82 réponses à ce sujet

[Drakar123]

Blood Magic is my favorite spec.it getting removed would make me really really sad....I don't believe in good or evil.I seek power above all else and kill anyone who tries to stand in my way.I consider pride the greatest of all human virtues and think you can never have enough of it.I fully approve the magisters invasion of the golen city(the only thing I really hold against them is that they failed.They should have tried harder).I worship no god and if any of them were real I still wouldn't bend knee(proof of their existance would make me believe but I would never submit to anyone.I believe in the old gods for instance but I do not worship them).I would bring them down to earth,bind them in chains,use them for all they are worth and then throw them away.Why deny myself the greatest of all schools of magic ?Other specialazations are understandable because someone has to teach them to you but blood magic ?You can learn that easily.How else do I show that I support another Imperium and could care less about any of the chantry's rules ?Of course ideally the current imperium could take over Thedas again but if not making another one is a valid option as well.If someone is a Chantry zealot or expresses great belief in the maker I cut them down without even trying to argue.I treat the Qunari the same way.I don't try to convince them they are wrong I just kill anyone who identifies themselves as such.Converting them is usually not worth the effort.So yeah keep blood magic in the game.I like being the only person who has common sense and doesn't preach to others about morality and other nonsense.My main problem with Anders was that he tried to justify his beliefs using the chant of light.While he had his flaws most of which I could ignore his belief in the maker pissed me off.Why someone who advocates mageocracy would supoort the chantry's dogma is beyond me.Andraste may not have had anything against mages but the chantry certainly does and it must be purged before another Tevinter can rise

[Fox In The Box]

Drakar123 wrote...

Why someone who advocates mageocracy would supoort the chantry's dogma is beyond me.Andraste may not have had anything against mages but the chantry certainly does and it must be purged before another Tevinter can rise

Anders wanted mages to live as free as non-mages, but he never once advocated a mageocracy.

Would you mind using  paragraphs? Long posts are difficult to read without them.

Modifié par Fox In The Box, 04 décembre 2012 - 06:13 .

[Robhuzz]

thats1evildude wrote...

Solmanian wrote...

"normal" people have been showen to be turned into abomination aswell. Anyone connected to the fade (which is every one except dwarves), can become an abomination.

No, that is not the case. The only time non-mages can become abominations is through exceptional circumstances  — a blood mage implanting a demon inside a mundane host, for example, or in areas where the Fade is so weak that demons can slip through. Only mages are susceptible to being possessed at any time.

Except that this shouldn't be possible. If you play the DAO magi origin and talk to the 'apprentice' in the fade, the one who turns into a mouse, he actually explains how it works. A mage is possessed if he or she loses a battle of will against a demon. If the mage's will is strong enough to resist the demon, nothing will happen. If not, it turns you into an abomination.

There's no evidence anywhere that a mage is both in the fade as well as on the mundane world when they're awake. Thus... how can they even encounter a demon (who resides in the fade) while they're wandering around in thedas, let alone battle it in a battle of will. The only way for this to be possible is if the mage was both in the real world as well as the fade at the very same time.

[Drakar123]

Ah paragraphs...I always have trouble with them.And I know that he didn't advocate a mageocracy but one is inevitable with free mages.Do you really think his idea of freedom meant living like every other commoner and being abused by the nobles and corrupt guardsmen unable to do anything about it and living in poverty ?Doubtful.

Mages unlike those annoying nobles are actually superior to commoners and deserve to be in power.There are no weak Archons or magisters in tevinter who are figurheads or incompetent because they walked a very bloody path to reach where they are.They earned the power they wield and weren't just lucky to be born to the right father.Magoecracy encourages pursuit of knowledge and ensures that all your leaders are competent and know how to do their jobs.That's more then you can say about most of today's political systems

The one thing that really irked me about Anders was how he condemns blood magic and considers people who use it to be corrupt.It is a tool like any other but a very powerful one.Being a blood mage doesn't make you god or evil but it does make you powerful.

[Drakar123]

It's possible.Non mages can be and are possesed.Demons just have a harder time finding them because they don't draw power from the fade to cast spells and such.David Gaider said that demons are attracted to power.Be it political or magical anyone with power is an attractive target to demons.

That's why that desire demon possesed connor.He wasn't a strong mage by any means but his father was an arl.That made him a desireable target.If all mages were suddenly to dissapear possesions won't stop.Demons would simply start to seek out regular people instead.

There was that one noble who thought she was safe from possesion because she wasn't a mage but in the end she became an abomination and used blood magic to fight us(which supports my theory that anyone can learn blood magic be they mage or mundane).

