain why things are happening - tell them not to worry.


too many specualtions.

Modifié par Dr_Extrem, 02 décembre 2012 - 11:51 .

[shepskisaac]

Reorte wrote...

That's not based on any evidence at all. He was obviously programmed by whatever dissolved the real Shepard and created some software based on whatever information it gleaned doing that.

Yes it is based on evidence:

a) Catalyst is not an organic turned AI, it's just an AI, he never had or will have organic perspective
Shep-AI is based on an organic and the reason there are 2 version of it is because its that organic that shapes the AI.

It's you who has no evidence to claim that Shep-AI's gonna be evil and stuff (let's be honest, that's the entire argument, Destroy fans and people who want happy ending want Control to be bad ending)

Modifié par IsaacShep, 02 décembre 2012 - 11:51 .

[WhiteKnyght]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

all those wild specualtions on this board like: "if the catalyst was on the station all along, why did it not do xyz, during me 1-2-3?" are useless and could have been avoided.

And it's one of the very few remaining questions post-EC and post-Levi. Regardless of everything, Bioware did actually fix most of the issues with the Catalyst with added explanations & lore in EC and Levi. Nobody can really say "I still don't get Catalyst at all". After EC, we now know his history, how he thinks, why he did what he did (regardless if we agree with him or not). That was the biggest issue of the original ending.

Well to be fair, even if the Catalyst didn't exist, you could ask the same question about the Reapers, if they built the Citadel, it's only logical they would have as much control over it as the Catalyst *should*.  Along with "How can everybody be on a station made of Reaper tech and not become indoctrinated?" And a couple of other things.

The answers to these questions are implied through the answers to other questions.

The Citadel is likely a Leviathan construction. It is to the Catalyst what the Normandy is for EDI in Mass Effect 2. A house for it's functions while it works. The chamber is likely the Catalyst's AI core. And going on that logic, the Catalyst is likely shackled to prevent it from accessing certain functions on the Citadel, like the controls, which is why they used the Keepers as a proxy.

If you notice, the Catalyst doesn't control the platform which took Shepard into its chamber. As evidenced in the Low EMS conversation where the first words it utters are "Why are you here?" meaning it doesn't even know how Shepard got there.

Interesting notion. But who did?

Prothean VI perhaps? It said on Thessia is was designed to assist with the Crucible and interface with the Catalyst -- or at least what they believed to be the Catalyst, the Citadel.

Or maybe when the Crucible docked, the surge of energy being transmitted activated the lift involuntarily.

Or perhaps the Crucible was designed by a past cycle to open the path to the chamber so it could be activated.

Or hell, maybe when Shepard passed out he fell on the pressure plate, a sensor saw his presence, believed that someone wanted to go up, and did it's function.

All theories of course, but it fits the implications we're given.

 or shepard is heaving vivid dreams caused by bloodloss and trauma and the real ending is still coming ... (speculation on my side)

having*

Devs already said they aren't expanding the ending again. They poured a lot of resources into doing it once and giving it away for free only for some people to spurn it. So they likely just gave up on you guys.

I wouldn't rule out the possibility of Shepard being able to squeeze out a dose of Medi-gel in between his ascent and his arrival in the Catalyst's chamber.

His Omni-tool was intact enough to communicate with Anderson and Admiral Hackett. And medi-gel, outside of gameplay, doesn't completely heal a person. It's a local anesthetic, disinfectant, coagulant, and painkiller. It would stop Shepard's bleeding and numb the pain enough to stabilize him.