75 réponses à ce sujet

[krisd2]

Ah i gotcha. Which duelist skill makes hit based on cunning? or do you just have to have the specialization?

[mosspit]

Dueling 1st skill of talent tree. But by end-game, rogues usually get all 4 skills.

[Haplose]

krisd2 wrote...

Ah i gotcha. Which duelist skill makes hit based on cunning? or do you just have to have the specialization?

None.
The Dueling stance just adds a flat 10 point attack bonus (and +10 Defence, if you also have Keen Defence Talent).

[mosspit]

Oops misread question. What Haplose said. Duelist tree do not provide talents that directly scale with cun score. Duelist is generally used for rogues that go dex or str.

[mosspit]

Based on previous posts, I believed what krisd2 meant was hit rate and not dmg. Lethality improve crit% and dmg but does not improve atk..

[mosspit]

LordReinhart wrote...

So, is high cunning still the best build on consoles, even those you waste 30 points in dexterity? (lose 10 points of damage on console, as dex isn't adding to damage)

What is your definition of best build? If you consider dps, there are many posts out there with heated debates on those. The ones I read suggest that a dw rogue with axe/dagger str/dex gives the best backstab dps. Imo pure cun gives excellent dps but most probably not the BEST dps. The thing is pure cun builds have other advantages beyond dps (excellent dps at that).

[Haplose]

mosspit wrote...

LordReinhart wrote...

So, is high cunning still the best build on consoles, even those you waste 30 points in dexterity? (lose 10 points of damage on console, as dex isn't adding to damage)

What is your definition of best build? If you consider dps, there are many posts out there with heated debates on those. The ones I read suggest that a dw rogue with axe/dagger str/dex gives the best backstab dps. Imo pure cun gives excellent dps but most probably not the BEST dps. The thing is pure cun builds have other advantages beyond dps (excellent dps at that).

No. Actually max Cunning Dagger/Dagger has the highest potential DPS.
What these threads usually mostly ignore is the chance to hit however, which is the worst for Cunning builds (Bard buff helps, but not that much).

[Silensfurtim]

If you have Alistair and Sten with both Rally on, Shale with Stone Aura (buff/debuff), and your own SoC, attack rating wouldnt be a problem. Your attack rating can reach upto 140. And if you backstab all the time your get +20 Attack/Flanking bonus. So you get like 150-160 attack rating.

If people thinks that CUN builds suck because of low attack rating then they are playing the CUN build wrong. CUN rogues are backstabber not frontliners.

My endgame CUN rogue had 90%-91% hit rating with almost 400k damage and 51% party damage contribution.

Modifié par Silensfurtim, 10 janvier 2010 - 02:40 .

[Haplose]

Silensfurtim wrote...

If you have Alistair and Sten with both Rally on, Shale with Stone Aura (buff/debuff), and your own SoC, attack rating wouldnt be a problem. Your attack rating can reach upto 140. And if you backstab all the time your get +20 Attack/Flanking bonus. So you get like 150-160 attack rating.

If people thinks that CUN builds suck because of low attack rating then they are playing the CUN build wrong. CUN rogues are backstabber not frontliners.

My endgame CUN rogue had 90%-91% hit rating with almost 400k damage and 51% party damage contribution.

I never said it's not possible. It just that it takes a whole party to support the attack accuracy of a Cun Rogue to make them really shine. For Alistair to have upgraded Rally takes what? Level 16 minimum? So the PC would be level 17. The game is 3/4 over by that time... or more.
Before that you can use Heroic Offence buffs and such. But for me it is clear that it is less convenient then having superb accuracy on my own.

[OcelotRex]

Update from my 360 playthrough:



I jumped the gun on this build; around level 10-12 it really starts to shine. After picking up lethality at 8, combat stealth, and exploit weakness at 12, I am doing more damage and hitting slightly less than the warrior I quit at 16, though I am swinging 2 daggers and he was swinging full size weapons slower. The point is, the rogue build is doing more damage. On the other hand, I could off-tank with the warrior and tank some heat off Alistair when needed whereas with the rogue, once I start pulling off of him I stealth out and circle around behind whoever's attacking him.



Here's my plan to continue on:



I have 49 in my base cunning at level 12. With the +2 from Key of the City and Helm of Honneleath, I need 9 more to reach max lockpicking and get rid of Leliana from my party. I am moving Morrigan in for more CC and DPS, leave Wynn in for pure healing, and Alistair will be my main tank. At Level 14, I am skipping lacerate and going to put 3 points into Bard; 1 for the level up, 1 for Saving the Earl, and 1 from a purchased tome. That should give me enough for song of courage which should boost my attack damage and hit rate. By 16, Alistair will have the motivate talent too, and I can have a 2 mage, 1 warrior, and the PC rogue party. That should make for an interesting and powerful end game...