[Solmanian]

Drakar123 wrote...

Ah paragraphs...I always have trouble with them.And I know that he didn't advocate a mageocracy but one is inevitable with free mages.Do you really think his idea of freedom meant living like every other commoner and being abused by the nobles and corrupt guardsmen unable to do anything about it and living in poverty ?Doubtful.

Mages unlike those annoying nobles are actually superior to commoners and deserve to be in power.There are no weak Archons or magisters in tevinter who are figurheads or incompetent because they walked a very bloody path to reach where they are.They earned the power they wield and weren't just lucky to be born to the right father.Magoecracy encourages pursuit of knowledge and ensures that all your leaders are competent and know how to do their jobs.That's more then you can say about most of today's political systems

The one thing that really irked me about Anders was how he condemns blood magic and considers people who use it to be corrupt.It is a tool like any other but a very powerful one.Being a blood mage doesn't make you god or evil but it does make you powerful.

Except that magic-using has been proved to have been hereditary, with childrens of mages almost allways becoming mages themselves (even if one of the parents isn't a mage). The hawkes are the only family that shown that "halfbreeds" can be non mages, with most cases slanted towards the mages (with varying power levels). Thereofore a magocracy will pursue the concept of "bloodlines", where a the "purer" bloodlines will be more prestigious - making it no difference than feudalism, just replacing martial might with magic (I assume rich people remain powerfull regardless of where they live). I don't see how advocating a "might makes right" system of governance is realy helping anyone. and BTW :

"Mages unlike those annoying nobles are actually superior to commoners and deserve to be in power.There are no weak Archons or magisters in tevinter who are figurheads or incompetent because they walked a very bloody path to reach where they are.They earned the power they wield and weren't just lucky to be born to the right father."
 is just wrong.  Your average medieval knight was the deadliest killing machine of his era, not just by the quality of his gear but by the virtue of decades of constant training. Inheriting a title is one thing, but to hold onto the power of wealth, you had to prove yourself formidable on the battlefied and/or economicaly sauve. Uncoincidantly, nobleman had the best education, and taught the skills required to govern people (optimaly). Not meaning that discrimination was right, but it's existence and results are undenaible.

"Magoecracy encourages pursuit of POWER and ensures that all your leaders are POWERMONGERS and know how to GET MORE POWER.That's EXACTLY WHAT you can say about most of today's political systems"
Fixed it for you...

The same reasons that damn feudalism, damn magocracy...

"Many forms of government have been tried and will be tried in this world of sin and woe.
No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is
the worst form of government, except for all the others that have been tried from time to time."  - Winston Churchill

Modifié par Solmanian, 04 décembre 2012 - 06:51 .

[Drakar123]

Magic is hereditary yes but mages are vastly different from knights in our world.All mages recieve the same education in the Minrathous circle of magi and those who are talented are picked by magisters to become their apprentices and later become magisters themselves if they prove able.

While there are powerful bloodlines in tevinter they don't guarantee you a magister position.Any mage regardless of social standing or amount of wealth can become a magister.Tevinter values ability everything else be damned.The only thing those bloodlines have going for them is that they practiced eugenics to be better mages.This is why magisters don't like it when mages from other countries come to tevinter.They can also become magisters if they are powerful mages.There is no discrimination in Tevinter.Even is someone does manage to buy the magister position they would quickly get killed because of their incompetence.

Tevnter is a lot like barbarian societies in that regard.The strong rule while the weak are ruled except the difference between strong warriors and mages is that to be a powerful mage you have to also be very intelligent.Due to this the people in power are always highly intelligent and competent.The stronger the mage the higher their position in the senate and to be a stronger mage you have to be smarter then the people below you.This ensures the Archon is never and idiot.Tevinter has never had an Archon who was a bad leader because of this while every other country on Thedas has had it's fair share of weak kings and figure heads.Ferelden had Cailan,Arland and such.Mageocracy also promotes the pursuit of knowledge(something which our society doesn't in certain areas because the rich want to stay that way.Take the oil barons as an example) because doing so would advance your rank and while it isn't perfect no system is.

Also nice Churchil quote there.

[Robhuzz]

Drakar123 wrote...

It's possible.Non mages can be and are possesed.Demons just have a harder time finding them because they don't draw power from the fade to cast spells and such.David Gaider said that demons are attracted to power.Be it political or magical anyone with power is an attractive target to demons.

That's why that desire demon possesed connor.He wasn't a strong mage by any means but his father was an arl.That made him a desireable target.If all mages were suddenly to dissapear possesions won't stop.Demons would simply start to seek out regular people instead.

