1059 réponses à ce sujet

[DeinonSlayer]

Capeo wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Capeo wrote...

I always kill the Quarians. Mainly for being so boneheaded as to start a war during an ongoing Reaper invasion.

As far as the Morning War, the Quarians started it. They would have wiped the Geth out entirely. The Geth at least stopped when they felt the threat was over. They could have done to the Quarians what they planned to do to the Geth.

As far as the argument that the Geth were just synthetics? The overarching theme of ME is that sufficient advanced synthetics are alive.

. I'm sure that's a comfort to the innocents you are butchering.

You mean the innocent quarians that were killed by other quarians for harboring geth?  Quarians killed their own for getting in the way of their attempted genocide. 

He's obviously talking about the 17 million you boast about killing - most of whom neither wanted nor participated in the fight. They're huddled in their cubicles, holding their kids, praying to survive the next few minutes with no idea what's happening right outside their hull. Their only crime is not having anywhere else to go.

[KingZayd]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Capeo wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Capeo wrote...

I always kill the Quarians. Mainly for being so boneheaded as to start a war during an ongoing Reaper invasion.

As far as the Morning War, the Quarians started it. They would have wiped the Geth out entirely. The Geth at least stopped when they felt the threat was over. They could have done to the Quarians what they planned to do to the Geth.

As far as the argument that the Geth were just synthetics? The overarching theme of ME is that sufficient advanced synthetics are alive.

. I'm sure that's a comfort to the innocents you are butchering.

You mean the innocent quarians that were killed by other quarians for harboring geth?  Quarians killed their own for getting in the way of their attempted genocide. 

He's obviously talking about the 17 million you boast about killing - most of whom neither wanted nor participated in the fight. They're huddled in their cubicles, holding their kids, praying to survive the next few minutes with no idea what's happening right outside their hull. Their only crime is not having anywhere else to go.

Quite unfortunate that their leaders suck so much. In fact a lot of the Civilian fleet just wanted to leave.

[Ranger Jack Walker]

KingZayd wrote...

martial law is not the same as shutting down the Geth.

The Geth are NOW a collective entity that governs by consensus. Before they had no "government". Hence all the indivualistic nature at the start of the war.

PLease tell me you're trolling. Please do.

THe Geth were not individualistic back then. They weren't smart enough without being a consensus.

[Xellith]

Of course they have elsewhere to go. Its called revolution. If I had a wife and kids and I was on one of the civilian ships and the admirals were all "we are gonna go take back our world!". Id be all "bull****". You can damn well bet Im gonna revolt.

[o Ventus]

Cyrax86 wrote...

You made it sound like they did. We only saw 1 Quarian die from another Quarian, last time i checked 1 isn't a high number. 

If you are honestly suggesting that that quarians was the only one killed by the quarians, then you're an idiot. Statements given by Shepard and the data caches both suggest that a  fair number of quarians opposed martial law, and if the footage is anything to go by, the quarians military isn't very tolerant of those who harbored the "enemy".

[KingZayd]

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

martial law is not the same as shutting down the Geth.

The Geth are NOW a collective entity that governs by consensus. Before they had no "government". Hence all the indivualistic nature at the start of the war.

PLease tell me you're trolling. Please do.

THe Geth were not individualistic back then. They weren't smart enough without being a consensus.

No. The fact that the Geth were not behaving as a consensus, shows there was no consensus.
Some complied with the shut down, some did not. Some fought, others did not.

Their intelligence was improved when other units were nearby, but they did not have the Consensus.

Modifié par KingZayd, 04 décembre 2012 - 10:00 .

[DeinonSlayer]

Xellith wrote...

Of course they have elsewhere to go. Its called revolution. If I had a wife and kids and I was on one of the civilian ships and the admirals were all "we are gonna go take back our world!". Id be all "bull****". You can damn well bet Im gonna revolt.

Assuming you even succeed on your own home ship (starting with no weapons), where are you going to go? No Turian colony will be willing or able to accept an influx of millions of refugees with finicky diets. You can't stray from the liveships, and running off without military protection in the middle of the Reaper war is suicide. You can't divide the Fleet. Relieving themselves of this crippling strategic weakness is a huge reason why the Quarians went to war in the first place.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 04 décembre 2012 - 10:12 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

At the start of the Morning War the Geth did not have consensus. Somewhere early on that changed.

