38 réponses à ce sujet

[SpunkyMonkey]

Doctor Moustache wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Doctor Moustache wrote...

The reason you feel like you had more choice in determining the wardens personality is because the warden has no personality to begin with. Its literally a blank slate for you to imagine whatever you wish, an avatar. Not saying that's bad, just what it is.

A voiced and animated protagonist will never achieve that same feeling.

I think it's even simpler than that.  Hawke doesn't have a personality either, we never see Hawke being Hawke regardless of our choices, we assign Hawke one of the three personalities.  The problem is that Hawke has tone.  The Warden's line's are pure text so we read them in whatever tone we think our character would say them based on the personality we've given them.  If you play a generally nice guy who gets angry and threatens somebody you're probably hearing the threat as righteous fury rather than sadistic glee.

Because Hawke's lines are voiced we lose that.  If you play a diplomatic Hawke who gets angry and threatens somebody he/she doesn't sound like a nice person who's been pushed too far they sound like a nice person with a split personality.

Silent protagonists allow us to play more nuanced characters because the subtleties of language are left to the player so there's no disconnect when you make the odd choice against type.  There's no real solution for a voiced protagonist unless you have the VA's record every line 3 (or more) times with 3 slightly different inflections (not going to happen), or have VA's be so bland that it's the same tone regardless of the choice you make.

I disagree.  I mixed Hawke up quite a bit and felt it was blended very well.  Whenever I hear people say you have to pretty much stick with one of three archetypes to not sound bipolar I wonder what game they were even playing, not the same I did. 

I agree with DPSSOC, Hawke seemed almost schizophrenic at times with his drastic change in personality - certainly if you used the "funny" line.

Whenever I hear people say you don't have to pretty much stick with one of three archetypes to not sound bipolar I wonder what game they were even playing, not the same I did. 

Modifié par SpunkyMonkey, 05 décembre 2012 - 12:50 .

[Doctoglethorpe]

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

Doctor Moustache wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Doctor Moustache wrote...

The reason you feel like you had more choice in determining the wardens personality is because the warden has no personality to begin with. Its literally a blank slate for you to imagine whatever you wish, an avatar. Not saying that's bad, just what it is.

A voiced and animated protagonist will never achieve that same feeling.

I think it's even simpler than that.  Hawke doesn't have a personality either, we never see Hawke being Hawke regardless of our choices, we assign Hawke one of the three personalities.  The problem is that Hawke has tone.  The Warden's line's are pure text so we read them in whatever tone we think our character would say them based on the personality we've given them.  If you play a generally nice guy who gets angry and threatens somebody you're probably hearing the threat as righteous fury rather than sadistic glee.

Because Hawke's lines are voiced we lose that.  If you play a diplomatic Hawke who gets angry and threatens somebody he/she doesn't sound like a nice person who's been pushed too far they sound like a nice person with a split personality.

Silent protagonists allow us to play more nuanced characters because the subtleties of language are left to the player so there's no disconnect when you make the odd choice against type.  There's no real solution for a voiced protagonist unless you have the VA's record every line 3 (or more) times with 3 slightly different inflections (not going to happen), or have VA's be so bland that it's the same tone regardless of the choice you make.

I disagree.  I mixed Hawke up quite a bit and felt it was blended very well.  Whenever I hear people say you have to pretty much stick with one of three archetypes to not sound bipolar I wonder what game they were even playing, not the same I did. 

I agree with DPSSOC, Hawke seemed almost schizophrenic at times with his drastic change in personality - certainly if you used the "funny" line.

Whenever I hear people say you don't have to pretty much stick with one of three archetypes to not sound bipolar I wonder what game they were even playing, not the same I did. 

Well, I agree that you agree with that which I disagree with, thus disagreeing with my disagreement of that which you agree. 

[upsettingshorts]

EntropicAngel wrote...

In DA ][, I can't do any of that. I can be Sarcastic, Diplomatic, or Aggressive. I can't be Sarcastic towards nobility, and Diplomatic towards the poorer folk--in theory I can, but the auto-dialog thing [based on your dominant personality type (something which I think could be great if done correctly--but that's the operative word)] wrests control from me.

It's backwards from how you said it.

You must have played an entirely different game from me.

I was direct and impatient with extremist mages and Templars, and diplomatic and understanding with moderates of both sides.

That my combat banter and fetch quest-returning auto-dialogue reflected a diplomatic approach due to personality tracking did not prevent me from making any of those dialogue choices in any way I wanted at any time for any reason.  Dialogue tracking in DA2 is not Paragon/Renegade in Mass Effect.

In fact, in Act 1 my personality tracking auto-dialogue for my Hawke was Diplomatic as I said, but given the increasingly high number of extremists in Kirkwall by Act 3, my personality tracking actually shifted to Aggressive by the end of the game.  But it was reacting to my character's choices, not dictating them.

EntropicAngel wrote...

Eh, I can't agree with this, myself. I personally feel the choice is more important than the world reacting to it.

That's the difference.

I don't recognize the choice exists if the game doesn't react to it.   Simple.  I don't see the point of playing a cRPG otherwise.

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

Whenever I hear people say you don't have to pretty much stick with one of three archetypes to not sound bipolar I wonder what game they were even playing, not the same I did.  

Whenever I hear people say they feel that Hawke was schizophrenic I have to wonder if they've ever met another human or watched one on TV or in film.

Tone, volume, and inflection change when people are trying to express different ideas and emotional states.  

It's almost as if folks offering such arguments imagine their protagonist ought to sound like Ben Stein.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 05 décembre 2012 - 03:18 .

[upsettingshorts]

EntropicAngel wrote...

To define a character? Choice reaction doesn't define your character: the choice itself does.

To define a character?  Technically no.