There was that one noble who thought she was safe from possesion because she wasn't a mage but in the end she became an abomination and used blood magic to fight us(which supports my theory that anyone can learn blood magic be they mage or mundane).

If that's the case, the world can become quite interesting during/after DA3. It's common knowledge that using blood magic sunders the veil and makes it far easier for Demons to cross even without posessing a body outside the fade. If DA2 is an accurate reflection of what mages do when they smell a way out, that means there's a lot of potential blood magic users in DA3. Namely just about every mage who is in very real danger of being found and killed by the templars. This much blood magic and death on a massive scale might be enough to sunder the veil across the entire continent, allowing demons free reign across Thedas.

Wouldn't it be cool if this entire war was centuries in the making by some very powerful demons who had anticipated and awaited this moment since they first taught blood magic to the first archon of Tevinter?

[Drakar123]

It would certainly be interesting...but I still believe that it was the old gods who taught Archon Thalsian blood magic.I for one welcome the end of the veil.Before it existed dragons ruled the world unchallenged.I look forward to seeing them take back what is rightfully theirs.Never mind that once the veil dissapears everybody will be capable of using magic which should lead to total anarchy in most countries what with all the anti mage propaganda and the laws prohibiting mages from having lands or titles.Imagine if every qunari was suddenly seerebas ?The chaos.It will be glorious.

[lil yonce]

Robhuzz wrote...

Wouldn't it be cool if this entire war was centuries in the making by some very powerful demons who had anticipated and awaited this moment since they first taught blood magic to the first archon of Tevinter?

Sounds highly plausible.

[Drakar123]

I feel obligated to point out that blood magic by itself doesn't sunder the veil.Using regular magic does but blood magic has nothing to do with the fade which is why it is the safest form of magic to use if you don't want demons to come after you.Of course if you did massive blood magic rituals and killed an enormous amount of people then would certainly make it easier for demons to cross over.Death does sunder the veil quite a bit.This is also why I don't believe demons are the ones responsible for teaching Thalsian blood magic.It draws power from a completely different source then regular magic and has nothing to do with the fade.It comes from the physycal world.The old gods are probably the ones who taught it to the humans since dragons are the blood of the world and their blood is far more powerful then that of humans.

[Solmanian]

OK, I'll break it down:
1. "While there are powerful bloodlines in tevinter they don't guarantee you a magister position.Any mage regardless of social standing or amount of wealth can become a magister.". Hmm, don't remember seeing any magisters in rags... And all those slaves/blood sacrifices, can't be cheap. Blood magic relies on blood. More blood, more power. Meaning the guy with the most slaves in his dissposal will be the most powerfull. For which you need wealth... Atleast in the other circles that ban blood mage, knowledge and skill are indeed the (almost) most importent chrecteristic. Political cunning is mandatory for higher echelons.

2. "They can also become magisters if they are powerful mages.There is no discrimination in Tevinter.Even is someone does manage to buy the magister position they would quickly get killed because of their incompetence.". So, there is no indiscrimination as long as you're powerfull enough to take what you want, and keep it. Sounds like the perfect form of governance...

3. "The strong rule while the weak are ruled except the difference between strong warriors and mages is that to be a powerful mage you have to also be very intelligent". Did you miss the part I wrote about how nobleman in feudal times were the best educated individuals? Yes, the common soldier doesn't have to be smart, but that's irrelevant. An effective commander has to have genious level intelect or die. Stratagy and logistics are the bread and butter of command, and prepare you much better for politics and governance, than the pursuit of power in the circles. How dedicated the mages are to knowledge, doesn't testify to the narrowness of that knowledge. How much do they teach mages about physics? Engineering? Agricolture? Architecture? Philosophy? Economics? Or any of the social sciences? A knight was expected to be well educated or he was considered no better than a commoner with good gear.

By your own testimony, the magister with less magic-related knowledge had the decreased chance of survival. Meaning, magisters are penalised for porsuing other interests other than magic, making them the worst candidates for governance (using their subject as a feul source for their spells, doesn't help them either...).

3. "Tevinter has never had an Archon who was a bad leader because of this while every other country on Thedas has had it's fair share of weak kings and figure heads". This is based on what? If you have an actual codex entry that says "Tevinter has never had an Archon who was a bad leader" please present it... The fact that tevinter culture has been in a steady decline for a thousand years and the fact that they are universaly despised in thedas (being the thedas answer to batarians), shows that if anything tevinter rulers aren't very good at what they do. Even if you're a people that performs atrocities on a daily basis, you can still have good PR.

