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[Basher of Glory]

After more than one year I started DA II again, because I never played a bloodmage. I've read many of the guides here, realized, that there were some changes or "nerfs" to the class. Nevertheless, I wanted to try myself, although I never play "evil" stuff in all my RPGs.

I'm pretty sure, that most of my questions were answered elsewhere in the meantime. But instead of searching and reading through countless threads, I try to revive the discussion.

First of all : Would you agree, when I say, that we as players get a "blood magic light" which is enormously different to the bloodmagic we have to fight throughout the game?

We neither can summon something nor can we shapeshift into an abomination. All we get is a swap of the magic pool: HP instead of mana, two life draining spells and one domination spell.

Fine, but where is the logic? Would "Bloodmage Hawke" not make use of all the demons, which seem to be around all the time, invisible, until a weak mage surrenders his / her will to them? Is it beyond our Hawke to summon hordes of undead to fight something evil?

And that's the next question:
We see many scenes during the game, when a circle mage shapeshifts into some sort of demon. Mostly the do that, when in distress and all the times they are dead some seconds later, because Hawke was around. Thus, I never saw a "maleficar" shapeshifting back to human or elf.

Would they theoretically be able to shapeshift back or did they not only surrender their will but also their human (elf) form and would have to stay an abomination for the rest of their lifes?

From DA:O I learnt, that the demons lurke behind the Veil, always ready to jump a weak minded mage. So, if I understood that correctly the "Veil" is everywhere and shields the normal world against another dimension, right?

The normal human is not able to see "through the Veil" and even highly trained mages can do that only after certain rituals. On the other hand: Demons can see through the Veil and seem to be either incredibly numerous or omnipresent. Whenever a mage becomes weak in mind - plop - the demon next door is here and takes over.

Finally the "higher demons": They exploit already existing needs and grant some power in return. If not lead into such situations by others, our Hawke seems to be a person without needs. At least after Act II Hawke should be powerful and thus, promising enough for any higher demon to try a bargain. Nothing like that happens.

Final questions:
1) Did I miss some lore or is the absence of demons in Hawke's life just a question of game design?
2) Does every mage have kind of a "personal demon" which is always there or even "in" them, just waiting for a second of weakness to pop out?
3) Would you agree, when I say that a "Bloodmage Hawke" is by no means more powerful than any "normal" mage Hawke, besides the point of a larger pool to cast from?

Thx in advance for any reply!
 

[JoHnDoE14]

An especially well-written thread, OP!
Anyway, since I am in a bit of hurry, so I will keep this short.
Probably, BloodHawke can't summon demons because the spell system contains no summons(gameplay reasons; there is dog however...). Plus, as we've seen multiple times, demons are hard to control. So, I suppose that Hawke is one of the profficient users of Blood Magic, who don't risk without need (the very reason why he can't dominate other people in dialogue as well). And no, once you have the 'abomination form' you are an abomination. There are however cases, were the demon is particularily powerfull and can also retain the form of the host to spread havoc...
I hope my short rambling helped!

[Basher of Glory]

JoHnDoE14 wrote...

 ...can't summon demons because the spell system contains no summons(gameplay reasons; there is dog however...). Plus, as we've seen multiple times, demons are hard to control...

Right. No summons in the system except dog.

But as a "true Bloodmage" even Hawke would take the risk of failing the control of a summoned entity, because the temptation of doing so would be irresistible, right?

Clear case: 
A DLC would be necessary, in which Hawke learns just to pick the cherries off the as to the rest rotten cake!

[Thomas0910]

demons are not able to see through the veil
everything they know of the "normal" world is through the visions of dreaming mortals.
and they are not everywhere at any time, but they seek mages they consider weak
... a mage draws on the energy of the fade or manipulates it... however you want to see it
and this the demons feel... in the game it is said that a mage is a beacon to those demons..
the veil is usually impenetrable, only mortals pass it while dreaming.
spirits CAN use mages as a gate, if the mage agrees to it (demons can only offer)
or it overwhelms one of them: for this a mage first must initiate some connection
mortals are not able to do that and thus relatively safe against demonic possession
and theres of course the case of the veil being torn down... worst-case scenario
then they inhabit everything they consider alive... f.e. corpses and trees

demons are not everywhere but a demon pries on one mage he considers weak
it's not "plop", but it is "if you're interacting with demons: watch out!
because there are demons looking for an opportunity to pass the veil"

[Basher of Glory]

That's what the codex in DA II says: A demon cannot pass the Veil, unless it is summoned OR the Veil is thin. I guess, that's pretty much the same, as you wrote, right?

