27 réponses à ce sujet

[Norman250]

I'm sorry if this isn't the place to put this, but I didn't see a forum for the novels.
Disclaimer 1: This post contains spoilers concering Dragon Age: Asunder. 
Disclaimer 2: I have not read the book, I've only had the plot described to me. 






Okay, so, I have heard that much of the book concerns the Rite of Tranquility, specifically, one Tranquil who goes into the fade to research it. The tranquil discovers that the rite can be reversed if the tranquil's mind is touched by a demon/spirit. So, correct me if I'm wrong (and believe me, I hope that I am) but wasn't the entire point of making a tranquil to cut off their connection to the fade, and therefore make them immune to demonic possession, eliminating the danger the mage posed? So, hopefully someone who has read the book will explain to me why A) the tranquil researcher is able to enter the fade, and Why getting possessed by a demon is the cure to the Templar's cure to getting possessed by demons?
I will be reading the book myself, but this seemingly gargantuan plot hole is just nagging at my mind and I can't ignore it any longer. 

[Adanu]

This is not a plot hole, this is an unexplained occurance. The researcher found a way to do it, and we don't know the how yet.

Jumping to plot hole from that is common among those who can't stand things being unexplained though.

[Xiltas]

Well, it's not quite like that, though close:

The tranquil, Pharamond, was told to find out more about the Rite, travelling to a place where the Veil is weak. From what I understand, the rite closes off the mage from the fade, and makes him/her "invisible" to demons and spirits.
That particular place (though it apparently just needs to be a spot with a weak Veil) enabled him to "tell" a spirit where to find him; By being close to the spirit, the Rite was reversed (he was pretty emotional afterwards).
The Demonic possession happened afterwards.

[Maria Caliban]

Norman250 wrote...

So, hopefully someone who has read the book will explain to me why A) the tranquil researcher is able to enter the fade...

Dwarves, who are have no natural connection to the Fade, can enter the Fade. As afar as we know, only Darkspawn are completely and utterly unable to interact with the Fade... and that's just speculation.

Why getting possessed by a demon is the cure to the Templar's cure to getting possessed by demons?

Because demons and spirits are constantly connected to the Fade.

[PsychoBlonde]

A.) He doesn't enter the Fade. He summons a demon OUT of the Fade.

B.) Getting possessed is not the cure for Tranquility, exactly. What needs to happen is that a spirit be enticed to *attempt* to possess the Tranquil mage, which reestablishes the connection between the Fade and the mage, thus reversing the Rite.

Yes, Tranquility does sever a mage's connection to the Fade, however, a demon (or other spirit, we don't know) apparently can reestablish this link if they are enticed to try. Spirits won't bother, and demons have to be pushed because the Tranquil mage is pretty much invisible to them, but if someone basically points out where the Tranquil is and yells "COME AND GET IT!" the demon can possess them. Demons can also possess non-mages and even animals or corpses in this fashion as well, or where the Veil is thin enough.

I don't see why this is a "plot hole". It's a new discovery that brings on some pretty hairy problems. At no point have they stated that anybody in Thedas understands exactly how magic works. This is part of the reason why it's so dangerous. They didn't state that Tranquility was perfect, only that this is what they've done thus far. Heck, the possibility of it not being perfect was established in DA2 with Anders and Karl--Anders was able to allow Karl to temporarily reconnect with the Fade.

A plot hole is not just a new development, it's something that actively contradicts something else that has happened, or that just isn't explained in any way. This doesn't contradict anything, nor is it unexplained, in fact, David Gaider goes to some lengths to explain it.

It's theoretically possible that with some refinement, a mage could enter the Fade using Lyrium (or blood magic), and undo the Rite from that end in some other way, but nobody understands enough about how the process actually works (or what it looks like from the other end) to accomplish this at this stage. A dreamwalker like Feynriel might be able to do it since apparently they can enter and control other people's dreams in the Fade.

Scary thought if someone like Feynriel could mass un-Tranquil mages across Thedas.

[PsychoBlonde]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Dwarves, who are have no natural connection to the Fade, can enter the Fade. As afar as we know, only Darkspawn are completely and utterly unable to interact with the Fade... and that's just speculation.

Didn't the Mother send both you and The Withered into the Fade in Awakening?  How could she do that if Darkspawn can't interact with the Fade?  Granted the Mother and the Withered were both self-willed "free" darkspawn at that point.  Not sure whether we've seen anything to confirm or deny this speculation regarding other darkspawn, so it seems pretty arbitrary to me.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Norman250 wrote...

So, hopefully someone who has read the book will explain to me why A) the tranquil researcher is able to enter the fade...

Dwarves, who are have no natural connection to the Fade, can enter the Fade. As afar as we know, only Darkspawn are completely and utterly unable to interact with the Fade... and that's just speculation.

You forget to mention my mabari dog and Shale, the golem. Not sure if both dog and stone can dream in Thedas tho.

[Maria Caliban]

Dogs can dream. I don't know about golems.

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Didn't the Mother send both you and The Withered into the Fade in Awakening?

I have no idea.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 04 décembre 2012 - 10:08 .

[PsychoBlonde]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Dogs can dream. I don't know about golems.
 

Well, Shale was formerly a dwarf, and she mentions that she's never dreamed before if you take her to the Fade.  So, apparently golems made from dwarves don't dream, at least.  Heh:

An engineer, a physicist, and a mathematician were on a train heading north, and had just crossed the border into Scotland.[*]The engineer looked out of the window and said "Look! Scottish sheep are black!"[*]The physicist said, "No, no. Some Scottish sheep are black."[*]The mathematician looked irritated. "There is at least one field, containing at least one sheep, of which at least one side is black."[/list]

[Maria Caliban]

Do Golems Dream of Demonic Pigeons?

