77 réponses à ce sujet

[hoorayforicecream]

scyphozoa wrote...

Yeah, I never really understood the reasoning behind making unskippable cinematics/cutscenes. Is it just that devs want to prioritize content? It just seems so odd, like forcing a player that otherwise does not want to watch that cinematic is forced to do so.

I certainly won't be using this feature, but players should have options. I love the ME2 intro, but I know there are times I wish I could have skipped it. It is very situational and it should be up to the player to determine.

The ability to skip cutscenes can cause a lot of bugs. The main issue with cutscenes, especially in-engine cutscenes, is that you need all of the actors involved to be moved to their correct positions at the end of the cutscene, and all of the relevant flags to be set in script. Skipping the cutscene means that all of that needs to be taken care of and cleaned up when the cutscene ends.

Here's an example of what might happen.

1. Hawke approaches Isabela.
2. Hawke says "Greetings, Isabela."
3. Isabela takes a drink from a cup.
4. Isabela puts the cup down
5. Isabela replies "Hello, Hawke. Time to go?"
6. Isabela and Hawke walk to the door together.

Here are a few things that skipping this cutscene must do:

- Move Hawke and Isabela to the door
- Detach the cup from Isabela's hand if it is still attached.
- Hide or remove the cup if it is still visible and on the counter or attached to Isabela's hand.

These are all taken care of during the cutscene if you don't skip it. They can require additional effort if you skip. It behooves the gameplay programmers to create a system that can advance through all of the cutscene-related scripts properly to their end if need be, but even then you can get some artifacting (if you skip cutscene segments in SWTOR, for example, you can often spot some sliding around as the characters are moved into position).

Edit: I also wanted to add that cutscenes can be smoke and mirrors that hide other things happening behind the scenes. For example, you can get away with doing some data streaming from disc while playing a cutscene, (like a new area, a new monster, textures, or other assets) and you don't want to show a loading screen instead because it will break some immersion. If you let them skip the cutscene, you've got no choice but to break out the loading screen.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 05 décembre 2012 - 05:44 .

[Brenden7]

I agree with OP; having to play the last part of Priority Earth in ME3 is highly annoying with the excessive cut scenes!

[slimgrin]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

scyphozoa wrote...

Yeah, I never really understood the reasoning behind making unskippable cinematics/cutscenes. Is it just that devs want to prioritize content? It just seems so odd, like forcing a player that otherwise does not want to watch that cinematic is forced to do so.

I certainly won't be using this feature, but players should have options. I love the ME2 intro, but I know there are times I wish I could have skipped it. It is very situational and it should be up to the player to determine.

The ability to skip cutscenes can cause a lot of bugs. The main issue with cutscenes, especially in-engine cutscenes, is that you need all of the actors involved to be moved to their correct positions at the end of the cutscene, and all of the relevant flags to be set in script. Skipping the cutscene means that all of that needs to be taken care of and cleaned up when the cutscene ends.

Here's an example of what might happen.

1. Hawke approaches Isabela.
2. Hawke says "Greetings, Isabela."
3. Isabela takes a drink from a cup.
4. Isabela puts the cup down
5. Isabela replies "Hello, Hawke. Time to go?"
6. Isabela and Hawke walk to the door together.

Here are a few things that skipping this cutscene must do:

- Move Hawke and Isabela to the door
- Detach the cup from Isabela's hand if it is still attached.
- Hide or remove the cup if it is still visible and on the counter or attached to Isabela's hand.

These are all taken care of during the cutscene if you don't skip it. They can require additional effort if you skip. It behooves the gameplay programmers to create a system that can advance through all of the cutscene-related scripts properly to their end if need be, but even then you can get some artifacting (if you skip cutscene segments in SWTOR, for example, you can often spot some sliding around as the characters are moved into position).

Edit: I also wanted to add that cutscenes can be smoke and mirrors that hide other things happening behind the scenes. For example, you can get away with doing some data streaming from disc while playing a cutscene, (like a new area, a new monster, textures, or other assets) and you don't want to show a loading screen instead because it will break some immersion. If you let them skip the cutscene, you've got no choice but to break out the loading screen.

I've played games where I can skip every cut scene. RPG's, strategy, action games. I think it behooves the player to be able to skip any cut scene.

Modifié par slimgrin, 05 décembre 2012 - 05:56 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

slimgrin wrote...