[mosspit]

Haplose wrote...


No. Actually max Cunning Dagger/Dagger has the highest potential DPS.
What these threads usually mostly ignore is the chance to hit however, which is the worst for Cunning builds (Bard buff helps, but not that much).

@Haplose: Well the threads I read actually took into account chance to hit. If it was only based on dmg over time ignoring hit rate, I would not have any doubt that cun build will come out top. If considering hit rate, I cannot provide any evidence or theorycrafting that can convince myself that cun build is still the best and therefore unable to commit to stating that the build has the best dps. If you have some ways of showing that cun build has the best dps, feel free to share. I would like to know too.

@OcelotRex: Just completed my playthru with the same setup as yours. You shd end with a CUN score of over 100. Have fun backstabbing

Modifié par mosspit, 15 janvier 2010 - 10:35 .

[Silensfurtim]

mosspit wrote...

Haplose wrote...


No. Actually max Cunning Dagger/Dagger has the highest potential DPS.
What these threads usually mostly ignore is the chance to hit however, which is the worst for Cunning builds (Bard buff helps, but not that much).

@Haplose: Well the threads I read actually took into account chance to hit. If it was only based on dmg over time ignoring hit rate, I would not have any doubt that cun build will come out top. If considering hit rate, I cannot provide any evidence or theorycrafting that can convince myself that cun build is still the best and therefore unable to commit to stating that the build has the best dps. If you have some ways of showing that cun build has the best dps, feel free to share. I would like to know too.

http://social.biowar...66/index/223777

[mosspit]

Silensfurtim wrote...

http://social.biowar...66/index/223777

Ah THE Discobird thread. Thanks!

[dkjestrup]

Cunning Dagger/Dagger IS the highest DPS build. But Dex builds are much better for say, a solo, because of their high defense.



All you really want on a Cunning Build is Heroic Offense (tier 1, why not?), and either Dueling or Song of Courage. Most parties also have a Temp/Champ Tank, so you would most likely have Rally running as well. Hit Rate honestly isn't a problem, people exaggerate.



On a console, the best DPS is either Cun Dag/Dag, or a Dual Wield Warrior pure strength dag/dag with 24 dex. Single Target DPS that is.



To be completely honest, the best overall DPS build ON CONSOLE is a Dual Wield Warrior with 36 dex, max Strength, using full sized weapons.

[mosspit]

Lol how bout a mage spamming AoEs?

[Silensfurtim]

dkjestrup wrote...

All you really want on a Cunning Build is Heroic Offense (tier 1, why not?), and either Dueling or Song of Courage. Most parties also have a Temp/Champ Tank, so you would most likely have Rally running as well. Hit Rate honestly isn't a problem, people exaggerate.

.

This is my main party on my 4th Rogue playthrough on hard. I wanted to give a mix-maxed CUN rogue a try and here are my end game stats and party boosts. I brought along Alistair, Shale and Wynne for Attack Rating boosts. I never really had a problem with attack rating. It was kinda hard at 1/4 of the game, but 3/4 went really well. 

Modifié par Silensfurtim, 16 janvier 2010 - 11:57 .

[mosspit]

Silensfurtim wrote...

This is my main party on my 4th Rogue playthrough on hard. I wanted to give a mix-maxed CUN rogue a try and here are my end game stats and party boosts. I brought along Alistair, Shale and Wynne for Attack Rating boosts. I never really had a problem with attack rating. It was kinda hard at 1/4 of the game, but 3/4 went really well. 

Hmm tainted blade really adds alot to dmg...  Whats in your offhand?

[Silensfurtim]

mosspit wrote...

Silensfurtim wrote...

This is my main party on my 4th Rogue playthrough on hard. I wanted to give a mix-maxed CUN rogue a try and here are my end game stats and party boosts. I brought along Alistair, Shale and Wynne for Attack Rating boosts. I never really had a problem with attack rating. It was kinda hard at 1/4 of the game, but 3/4 went really well. 

Hmm tainted blade really adds alot to dmg...  Whats in your offhand?

The Edge 

[Rabrewski]

Are fullsize one handers slower than the shortsword versions if you dual wield?

[termokanden]

They're just slower in general. That, and you can't have one in your offhand unless you have the talent for it.

[jolly604]

So...basic...max Cun Dagger/dagger is the best? I've heard that you shuld go 20 Str/ 32 Dex and rest Cunning. Is that a good idea?