4. "Mageocracy also promotes the pursuit of knowledge(something which our society doesn't in certain areas because the rich want to stay that way.Take the oil barons as an example) because doing so would advance your rank and while it isn't perfect no system is.". I allready explained that the persuit of specific knowledge doesn't neccessarily means they know alot on non-magic related issues. A chemist will probably know very little on physics. And it will be very dangerous assumption thinking rich=stupid. Companies with stupid CEO's get rid of him, or go bankrupt. The rich people greed isn't larger than regular people's greed, they're just better materiliasing it. Unless you won the lottery, rich don't become wealthy without knowing how to capitlize their strentghs nd marginilize their weaknesses. If anything, being a successfull CEO is a great preparation to head a country, much better a science/magic degree...

And since you enjoyed that last quote:

“Power does not corrupt. Fear corrupts... perhaps the fear of a loss of power.”
― John Steinbeck

P.S.
I'm sorry that I have a tendency to write this walls of text, just can't help myself.

Modifié par Solmanian, 04 décembre 2012 - 08:03 .

[Robhuzz]

Drakar123 wrote...

I feel obligated to point out that blood magic by itself doesn't sunder the veil.Using regular magic does but blood magic has nothing to do with the fade which is why it is the safest form of magic to use if you don't want demons to come after you.Of course if you did massive blood magic rituals and killed an enormous amount of people then would certainly make it easier for demons to cross over.Death does sunder the veil quite a bit.This is also why I don't believe demons are the ones responsible for teaching Thalsian blood magic.It draws power from a completely different source then regular magic and has nothing to do with the fade.It comes from the physycal world.The old gods are probably the ones who taught it to the humans since dragons are the blood of the world and their blood is far more powerful then that of humans.

Hmm interesting. Coupled with your earlier post about the veil not having been there all along I am reminded of Sandal's prophecy in DA2 which comes eerily close to what you're describing. I believe he says something about all of the magic returning and something rising when everything returns to how it once was.

[Solmanian]

Should be noted that being a reaver is considered a form of blood magic.

[Maria Caliban]

Solmanian wrote...

Should be noted that being a reaver is considered a form of blood magic.

Being a Grey Warden is considered a form of blood magic.

[Drakar123]

Well there is a distinction.The ritual in which you become a grey warden is a form of blood magic.The same is true for the reaver ritual but the abilities granted by that ritual are blood magic while in the case of wardens only the joining itself is blood magic.

Anyway I agree that Mageocracy isn't the perfect system and I greatly prefer democracy myself but I still think that it's better then an aristocracy.No petty nobles who leech off the populace and have parties all day while the commoners die of plague and starvation.Magisters actually pursue knowledge in their spare time which benefits everyone.I admit to having a bit of a soft spot for the imperium.There's nothing I like more then when people try to rise above their station and challenge god.It's kind of poetic...Due to this I tend to overlook most of it's flaws.

And Robhuzz if you are curious I recommend you to read the silent grove and those who speak comics.That's where it's mentioned by Yavena a witch of the wilds.They are pretty interesting and help you by giving you a greater understanding of the lore.

[hoorayforicecream]

Drakar123 wrote...

I feel obligated to point out that blood magic by itself doesn't sunder the veil.Using regular magic does but blood magic has nothing to do with the fade which is why it is the safest form of magic to use if you don't want demons to come after you.

False. Blood magic is the only magic that can open the veil enough to let demons physically pass through.

Over time, however, the Imperium discovered types of spells that could only be worked by blood. Although lyrium will allow a mage to send his conscious mind into the Fade, blood would allow him to find the sleeping minds of others, view their dreams, and even influence or dominate their thoughts. Just as treacherous, blood magic allows the Veil to be opened completely so that demons may physically pass through it into our world.

Source

[Solmanian]

My point is magocracy isn't different than aristocracy, it's just more discriminate. You can gain a title by financial and martial success, but you have to be born a mage. Any non mages in tevinter are less than nothing. "No petty nobles who leech off the populace and have parties all day while the commoners die of plague and starvation.". Srsly? Cailen only died because he was on front line. That sentence sounds like it came from a french revolution/marxist propoganda... Even IRL nobles (mostly) weren't that bad. Terible kings/nobles had a tendency to parish in peasant uprisings. Since the days of rome a ruler was dependant on the populace, the military and the senat (replaced by the church later on). You had to have the support of two of that trio if you hoped to remain in power, and all three if you planned on being effective. And realy?

Nobles who take taxes < Magisters who take taxes and blood...