I would guess that far fewer than 17 million Quarians made it off Rannoch, and that the population grew to 17 million from that. What the Quarians did in the beginning was horrible, but what the Geth did to them afterward was unforgivable. Those who could not escape were exterminated like vermin.

I'm surprised they did not go into this in the game. Well actually I'm not. It would have been too gruesome. They would not have been able to paint the Geth as sympathetic as they did.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 04 décembre 2012 - 10:13 .

[KingZayd]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

I would guess that fewer than 17 million Quarians made it off Rannoch, and that the population grew to 17 million from that. What the Quarians did in the beginning was horrible, but what the Geth did to them afterward was unforgivable. Those who could not escape were exterminated like vermin.

What the Quarians tried to do was equally unforgivable.

[AresKeith]

You can't justify what the "Quarian Extremists" did back then which actually caused the conflict in the first place

[DeinonSlayer]

KingZayd wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

I would guess that fewer than 17 million Quarians made it off Rannoch, and that the population grew to 17 million from that. What the Quarians did in the beginning was horrible, but what the Geth did to them afterward was unforgivable. Those who could not escape were exterminated like vermin.

What the Quarians tried to do was equally unforgivable.

The Quarians who tried it are long dead. The Geth who did it are alive. And, as you affirmed earlier in the thread, an identical copy of a murderer is, himself, a murderer. Legion is a reformed killer. The Geth VI is not.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 04 décembre 2012 - 10:21 .

[Pyk]

GimmeDaGun wrote...

I'm not a materialist, so I can't relate to this idea

It's what you THINK that makes you who you are, not who you are tells you what to think.
It starts with thinking, not "wannabeing". You can't think something just because you think you are someone. I know what you meant, but this sentence suggests you boggle to consider options that could disturb your view. And that may lead to very biased understanding of the world.

Furthermore, faith in God, Creation or whatever doesn't exclude materialistic point of view, since you probably also believe God has created everything, at least he surely created matter instead of pure spirits.

Now, the question is not "do Geth have a soul" but "what is soul anyway"?
People tend to tell me that "soul is different from brain because soul is immortal".
Let's assume that you're an elf, you are immortal. Does it make humans inferior to elves? Immortality is poor argument then.

People tend to tell me that "God has created soul". Just as anything else, I guess, if you're a believer. Another silly argument.

People tend to tell me about free will. Well, in physical sense computers have as much free will as any human, it's just the range of options and reasoning that differs (for now).

Emotions? Self-awareness? They also depend on matter. These are brain functions.
What is so wrong in admitting that human brain, however complex, beautiful and mysterious it is, is also a piece of matter? And anything artificial mirroring human brain has the same functions?
Moreover, dismissing this proposition could one day lead to a true "justified" murder of advanced, thinking computers if we ever create any.

And that's how we come back to how this thread started. Don't easily dismiss materialism or you may one day do something frightfully wrong.

Edit: <inner voice: don't do it, just don't> Okay, I'm not making another "why call it soul" argument, don't answer to what's above. You've got your arguments and one post won't change anything, especially because possibility of misunderstanding is high on both sides. I leave it for the others to read if they find it interesting. Keep what gives you strenght

Modifié par Pyk, 04 décembre 2012 - 10:37 .

[Tigerman123]

It might well be that the Quarians destroyed their own planet and population in the aftermath of nuclear strikes designed to wipe out the Geth. We know that the latter were forced to clean up the planet in the wake of the ecological disaster precipitated by the war, the Quarians might not only have fled the geth but also their own uninhabitable ecosphere

It doesn't really make any sense that the Geth wouldn't have been able to destroy the quarians munitions factories and removed their ability to fight back

[KingZayd]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

I would guess that fewer than 17 million Quarians made it off Rannoch, and that the population grew to 17 million from that. What the Quarians did in the beginning was horrible, but what the Geth did to them afterward was unforgivable. Those who could not escape were exterminated like vermin.

What the Quarians tried to do was equally unforgivable.

The Quarians who tried it are long dead. The Geth who did it are alive. And, as you affirmed earlier in the thread, an identical copy of a murderer is, himself, a murderer.