Do you want skippable cutscenes, or a good story? Choose.

Since I make my own story, I can have both.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Imp of the Perverse wrote...

And please don't make the "skip cutscene" key/button the same button used to select dialog. When you're in dialog mode there's currently only one active key, so you don't need to worry about running out of buttons.

Yes, very much this.

I didn't know Uldred was even in Ostagar until my fifth character.  Since I routinely skip spoken lines of dialogue once I've read the subtitle, and the transition between spoken line and cutscene in DAO is invisible (probably by design), I tended to skip lines from Loghain or Cailan that, in fact, were not individual lines at all, but were part of a larger scene.  So I thought the conversation was over.

But it wasn't.  There was a whole sequence with Uldred storming out and establishing himself as an angry and unstable character, but I never saw it because I skipped the cutscene involuntarily.

[DahliaLynn]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

scyphozoa wrote...

Yeah, I never really understood the reasoning behind making unskippable cinematics/cutscenes. Is it just that devs want to prioritize content? It just seems so odd, like forcing a player that otherwise does not want to watch that cinematic is forced to do so.

I certainly won't be using this feature, but players should have options. I love the ME2 intro, but I know there are times I wish I could have skipped it. It is very situational and it should be up to the player to determine.

The ability to skip cutscenes can cause a lot of bugs. The main issue with cutscenes, especially in-engine cutscenes, is that you need all of the actors involved to be moved to their correct positions at the end of the cutscene, and all of the relevant flags to be set in script. Skipping the cutscene means that all of that needs to be taken care of and cleaned up when the cutscene ends.

Here's an example of what might happen.

1. Hawke approaches Isabela.
2. Hawke says "Greetings, Isabela."
3. Isabela takes a drink from a cup.
4. Isabela puts the cup down
5. Isabela replies "Hello, Hawke. Time to go?"
6. Isabela and Hawke walk to the door together.

Here are a few things that skipping this cutscene must do:

- Move Hawke and Isabela to the door
- Detach the cup from Isabela's hand if it is still attached.
- Hide or remove the cup if it is still visible and on the counter or attached to Isabela's hand.

These are all taken care of during the cutscene if you don't skip it. They can require additional effort if you skip. It behooves the gameplay programmers to create a system that can advance through all of the cutscene-related scripts properly to their end if need be, but even then you can get some artifacting (if you skip cutscene segments in SWTOR, for example, you can often spot some sliding around as the characters are moved into position).

Edit: I also wanted to add that cutscenes can be smoke and mirrors that hide other things happening behind the scenes. For example, you can get away with doing some data streaming from disc while playing a cutscene, (like a new area, a new monster, textures, or other assets) and you don't want to show a loading screen instead because it will break some immersion. If you let them skip the cutscene, you've got no choice but to break out the loading screen.

As far as the Dragon Age Toolset (and my memory) is concerned, much of what you mention above your edit isn't completely accurate.  Cutscenes in DA:O do not actually move characters or objects as they are not directly associated with the gameplay element, technically speaking. The cutscene environment does not conform to gameplay rules of physics. The fact that objects or characters are moved around is done outside of the cutscene environment, via a script that will run whether or not you decide to skip the scene.  So say you skip a cutscene in DA:O, the next screen you will see will be the corresponding changes made by the script/area settings, (as you mention the skipping around in SWTOR) not the cutscene actions themselves, which essentially does not require any additional work from the developers. .

I agree that you can peform loading actions as a cutscene plays, though from my experience, some cutscenes require much of the engine resources to play, so doing any heavy loading in the background wouldn't be a good idea under certain circumstances. But I imagine with computers getting stronger and engines more efficient that percentage will slowly decrease.

As an added note, if anyone in this thread is talking about interactive conversations and the vignettes that connect them, (which is not necessarily called a "cutscene" but rather a "conversation" in toolset talk), those directly refer to plot decisions and choices must be made, so skip points are added which affect the vignettes and/or long bits of dialogue, but you *must* select a dialogue option for the game to record and set the appropriate flags in order to continue. This is at least true with the DA:O toolset.  

Modifié par DahliaLynn, 05 décembre 2012 - 06:35 .

[Absafraginlootly]

While I don't do a replay if I don't want to see everything again (cut scenes, dialogue etc.) I still support this being a feature because it could be useful even in a first play through. If you've died in a fight and have to reload a bunch of times before you finally beat said fight you don't want to see the pre fight cut scene over and over again.