One example out of DA II:

There is a templer Thrask. He occasionally helps mages and thus, he is a "good" mann.
In one quest Hawke sees, how a female mage was hunted by slave traders, if I remember correctly in the foundry. The mage - in total distress - suddenly transformed into an abomination.
Bethany says later, that this happened only because the mage was cornered by the slave traders and din't know other ways to help herself.
Later, Thrask said that he knew, what she was.

Now, here we have this effect: A mage surrounded by bad guys and - plop - the demon appears.
She must have summoned the demon within a fragment of a second. And Thrask knew about her "weakness", so she did it before?

[Thomas0910]

being honest, i did not think of the possibility to summon a demon (stupid me) ^^
and i also did not play dragon age 2 yet
hope that will change someday ^^

if you care to know my interpretation
yes, i think she was able to summon a demon so fast, because, and thrask knew
that; she was a bloodmage... it's unlikely for a mage out of the tevinter empire
to learn it elsewhere but from a demon, thus she would have already turned on a demon
and even had some kind of agreement with it
and if not, i think she easily would've caught a demons attention
i don't know if it's because they could sense her despair or something
but i'm almost sure there's something like that

[Basher of Glory]

Ok. That seems to be the case, especially when we see other occurances like this: The young templar, who was interrogated by his captain, Orsino during a certain fight and so on.

Now, what is "our bloodmagic" against this? Nothing but a swap of the pool to cast from, right?

[Kidd]

Wasn't the girl simply a mage, not a blood mage? Her distress lead to a demon finding her and she was not strong enough to resist in that moment. For all intents and purposes, the demon killed her before her physical attackers did.

Modifié par KiddDaBeauty, 14 décembre 2012 - 12:38 .

[Basher of Glory]

Is it even possible for a demon to "jump" an unwilling mage?

[Face of Evil]

Baher of Glory wrote...

Is it even possible for a demon to "jump" an unwilling mage?

Yes, in a moment of weakness.

[Corker]

Thrask knew the girl was a mage, and that all mages are capable of becoming abominations. (He did not turn her over to the Gallows as he should have because -spoilers-.) Any mage, even if they've never been a blood mage ever, can become an abomination if they agree to 'let a demon in.' In DAO, this was mostly shown happening when the mage's mind was in the Fade, but the 'Stone Prisoner' DLC showed the possession of a conscious person.

The common wisdom is that only demons possess living mortals, and that the mortal's mind is destroyed in the process. The series has shown several exceptions, which are probably all spoilers, so I'll skip them. It was possible to "de-abominate" someone in DAO, but Marethari in DA2 believes any such process would cause irreparable spiritual harm to the mage.

The lore from the DAO DLC "Soldier's Peak" indicated that a blood mage could summon demons - and then have them turn on him once they crossed the Veil. The DA2 blood mages never seem to have this problem.

While Hawke can never summon demons, she can use Blood Control to puppet an opponent. -Spoiler- and -Spoiler- do this in DA2, but only in cutscenes. I've never played on the harder difficulties, but at lower levels I've never had an enemy blood mage make my companions turn on me in a fight.

The young templar Cullen interrogates, and the woman at the Blooming Rose, are possibly special cases. The Blooming Rose mage will tell Hawke that her magic is "blood and desire in equal measure." A follow-up quest in Act Two reveals that the group of mages was in communion with an extremely powerful and unique "deep Fade entity" (which may or may not be related to the Band of Three codices). They seem to have been practicing something beyond usual blood magic.

"Soldier's Peak" also introduced lore that blood magic can affect the darkspawn taint, and that the taint is particularly effective against demons (but blood magic, being a gift from them, isn't). Merrill's work with the mirror reinforces that. One assumes Hawke does not have access to such skills because they're not applicable to combat.

[TEWR]

In DAO, this was mostly shown happening when the mage's mind was in the Fade, but the 'Stone Prisoner' DLC showed the possession of a conscious person.

But that was forced possession caused by a Demon being outside of the Fade, not the case with Olivia and other Mages where they seem to be possessed while conscious and with no Demons in the vicinity.

The lore from the DAO DLC "Soldier's Peak" indicated that a blood mage could summon demons - and then have them turn on him once they crossed the Veil.

Only if there's a lot of death, suffering, and blood I gathered. So much of that tends to make any attempts at controlling Demons pointless.

[thats1evildude]

Corker wrote...

The common wisdom is that only demons possess living mortals, and that the mortal's mind is destroyed in the process. The series has shown several exceptions, which are probably all spoilers, so I'll skip them. It was possible to "de-abominate" someone in DAO, but Marethari in DA2 believes any such process would cause irreparable spiritual harm to the mage.

In fairness to Marethari, she's not altogether mistaken. It is a horribly traumatizing experience to be possessed by a demon; even Eamon comments that Connor seems different after his ordeal.

