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Quest Design; or Controlling the Player's Experience


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#26
Veex

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Filament wrote...

I would certainly like to see dungeons that are nonlinear for once. That practically never happens.


A non-linear dungeon still has to be mapped and designed in full, which is Gaider's point, I believe. In his example, he's saying you can't just design a non-linear quest that has the player "taking a path" to a goal. If there are multiple paths, then the paths are labled A, B, and C, and each of those paths have obstacles D, E and F, but they all might lead to goal G.

I believe, as a writer, he's saying specificity from a design standpoint is really important, even if it doesn't necessarily appear that way in game.

#27
Guest_EntropicAngel_*

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Filament wrote...

Me too! Isn't it great?

Granted planet hopping in ME1 would have gotten old really fast if I didn't start using maps to chart a course (and combed every single planet instead). So, moderation?


Yeah I eventually came up with a system going around so I could basically go around once. I may have missed the very middle, but that was easy.

#28
Fast Jimmy

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EntropicAngel wrote...

Filament wrote...

Me too! Isn't it great?

Granted planet hopping in ME1 would have gotten old really fast if I didn't start using maps to chart a course (and combed every single planet instead). So, moderation?


Yeah I eventually came up with a system going around so I could basically go around once. I may have missed the very middle, but that was easy.


I got the Mass Effect Strategy Guide on the cheap ($8) when I started my second ME playthrough. Full maps of every planet with every major items and most enemy encounter areas. Best $8 of my life.

#29
Vaeliorin

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

Filament wrote...
Me too! Isn't it great?

Granted planet hopping in ME1 would have gotten old really fast if I didn't start using maps to chart a course (and combed every single planet instead). So, moderation?

Yeah I eventually came up with a system going around so I could basically go around once. I may have missed the very middle, but that was easy.

I got the Mass Effect Strategy Guide on the cheap ($8) when I started my second ME playthrough. Full maps of every planet with every major items and most enemy encounter areas. Best $8 of my life.

I just downloaded a list of coordinate for every item/encounter (well, there was one it missed, but I wrote it in) from GameFaqs.  As much as I liked trying to see how many times I could get the Mako to flip when it took a tumble, it would have been incredibly tedious to actual scour every planet to make sure I got everything, particularly since I've full completed ME somewhere around 15 times.

#30
Wozearly

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

When he says, "There's no room for ambiguity," it's possible he's
talking about how the quest is presented to the team, not how the quest
is presented to the player.


Veex wrote...

I believe, as a writer, he's saying specificity
from a design standpoint is really important, even if it doesn't
necessarily appear that way in game.


That's how I read it. Story flow is something that Bioware always seems to 'get' very well, which absolutely shone forth from DA:O, and it doesn't surprise me one bit that Gaider is a key architect of that.

I don't believe he was saying that each storyline (be that the main quest, or a small diversion) has to be scripted in a step by step way to funnel the player's experience down a completely linear path - although, clearly, that is one option.

What I think he was getting at was that deciding / scripting 'how' the player is going to run into the bits of the game that act as story exposition, or are designed to give the player / character a chance to evoke a certain emotion towards what's happening, are just as important as the story making coherent sense in terms of why things are happening and broadly when they happen.

I think this is just as much making sure that the writer thinks through how the story will best come out of their head and be experienced by the player / character to avoid the "Oh, I don't know when they meet the mage. At some point. What does the level design look like? Okay, there. That'll do. What is the mage doing there? I don't know...just don't explain anything, people don't need that level of coherence, they'll never notice...jeez!"

It doesn't mean making it choiceless by any means. You'd also consider how (and why) some critical choices can be offered, what consequences they would have, how will people run into those consequences, etc. As someone who has played a GM / DM role on a number of occasions, it rings a ton of bells.


In terms of the disarming power of ambiguity, a sketched together story outline could go; "Player is in a mine area and meets a scary person who will turn out to be a major antagonist. They have to escape, during which they meet one of the scary person's henchmen and learn a small amount about the henchman and scary person. At some point the scary person escapes in front of the player. Later on, the scary person warns the player about another antagonist who threatens them both. At the end stage of the game, the player has to decide whether to let the scary person live or die."

Sound broadly Bioware-like? Here's a million dollar question for you...was it a broad plot summary of some of the key elements of DA: Awakening, or a broad plot summary of some of the key elements of KOTOR: The Sith Lords?

...and if you delete the words 'mine' and 'scary' and assume that the precise order of events could be rearranged a bit, does it also describe Loghain in DA:O?

Despite having a raft of common themes, the way those particular stories were told and shown to the player were wildly different...and felt wildly different. I would argue that was probably just as much down to the 'how' players went down that path as much as the difference in settings. The 'why' was actually not necessarily the most relevant part at all in those stories, all of which gave the player significant freedom to decide that for themselves.

#31
Sylvius the Mad

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Wozearly wrote...

That's how I read it. Story flow is something that Bioware always seems to 'get' very well, which absolutely shone forth from DA:O, and it doesn't surprise me one bit that Gaider is a key architect of that.

I don't believe he was saying that each storyline (be that the main quest, or a small diversion) has to be scripted in a step by step way to funnel the player's experience down a completely linear path - although, clearly, that is one option.

What I think he was getting at was that deciding / scripting 'how' the player is going to run into the bits of the game that act as story exposition, or are designed to give the player / character a chance to evoke a certain emotion towards what's happening, are just as important as the story making coherent sense in terms of why things are happening and broadly when they happen.

I don't think it's even vaguely possible for BioWare to foresee either the player's or the character's emotional reaction to any specific in-game event.

#32
Wozearly

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I don't think it's even vaguely possible for BioWare to foresee either the player's or the character's emotional reaction to any specific in-game event.


Completely agree. But they can provide an illusion of choice that reflects what the writer had in mind and satisfies likely common reactions that would be displayed, either by choice of text responses or (shudders) voice acting.

Its definitely possible to get this working at an uncomplicated surface level - Bioware have been doing this consistently throughout the voice-acting era of their games, as no matter how you decide to speak something out loud it will always give an impression of the emotion (or lack of) behind it.

Admittedly, this is almost all through the lens of "Am I a nice character? Am I a nasty piece of work? Am I just neutral or snarky about this whole situation?" and then you're given a single option for each.

So can you actually display what the character or player feels if you try to decide that in a freeform way? Absolutely not. 

...and that's before the spectacular "Where the bleedin' 'eck did that come from?" moments when the character surprises the player (never good), and when the limited choices on the dialogue wheel leave you thinking "Where's none of the above?" and having to assume your character is hiding their actual feelings.

But for the most part, the VA work is fairly consistently in tune with its "theme", if not necessarily the player's reaction, and many players start to get conditioned into picking based on theme rather than deciding how their character would really react.


Just to be clear, I'm not advocating this approach an inch.

The most powerful emotional moments for characters (and, indeed, for me as a player) have been down to my own interpretation of the character's reaction from the non-voiced PC's.

Or they've been fantastically crafted situations that have sucker punched my character and me....y'know, like *that* moment in KOTOR. In cases like that, I doubt that Bioware were planning for a specific emotional reaction. They absolutely knew that there would be a major reaction, because you can see the care they took with setting it up and making sure you walked into it so unexpectedly...and letting its consequences change the rest of the story.