To enjoy playing a cRPG?  For me?  Absolutely.  

[upsettingshorts]

EntropicAngel wrote...

I just feel like DA:O's style gives more RPing freedom.

I wouldn't actually dispute that.  Just whatever freedoms it offers do not appeal to me as I do not recognize them.  In making the changes it does, DA2 removes those freedoms (no loss for me) and reacts more explicitly to the choices it does offer (big gain for me).  

That other people see a huge loss in the reduction of freedom and no gains from reactivity (or dispute they exist) isn't something I'd dispute either.

It's subjective.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 05 décembre 2012 - 03:28 .

[esper]

:ph34r:Ninjaed by upsettingshorts

Modifié par esper, 05 décembre 2012 - 03:35 .

[esper]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

I just feel like DA:O's style gives more RPing freedom.

I wouldn't actually dispute that.  Just whatever freedoms it offers do not appeal to me as I do not recognize them.  In making the changes it does, DA2 removes those freedoms (no loss for me) and reacts more explicitly to the choices it does offer (big gain for me).  

That other people see a huge loss in the reduction of freedom and no gains from reactivity (or dispute they exist) isn't something I'd dispute either.

It's subjective.

You are expressing this so much more eloquent than me. This is exactly how I feel.

[DPSSOC]

Doctor Moustache wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Doctor Moustache wrote...

The reason you feel like you had more choice in determining the wardens personality is because the warden has no personality to begin with. Its literally a blank slate for you to imagine whatever you wish, an avatar. Not saying that's bad, just what it is.

A voiced and animated protagonist will never achieve that same feeling.

I think it's even simpler than that.  Hawke doesn't have a personality either, we never see Hawke being Hawke regardless of our choices, we assign Hawke one of the three personalities.  The problem is that Hawke has tone.  The Warden's line's are pure text so we read them in whatever tone we think our character would say them based on the personality we've given them.  If you play a generally nice guy who gets angry and threatens somebody you're probably hearing the threat as righteous fury rather than sadistic glee.

Because Hawke's lines are voiced we lose that.  If you play a diplomatic Hawke who gets angry and threatens somebody he/she doesn't sound like a nice person who's been pushed too far they sound like a nice person with a split personality.

Silent protagonists allow us to play more nuanced characters because the subtleties of language are left to the player so there's no disconnect when you make the odd choice against type.  There's no real solution for a voiced protagonist unless you have the VA's record every line 3 (or more) times with 3 slightly different inflections (not going to happen), or have VA's be so bland that it's the same tone regardless of the choice you make.

I disagree.  I mixed Hawke up quite a bit and felt it was blended very well.  Whenever I hear people say you have to pretty much stick with one of three archetypes to not sound bipolar I wonder what game they were even playing, not the same I did. 

Might just be when I made those choices but I got a lot of, "You know everyone just needs to learn to get along.  Look at me again and I'll rip your heart out!"  There were times when it blended well but the times that stand out (to me) are when it really didn't.

Upsettingshorts wrote...

SpunkyMonkey wrote...
Whenever I hear people say you don't have to pretty much stick with one of three archetypes to not sound bipolar I wonder what game they were even playing, not the same I did.

Whenever I hear people say they feel that Hawke was schizophrenic I have to wonder if they've ever met another human or watched one on TV or in film.

Tone, volume, and inflection change when people are trying to express different ideas and emotional states.

I've met a number of people, none of them shift that much that fast, none of the healthy ones anyway. Sudden drastic shifts in emotional state, particularly back and forth, are generally accepted as a sign of mental instability. Mood changes are gradual, swapping from Diplomatic to Aggressive Hawke is going from 0 to 90 in an instant.

[frostajulie]

DPSSOC wrote...

Doctor Moustache wrote...

The reason you feel like you had more choice in determining the wardens personality is because the warden has no personality to begin with. Its literally a blank slate for you to imagine whatever you wish, an avatar. Not saying that's bad, just what it is.

A voiced and animated protagonist will never achieve that same feeling.

I think it's even simpler than that.  Hawke doesn't have a personality either, we never see Hawke being Hawke regardless of our choices, we assign Hawke one of the three personalities.  The problem is that Hawke has tone.  The Warden's line's are pure text so we read them in whatever tone we think our character would say them based on the personality we've given them.  If you play a generally nice guy who gets angry and threatens somebody you're probably hearing the threat as righteous fury rather than sadistic glee.

Because Hawke's lines are voiced we lose that.  If you play a diplomatic Hawke who gets angry and threatens somebody he/she doesn't sound like a nice person who's been pushed too far they sound like a nice person with a split personality.

Silent protagonists allow us to play more nuanced characters because the subtleties of language are left to the player so there's no disconnect when you make the odd choice against type.  There's no real solution for a voiced protagonist unless you have the VA's record every line 3 (or more) times with 3 slightly different inflections (not going to happen), or have VA's be so bland that it's the same tone regardless of the choice you make.

OMG!  THat is perfect!  The exact reflection of why I prefer DAO's unvoiced protag to DA2's Hawke, thats why every Playthru of DAO felt like a different game and had so many infinite role play opportunities.  I created the tone of each warden in my head with my imagination so I had a angry city elf and a paragon city elf and many many many shades in between.

This is the best post ever to explain my own preferred protagonist.  YAY!

[Blackrising]

I can understand why some people might prefer to imagine themselves as the protagonist, I do, but...I could never do that. I don't want to.
The protagonists I play are just that: characters. Not stand-ins for myself. Frankly, I'd feel like a narcisstic pieve of dirt if I insisted on 'being' the main character. The romance parts would also make me feel like a creeper in that case.

So while I certainly project some of my own values and desires on the PC, no self-insert for me. Thus, Hawke being pre-defined to some extent doesn't bother me one bit.