[Twisted Path]

I really started to hate the unskippable 20-minute-long Mass Effect 2 intro after I restarted the game for the third or fourth time because I didn't quite like the way my character's face looked in the game's regular lighting. "Hmm...actually I think different eyebrows would look better on Commander Shepard. Guess I have to go wash dishes or something while that 20 minute scene plays again."

Completely agree that all cutscenes should be skippable (and pausable while we're at it,) even the ones that the developers think are really awesome and cinematic.

[Kidd]

Imp of the Perverse wrote...

And please don't make the "skip cutscene" key/button the same button used to select dialog. When you're in dialog mode there's currently only one active key, so you don't need to worry about running out of buttons.

The dialogue wheel controls should be copied straight off ME3 imho. That game finally fixed the individuals beefs I had with the ME1/ME2 and DA2 wheels - namely there is no default highlighted option like in DA2 and the skip/confirm buttons are separate.

Absafraginlootly wrote...

While I don't do a replay if I don't want to see everything again (cut scenes, dialogue etc.) I still support this being a feature because it could be useful even in a first play through. If you've died in a fight and have to reload a bunch of times before you finally beat said fight you don't want to see the pre fight cut scene over and over again.

I just had horrible flashbacks of a certain fight in Tales of Vesperia. Terrific game, great battle, amazingly dramatic three minute pre-fight scene that really got me pumped... until I had seen it ~5 times and could quote it line by line >_>

[Ridwan]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

If there is no combat its not an RPG anymore, it is something else, it is more like an interactive movie, if Bioware want to make an interactive movie that is fine, but it still won't be an RPG.

I'm not being closed minded, an RPG without combat is not an RPG.

RPGs are a fluid definition, and I'll straight up that you and I have definitions that do not align.  As such, it's pointless to bother getting caught up in this.  Don't do it.


In fact, I would strongly encourage people to not go around telling people what is or is not "valid gameplay" in a video game.

Making choice, exploring areas, and making decisions outside of combat is not just an interactive movie.  And even if it is, it's interactive to the degree that the term "interactive movie" is meaningless.  DAO is just an interactive movie... where you control who and what the character attacks, where the character goes, what things he says, what class he is...

Using that logic, Super Mario Bros. is an interactive film too. You know that's a lame argument dude, come on. Look, I'll be the first guy to admit that I love DA: Origins, but I don't love it cause it's a freaking film. I love it because I'm in control, in a film you're not, it's a fixed path. In an interactive film all you do is sit on your ass, not touching your keyboard or mouse until your char hits a point where you have to click something once or twice, in DA: Origins, we run around killing werewolves, dragons and darkspawn, set traps, throw flasks, fireballs, press pause and move our rogues behind them.

There's a big difference. People pay for video games to actually be able to play them.

[Ridwan]

slimgrin wrote...

Do you want skippable cutscenes, or a good story? Choose.

You know you can have both.

[Allan Schumacher]

Edit: I also wanted to add that cutscenes can be smoke and mirrors that hide other things happening behind the scenes. For example, you can get away with doing some data streaming from disc while playing a cutscene, (like a new area, a new monster, textures, or other assets) and you don't want to show a loading screen instead because it will break some immersion. If you let them skip the cutscene, you've got no choice but to break out the loading screen.

This is typically the case, I find, if something is unskippable.

Using that logic, Super Mario Bros. is an interactive film too. You know that's a lame argument dude, come on.

I agree it's a lame argument. I was using exaggeration (similar to you) to illustrate that the term is pretty meaningless if one is going to nitpick what gameplay elements do and do not count.

In an interactive film all you do is sit on your ass, not touching your keyboard or mouse until your char hits a point where you have to click something once or twice

Well, then it's good to know that no one here is talking about an interactive film then.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Edit: I also wanted to add that cutscenes can be smoke and mirrors that hide other things happening behind the scenes. For example, you can get away with doing some data streaming from disc while playing a cutscene, (like a new area, a new monster, textures, or other assets) and you don't want to show a loading screen instead because it will break some immersion. If you let them skip the cutscene, you've got no choice but to break out the loading screen.

This is typically the case, I find, if something is unskippable.

In Mass Effect, the cutscenes that were unskippable tended to be the ones with a lot of movement (Shepard pacing pack and forth, characters running/jumping, etc.)  Is that just due to how ME was put together?  Is it a concern for DA3 with the new engine?  I remember dialogues in ME2 that were largely skippable, but had segments that couldn't be skipped even if it was just Shep walking a few feet while talking.