Corker wrote...

The lore from the DAO DLC "Soldier's Peak" indicated that a blood mage could summon demons - and then have them turn on him once they crossed the Veil. The DA2 blood mages never seem to have this problem.

This is also what happened to Uldred, who attempted to summon a demon that proved too strong for him.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 19 décembre 2012 - 03:32 .

[LobselVith8]

Baher of Glory wrote...

First of all : Would you agree, when I say, that we as players get a "blood magic light" which is enormously different to the bloodmagic we have to fight throughout the game? 

We neither can summon something nor can we shapeshift into an abomination. All we get is a swap of the magic pool: HP instead of mana, two life draining spells and one domination spell.

You only turn into an abomination if you become possessed by a demon. The act of changing shape is a different school of magic (as we see with Morrigan, and the dialogue with the Dalish Warden suggests that some Dalish mages also know this school of magic).

As for demonology, Hawke doesn't summon demons in the gameplay, but he can use blood magic to enthrall a demonic spirit to do his bidding (like the enemies summoned to attack Hawke in the last round of Legacy).

Baher of Glory wrote...

Fine, but where is the logic? Would "Bloodmage Hawke" not make use of all the demons, which seem to be around all the time, invisible, until a weak mage surrenders his / her will to them? Is it beyond our Hawke to summon hordes of undead to fight something evil?

I don't think all blood mages would; everyone is different. Some would use demonology to summon demons, while other blood mages wouldn't.

Baher of Glory wrote...

Finally the "higher demons": They exploit already existing needs and grant some power in return. If not lead into such situations by others, our Hawke seems to be a person without needs. At least after Act II Hawke should be powerful and thus, promising enough for any higher demon to try a bargain. Nothing like that happens.

I suppose that happens in Feynriel's quest in Act II.

Baher of Glory wrote...

Final questions:
1) Did I miss some lore or is the absence of demons in Hawke's life just a question of game design?
2) Does every mage have kind of a "personal demon" which is always there or even "in" them, just waiting for a second of weakness to pop out?
3) Would you agree, when I say that a "Bloodmage Hawke" is by no means more powerful than any "normal" mage Hawke, besides the point of a larger pool to cast from?

1) I imagine it's an issue of apostate Hawke not making deals with demons.
2) Not a "personal" demon. Spirits and demons are more aware of mages because mages can enter the Fade awake. Part of the problem with Dragon Age II is that some of the possessions contradicted the lore; the mages made deals with demons and became abominations without actually entering the Fade. We know from the massacre of the Tevinter mages in Aeonar by Andrastian forces, and the Circle mages in Ostagar, that mages who enter the Fade aren't conscious in the real world.
3) We do see blood mage Hawke use blood magic to take down a rather dangerous enemy in Act III, but I think blood magic elements are clearly missing from the storyline: the possible use of demonology and mind control. Technically, blood magic Hawke should be more powerful, especially since templars can't nullify blood magic like they can ordinary magic.

[Uccio]

Face of Evil wrote...

Baher of Glory wrote...

Is it even possible for a demon to "jump" an unwilling mage?

Yes, in a moment of weakness.

I might be way off but I never understood how in DA2 a mage can be "jumped" while he is not sleeping or in fade. 

In DAO you had to go through harrowing and be in the fade just to make it possible for a demon to occupy the mage. And to do so the  mage had to accept it! 



DA2 turned it upside down. According to DA2 you wouldn't even need the harrowing since demons can come toyuo at anytime and take over at will.

[LobselVith8]

Ukki wrote...

I might be way off but I never understood how in DA2 a mage can be "jumped" while he is not sleeping or in fade. 

In DAO you had to go through harrowing and be in the fade just to make it possible for a demon to occupy the mage. And to do so the  mage had to accept it!

We also know from the codex entry about Aeonar (from the Magi Origin) that when a mage is in the Fade, he (or she) isn't conscious in the real world, since Andrastians killed the Tevinter mages in Aeonar because all but one of them were in the Fade. We also see this with the Circle mages in Ostagar.

Ukki wrote...

DA2 turned it upside down. According to DA2 you wouldn't even need the harrowing since demons can come toyuo at anytime and take over at will. 

The problem in Dragon Age II was you had mages making deals with demons without entering the Fade, which seems to contradict what we saw in Origins (especially since all the scenes of mages turning into abominations had those mages clearly conscious and aware of the real world, so they clearly couldn't be in the Fade at the same time). Then again, you also had abominations being treated like summoned creatures, which doesn't make any sense since abominations are possessed mages and not creatures you summon with magic. I don't think much effort was given into being true to the lore.

It has been noted that Gaider felt that players "sided with mages by default", which would explain these issues with the scenes not matching the lore.