Even the most depraved rulers who actually did drank blood IRL, didn't make a common practice for every nobleman. Having a noble popping a peasent vain every time he wants to cast a spell is an express way to civil unrest. There is no way the common man in Tevinter is even remotely happy with the status quo (slavers seem content though). The magisters probably threaten them day and night with the atrocities the qunari will do to them without the magisters protection.

[Drakar123]

I never said that blood magic can't be used to open the veil.It's one of it's primary uses as we saw in Dragon age 2 where every mage and their mother decided to summon demons and become abominations.What I did say is that the veil doesn't grow thinner just because you are using blood magic.Regular magic thins the veil and continous use of it will overtime weaken the veil to the point of demons being able to pass through without being summoned.Blood magic doesn't since it doesn't draw power from the fade but it can indeed be used to force the veil open.

Edit: I did say I tend to overlook the Imperium's flaws...It still beats every country but Ferelden in my book and even then it comes pretty close.And Cailan died because he was an idiot...Good ridance too.If he didn't he would have given Ferelden to orlais by marying Celene.Tell you what here's a thread in which I discussed mageocracy in greater detail.I would rather not derail this thread further and am far to lazy and tired to write it all over again.And just so you know you are not the only one who writes huge walls of text.You have been warned.

http://social.biowar.../index/15052285

Modifié par Drakar123, 04 décembre 2012 - 09:09 .

[Robhuzz]

Drakar123 wrote...

I never said that blood magic can't be used to open the veil.It's one of it's primary uses as we saw in Dragon age 2 where every mage and their mother decided to summon demons and become abominations.What I did say is that the veil doesn't grow thinner just because you are using blood magic.Regular magic thins the veil and continous use of it will overtime weaken the veil to the point of demons being able to pass through without being summoned.Blood magic doesn't since it doesn't draw power from the fade but it can indeed be used to force the veil open.

The lore and codex in particular seem to directly counter this argument. It states very clearly that blood magic, when used to summon demons, will sunder the veil. Regular magic, however, doesn't. If it did then places with high magic activity, like pretty much every circle tower in thedas, would have a veil that's very weak and demons would be crossing over constantly.

Modifié par Robhuzz, 04 décembre 2012 - 09:11 .

[hoorayforicecream]

Drakar123 wrote...

I never said that blood magic can't be used to open the veil.It's one of it's primary uses as we saw in Dragon age 2 where every mage and their mother decided to summon demons and become abominations.What I did say is that the veil doesn't grow thinner just because you are using blood magic.Regular magic thins the veil and continous use of it will overtime weaken the veil to the point of demons being able to pass through without being summoned.Blood magic doesn't since it doesn't draw power from the fade but it can indeed be used to force the veil open.

The codex mentions in several places that suffering thins the veil as well as lyrium. While it's theoretically possible that there are benevolent blood mages that use blood without any suffering, I find it unlikely that your speculation is actually substantiated in any real way.

[Drakar123]

You seem to have misunderstood.Of course the veil would grow thinner if you summon demons through it.What I meant was that it doesn't grow thinner if you use blood magic for other things like mind control,rituals and such as long as those things don't involve people dying.Regular magic on the other hand does weaken the veil over time regardless of what it's used for.This is because regular magic draws power from the fade which has to pass through the veil to reach the physical world.That's why the veil is thinner in areas of high magic activity.Of course it takes a lot of time for the veil to weaken to the point where demons will be able to freely pass through.Many centuries even.And the veil is weaker near every circle tower although one could argue that that is because mages decided to build circle towers in areas where the veil is weak because it's easier to use magic in those areas.According to David Gaider places where the veil is particulary thick make it very difficult to use magic.

[Major Crackhead]

I'd wish being a Blood Mage would change how other characters viewed you, even if it was just a few lines of dialogue, like a party member showing disgust.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Major Crackhead wrote...

I'd wish being a Blood Mage would change how other characters viewed you, even if it was just a few lines of dialogue, like a party member showing disgust.

This.  Or being able to mentor Merrill in blood magic so she uses it more wisely.  I like reactive worlds, and reacting to something as significant (in-universe) as a blood mage would be really cool.

[Solmanian]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Major Crackhead wrote...

I'd wish being a Blood Mage would change how other characters viewed you, even if it was just a few lines of dialogue, like a party member showing disgust.

This.  Or being able to mentor Merrill in blood magic so she uses it more wisely.  I like reactive worlds, and reacting to something as significant (in-universe) as a blood mage would be really cool.

Merril is more experienced in blood magic than hawke, if anything she would mentor him (she did one shot that poor demon in the deep roads).

I assume that blood magic is looked upon in thedas like we would look upon something like rape or animal/children abuse. Your party wouldn't just be disgusted, it will leave you. Good luck soloing those dungeons!