[Norman250]

Ah, that makes more sense then how it was described to me. Like I said, it only seemed to be a plot hole to me, that's why I was asking before I jumped to conclusions, sorry if I gave the impression that I was writing it off as a plot hole.

[Doctoglethorpe]

You should really just read the book and discover it the good way.  But if you must know now, heres an excerpt from the book where he explains it:



[SPOILER]

Pharamond:  "I realized early on that Tranquility wasn't repairable on this side of the Fade.  It needed to be done from the other side.  A spirit had to bridge that gap--and it could only do that if it knew exactly where to look.  The Rite renders the Tranquil invisible to spirits."

Evangeline:  "They're not just invisible, they're immune..."

Pharamond:  "Not immune!  Undesirable!  A demon looks to posses a man because it wishes to experience life.  To them a Tranquil is no better than an inanimate object.  Worse, since a Tranquil will resist.  If its going to cross that bridge to possess a Tranquil , it needs to be lured...

[snip]

Pharamond:  "I believed a demon needed to try to posses me, that the act of trying itself would itself restore my connection to the Fade.  But that wasn't it at all.  I only needed the demon to reach across that gap and touch my mind, nothing more.  The instant it happened, I was cured.  The posession came... later."

[Fredward]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Do Golems Dream of Demonic Pigeons?

+5 internets to you. XD

[terdferguson123]

Just because something doesn't have an explanation in an unfinished series does not mean it is a plot hole....

If anything it is an interesting development for tranquil, it shows that the process is used but the consequences are not yet fully understood, which frankly, happens ALL the time in modern science (and sci fi/fantasy novels).

At the end of the day, I am just sick of people overusing the word "plot hole". Not everything is a plot hole, especially in a series that isn't even completed yet.

[Norman250]

terdferguson123 wrote...

Just because something doesn't have an explanation in an unfinished series does not mean it is a plot hole....

If anything it is an interesting development for tranquil, it shows that the process is used but the consequences are not yet fully understood, which frankly, happens ALL the time in modern science (and sci fi/fantasy novels).

At the end of the day, I am just sick of people overusing the word "plot hole". Not everything is a plot hole, especially in a series that isn't even completed yet.

I take it you didn't read my second comment. 

[Swagger7]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Dogs can dream. I don't know about golems.
 

Well, Shale was formerly a dwarf, and she mentions that she's never dreamed before if you take her to the Fade.  So, apparently golems made from dwarves don't dream, at least.  


[*]

[*]

[*]
Isn't Shale's lack of dreaming due to the fact she can't sleep?
[*]
[*]EDIT: OMG STUPID BULLET POINTS!

Modifié par Swagger7, 06 décembre 2012 - 12:57 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Maria Caliban wrote...

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Didn't the Mother send both you and The Withered into the Fade in Awakening?

I have no idea.

Yes, an Awakened darkspawn (The First) goes into the Fade in Awakening.

[Veex]

Doctor Moustache wrote...



[/i]Pharamond: [i] "Not immune!  Undesirable!  A demon looks to posses a man because it wishes to experience life.  To them a Tranquil is no better than an inanimate object.  Worse, since a Tranquil will resist.  If its going to cross that bridge to possess a Tranquil , it needs to be lured...

Thank you for finding the quotes Moustache, saves me the trouble. As it is explained in the book, Tranquil aren't immune to possession, just the least desirable host. 

[Wolfspawn]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Do Golems Dream of Demonic Pigeons?

The film version will be called, "Bird Crusher".

Modifié par bob_20000, 06 décembre 2012 - 04:07 .

[Norman250]

Question aside, how is the book, in a booky sense?
Worth the buy?

[Doctoglethorpe]

Norman250 wrote...

Question aside, how is the book, in a booky sense?
Worth the buy?

Yes, its really good. 

[Zippy72]

Norman250 wrote...

Question aside, how is the book, in a booky sense?
Worth the buy?

If you like fantasy and you're invested in the Dragon age lore then yes. Otherwise, no. What is a 'booky sense' exactly?

[nightscrawl]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Dogs can dream. I don't know about golems.

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Didn't the Mother send both you and The Withered into the Fade in Awakening?

I have no idea.

Have you not played DAA? You have the badge for it under your avatar...

At any rate, yes this is what happens. The First is supposed to trick the Warden and eventually trap her in the fade, unfortunately for him, he gets pulled in too. This is where you meet Justice as his natural form, the Spirit of Justice. The First attempts to get this witch to help him out, some stuff happens, and the witch uses The First's life energy (killing him) to send your entire group, including Justice, back into the real world, where Justice is now trapped in the body of the dead Warden, Kristoff.

For what it's worth, Oghren is really pissed and uneasy when going into the fade (in DAA -- I've never done the mage tower with him in DAO), as he didn't think it was possible. "This is the fade? That's where humans go when they dream isn't it? Dwarves don't dream, we sleep like the stone! I shouldn't be here!"

Modifié par nightscrawl, 06 décembre 2012 - 04:28 .

[thats1evildude]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Didn't the Mother send both you and The Withered into the Fade in Awakening?

Technically, it was you and The First, plus a number of other darkspawn. I believe that nearly any conscious being can be pulled into the Fade.

The Architect mentions being able to communicate with the First Enchanter in the Fade during The Calling, though that may be a case of Early Installment Weirdness.

I think it's safe to assume the darkspawn know about the Fade, as they're able to summon spirits out of it. They simply don't care about it, just as demons don't generally care about them.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 06 décembre 2012 - 04:57 .