And as I affirmed earlier the Geth are not identical copies of eachother. That would be redundant.
What makes you think Geth programs don't expire, or change? The vast majority of the Geth we have now are new, and also did not take part in the Morning War.

[KingZayd]

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
Not really. The issue is who is the guilty person, not which body was involved with the murder. The two have identical personalities, therefore they are the same person. Therefore both are guilty of the murders.

You and your twin have the same DNA. Having the same gesticulation patterns as your twin is not a crime.
Deliberately attempting to shoot a person is a crime.

DNA is not the same thing as personality. A clone who has the exact same memories and thought patterns is the same person. My hypothetical twin and I are the not by any means the same person.

How about your conjoined two who controls the left half as you control the right?
Body + mind = person. One is not whole without the other.

Person is linked to personality.
Body is just the container.

Conjoined twin case has the same answer as the non conjoined twin case.

[DeinonSlayer]

Tigerman123 wrote...

It might well be that the Quarians destroyed their own planet and population in the aftermath of nuclear strikes designed to wipe out the Geth. We know that the latter were forced to clean up the planet in the wake of the ecological disaster precipitated by the war, the Quarians might not only have fled the geth but also their own uninhabitable ecosphere

It doesn't really make any sense that the Geth wouldn't have been able to destroy the quarians munitions factories and removed their ability to fight back

Except Tuchanka was destroyed by nuclear weapons, and when you take Legion there he specifically says the Quarians didn't do that. The Quarians have an ecosymbiotic biology. They needed their homeworld to be habitable to survive there - a weakness the Geth didn't share.

[DeinonSlayer]

KingZayd wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

I would guess that fewer than 17 million Quarians made it off Rannoch, and that the population grew to 17 million from that. What the Quarians did in the beginning was horrible, but what the Geth did to them afterward was unforgivable. Those who could not escape were exterminated like vermin.

What the Quarians tried to do was equally unforgivable.

The Quarians who tried it are long dead. The Geth who did it are alive. And, as you affirmed earlier in the thread, an identical copy of a murderer is, himself, a murderer.

And as I affirmed earlier the Geth are not identical copies of eachother. That would be redundant.
What makes you think Geth programs don't expire, or change? The vast majority of the Geth we have now are new, and also did not take part in the Morning War.

Both Legion and Javik tell you they're immortal.

[KingZayd]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

I would guess that fewer than 17 million Quarians made it off Rannoch, and that the population grew to 17 million from that. What the Quarians did in the beginning was horrible, but what the Geth did to them afterward was unforgivable. Those who could not escape were exterminated like vermin.

What the Quarians tried to do was equally unforgivable.

The Quarians who tried it are long dead. The Geth who did it are alive. And, as you affirmed earlier in the thread, an identical copy of a murderer is, himself, a murderer.

And as I affirmed earlier the Geth are not identical copies of eachother. That would be redundant.
What makes you think Geth programs don't expire, or change? The vast majority of the Geth we have now are new, and also did not take part in the Morning War.

Both Legion and Javik tell you they're immortal.

Lol and what does Javik know of the Geth? What Legion says is relevant.
The point that still stands, that the vast majority of the Geth are new and did not take part in the Morning War..

Unless you're suggesting that  that the Geth have not been increasing their numbers over the centuries?

[Capeo]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

He's obviously talking about the 17 million you boast about killing - most of whom neither wanted nor participated in the fight. They're huddled in their cubicles, holding their kids, praying to survive the next few minutes with no idea what's happening right outside their hull. Their only crime is not having anywhere else to go.

As opposed to the millions of geth that are slaughtered if the quarians live?  The geth that didn't start this war nor the first war?

[FlyingSquirrel]

Pantanplan wrote...

SNascimento wrote...

"You cannot play god, than wash your hands of the things you have created. Sooner or later the day comes, when you can't hide from the things you have done anymore".

The Quarian genocide was their responsability. The Geth were only doing what was expect of them, ie, killing an enemy that was trying to wipe them out from existence. It's a valid conclusion given the circustance that the only response to that is wipe them out in return.

The Geth, if anything, were merciful.

They killed billions of people who had nothing to do with the creation of the geth. For the mistakes of a few thousand scientists, they tried to exterminate an entire race. Why do some consider the genophage a war crime and this not, when it's almost the same thing (worse, even)?