(Sorry if that was a bit incoherent, I'm having a bit of insomnia ATM.)

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 05 décembre 2012 - 10:25 .

[Allan Schumacher]

I have no idea why the ones in ME2 (or ME3) were unskippable. I was surprised myself. I do believe there's likely a reason! I just don't know what it is

[Sable Rhapsody]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I have no idea why the ones in ME2 (or ME3) were unskippable. I was surprised myself. I do believe there's likely a reason! I just don't know what it is

Fair enough.  Thank you for responding anyway 

If I recall correctly, it wasn't as much of a problem in DA2 as in ME2/3, and even cutscenes with character movement were usually skippable.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 05 décembre 2012 - 10:56 .

[Ozzy]

ME2's unskippable intro makes me want to cry.

[Allan Schumacher]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...
Fair enough.  Thank you for responding anyway 

If I recall correctly, it wasn't as much of a problem in DA2 as in ME2/3, and even cutscenes with character movement were usually skippable.

I have done a handful of critpath burnthroughs of both DAO and DA2 and I don't recall any that were unskippable (and when you're told get it done ASAP there is a greater chance of noticing - though it has been a while).

Might be something engine related as well.


The cutscene system with Frostbite will likely have some systemic differences compared to Eclipse (it's a collaborative effort by EA Vancouver and BioWare), but from our perspective feature parity with DA2 is considered the baseline.  This would include skipping cutscenes where the player loses control of the character.

I make this distinction because we *are* exploring features for conversation/cinematic functionality that doesn't require the player to forfeit control over their character.  These types of situations will likely have some barriers to being skipped, but they are also not likely to be used for key moments nor for longer scenes.

[Cimeas]

I don't know about you but I spacebarred through most of ME3's dialogue. If you mean *actual* cutscenes, then yeah, they mostly hide loading screens right.

[nightscrawl]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

... we *are* exploring features for conversation/cinematic functionality that doesn't require the player to forfeit control over their character.

Uh... OK back to the topic. Cutscenes, right.

[Wulfram]

krul2k wrote...

wasnt combat introduced into RPG and not RPG introduced into combat?

As I understand it RPGs grew out of someone taking a wargame to a tactical level

[Sable Rhapsody]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I make this distinction because we *are* exploring features for conversation/cinematic functionality that doesn't require the player to forfeit control over their character.  These types of situations will likely have some barriers to being skipped, but they are also not likely to be used for key moments nor for longer scenes.

That's good to hear.  Cutscenes, no matter how dramatic or well-done, get pretty old if you're replaying some decisions and can't skip any of it 

[Leoroc]

Does this mean cinematicy stuff like running around a castle while a dragon attacks it? Or wandering around an Orlesian Ball while people are waltzing and stuff? If so, awesome.

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...
Fair enough.  Thank you for responding anyway 

If I recall correctly, it wasn't as much of a problem in DA2 as in ME2/3, and even cutscenes with character movement were usually skippable.

I have done a handful of critpath burnthroughs of both DAO and DA2 and I don't recall any that were unskippable (and when you're told get it done ASAP there is a greater chance of noticing - though it has been a while).

Might be something engine related as well.


The cutscene system with Frostbite will likely have some systemic differences compared to Eclipse (it's a collaborative effort by EA Vancouver and BioWare), but from our perspective feature parity with DA2 is considered the baseline.  This would include skipping cutscenes where the player loses control of the character.

I make this distinction because we *are* exploring features for conversation/cinematic functionality that doesn't require the player to forfeit control over their character.  These types of situations will likely have some barriers to being skipped, but they are also not likely to be used for key moments nor for longer scenes.

[Monica21]

I'm not going to get bent out of shape if cutscenes aren't skippable. If I have to watch the lead up to the dialogue in the cutscene then, eh. The only thing I really, really don't want, ever again, is a player character cutscene that includes forced combat before I ever get to character creation. That is by far the most annoying thing about DA2.

[Koffeegirl]

I don't mind whether cutscenes are skippable or not, but I would like a pause button for cutscenes. I am not sure if PS3 and Xbox have one, but I know that PC does not (or if it does I never figured it out) would love the option to pause during a long cutscene (especially if there is a battle right before or after the cutscene).