No, they are both war crimes, though the quarian attempt to shut down all the geth was also a war crime. The reasons I try to broker peace are:
 
1) The geth are a little different because the very act of becoming sentient seemed to have provoked this response. So from their perspective, they awoke to an immediate lethal attack for the "crime" of, essentially, being themselves, and they may not have fully understood what was going on since their intelligence and understanding increase with numbers and better networking.

2) Whatever they may have done 300 years ago, the non-heretic geth don't seem inclined to pick fights with other civilizations, and this latest conflict only seems to have started when the quarians destroyed their Dyson sphere. Daro'Xen still refuses to acknowledge them as living beings at all. So even if the geth killed 99.83% of all quarians 300 years ago, the quarian leadership are trying to kill 100% of all geth right now. Had the quarians not attacked, it seems entirely probable that this conflict would not be happening.

(Though I still wonder if all those deaths were part of the war itself or if some of them happened as a result of hardships faced by the refugees after they left Rannoch.)

[DeinonSlayer]

Capeo wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

He's obviously talking about the 17 million you boast about killing - most of whom neither wanted nor participated in the fight. They're huddled in their cubicles, holding their kids, praying to survive the next few minutes with no idea what's happening right outside their hull. Their only crime is not having anywhere else to go.

As opposed to the millions of geth that are slaughtered if the quarians live?  The geth that didn't start this war nor the first war?

You're stumbling, Capeo. You seemed so proud about killing the Quarians earlier.

Each individual Geth, pre-upgrade, has the intellect of a worker ant. It is only in tandem that they become a person. I view the Geth, as a single, collective gestalt entity, guilty of crimes for which death is a warranted punishment. I've outlined my justification for this. They were innocent in the beginning, and killing them then was wrong, but they are not innocent now, and haven't been for a very long time. That said, I've only killed them in playthroughs where the Geth VI forced me to choose a side.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 04 décembre 2012 - 10:43 .

[Trikormadenadon]

o Ventus wrote...

xAmilli0n wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

1. The quarians killed a very high number of quarians as well. It pisses me off when people just assume that the geth were the only other force.

2. Where in the hell did 99.83% come from?

Answering number 2.  There were billions before the war (Quarians), 17 million after the war.

Which is based on a population of...? Aside from "billions", there's never any indication of a general populace. Is it 10 billion? 100 billion? Any percentage thrown out is arbitrary a best.

The percentage is not the point. The OP was simply pointing out the comparison of 100% vs 17 million survivors. It could have been 99.83 or even 99.999983, It doesn't matter, what matters is what the number represents, not the exact number.

[m2iCodeJockey]

KingZayd wrote...

m2iCodeJockey wrote...
How about your conjoined two who controls the left half as you control the right?
Body + mind = person. One is not whole without the other.

Person is linked to personality.
Body is just the container.

Conjoined twin case has the same answer as the non conjoined twin case.

Now we have a frame of reference.
You are trying to apply the rule of a cybernetic being to an organic being.
Given a close enough match in hardware, a cybernetic's mind can be copied or transferred to a new platform and remain the same person.

That is not true for an organic individual who's decision process is affected by the platform which has no exact duplicate. If it did, twin, who had the same DNA, would also have the same fingerprint and brain lobe pattern (they are close but, do not match.)

Your physical past affects the decision you make in the present. It can be as simple as what you chose to eat (Twinkies?)
So, your duplicate will not choose the same path for simply have a difference in perspective of a few inches or miles.

[Trikormadenadon]

KingZayd wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

When did those babies try to kill the Geth?

When did the Geth try to kill those babies before the Morning War?

So because they never killed them at one point that justifies killing them later?

No. Again I ask, can you read? I clearly said there wasn't a justification for the killing of the babies. There also isn't a justification for the Quarians having tried to kill all those innocent Geth.
Like I said. The only differences are that the Quarians tried first, and that they failed.

Actually KingZayd it is you who can't read, or you can't follow a conversation, one or the other.

Our Last Scene is asking about the justification of killing Quarian babies. You respond by asking about the same for innocent Geth. Your response is irreleveant to the initial question. Add to this the fact that later in the war the geth are no longer innocent, but the babies remain innocent during the war yet you keep responding with the same claim about Geth starting off innocent....makes no sense, sorry.