1059 réponses à ce sujet

[KingZayd]

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

m2iCodeJockey wrote...
How about your conjoined two who controls the left half as you control the right?
Body + mind = person. One is not whole without the other.

Person is linked to personality.
Body is just the container.

Conjoined twin case has the same answer as the non conjoined twin case.

Now we have a frame of reference.
You are trying to apply the rule of a cybernetic being to an organic being.
Given a close enough match in hardware, a cybernetic's mind can be copied or transferred to a new platform and remain the same person.

That is not true for an organic individual who's decision process is affected by the platform which has no exact duplicate. If it did, twin, who had the same DNA, would also have the same fingerprint and brain lobe pattern (they are close but, do not match.)

Your physical past affects the decision you make in the present. It can be as simple as what you chose to eat (Twinkies?)
So, your duplicate will not choose the same path for simply have a difference in perspective of a few inches or miles.

Except the duplicate in the original example had an identical body too. Therefore the effects of the old "physical past" would still be there.

Also in the Mass Effect universe, the container DOES matter for AIs.

[KingZayd]

Trikormadenadon wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

When did those babies try to kill the Geth?

When did the Geth try to kill those babies before the Morning War?

So because they never killed them at one point that justifies killing them later?

No. Again I ask, can you read? I clearly said there wasn't a justification for the killing of the babies. There also isn't a justification for the Quarians having tried to kill all those innocent Geth.
Like I said. The only differences are that the Quarians tried first, and that they failed.

Actually KingZayd it is you who can't read, or you can't follow a conversation, one or the other.

Our Last Scene is asking about the justification of killing Quarian babies. You respond by asking about the same for innocent Geth. Your response is irreleveant to the initial question. Add to this the fact that later in the war the geth are no longer innocent, but the babies remain innocent during the war yet you keep responding with the same claim about Geth starting off innocent....makes no sense, sorry.

Oh I can read, and I can follow a conversation.I was offering up an equivalent question. The problem is the exact same.
Were the Quarians succesful, they would have killed all those innocent Geth, while they were still innocent. What the Quarians try to do is not any more acceptable just because they failed.

It makes perfect sense. I'm sorry if you can't understand it.

Modifié par KingZayd, 04 décembre 2012 - 10:57 .

[m2iCodeJockey]

KingZayd wrote...

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

m2iCodeJockey wrote...
How about your conjoined two who controls the left half as you control the right?
Body + mind = person. One is not whole without the other.

Person is linked to personality.
Body is just the container.

Conjoined twin case has the same answer as the non conjoined twin case.

Now we have a frame of reference.
You are trying to apply the rule of a cybernetic being to an organic being.
Given a close enough match in hardware, a cybernetic's mind can be copied or transferred to a new platform and remain the same person.

That is not true for an organic individual who's decision process is affected by the platform which has no exact duplicate. If it did, twin, who had the same DNA, would also have the same fingerprint and brain lobe pattern (they are close but, do not match.)

Your physical past affects the decision you make in the present. It can be as simple as what you chose to eat (Twinkies?)
So, your duplicate will not choose the same path for simply have a difference in perspective of a few inches or miles.

Except the duplicate in the original example had an identical body too. Therefore the effects of the old "physical past" would still be there.

Also in the Mass Effect universe, the container DOES matter for AIs.

Having an exact copy of the body still wouldn't matter.
One of those two people did not yet exist at the time of the crime.
That same person can still make the decision to not commit future crimes.

[KingZayd]

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

m2iCodeJockey wrote...
How about your conjoined two who controls the left half as you control the right?
Body + mind = person. One is not whole without the other.

Person is linked to personality.
Body is just the container.

Conjoined twin case has the same answer as the non conjoined twin case.

Now we have a frame of reference.
You are trying to apply the rule of a cybernetic being to an organic being.
Given a close enough match in hardware, a cybernetic's mind can be copied or transferred to a new platform and remain the same person.

That is not true for an organic individual who's decision process is affected by the platform which has no exact duplicate. If it did, twin, who had the same DNA, would also have the same fingerprint and brain lobe pattern (they are close but, do not match.)

Your physical past affects the decision you make in the present. It can be as simple as what you chose to eat (Twinkies?)
So, your duplicate will not choose the same path for simply have a difference in perspective of a few inches or miles.

Except the duplicate in the original example had an identical body too. Therefore the effects of the old "physical past" would still be there.

Also in the Mass Effect universe, the container DOES matter for AIs.

Having an exact copy of the body still wouldn't matter.
One of those two people did not yet exist at the time of the crime.
That same person can still make the decision to not commit future crimes.

That's the same as the person who did commit the crimes.
They are the same person. They both are the person that committed the crime.

[m2iCodeJockey]

KingZayd wrote...
That's the same as the person who did commit the crimes.
They are the same person. They both are the person that committed the crime.

So, you are saying person 2 was present when the crime was committed?

[KingZayd]

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
That's the same as the person who did commit the crimes.
They are the same person. They both are the person that committed the crime.

So, you are saying person 2 was present when the crime was committed?

Yes. Because Person 2 was person 1.

[m2iCodeJockey]

KingZayd wrote...

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
That's the same as the person who did commit the crimes.
They are the same person. They both are the person that committed the crime.

So, you are saying person 2 was present when the crime was committed?

Yes. Because Person 2 was person 1.

So, person 1 is occupying two regions of space at one time?

Modifié par m2iCodeJockey, 04 décembre 2012 - 11:05 .

[KiwiQuiche]

Oh please, the Quarians started it, got their asses handed to them, then b!tched and moaned about it for a few centuries of something that was a result of their stupidity.

The Geth didn't know better; they were children in their thinking; they were retaliating to a threat to their whole species and they did let the Quarians flee rather than exterminating them. To them, they weren't 'culling' the Quarians, they were fighting back. They didn't understand the whole 'genocide' thing.

Yeah, no sympathy for the Quarians from me.

[KingZayd]

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
That's the same as the person who did commit the crimes.
They are the same person. They both are the person that committed the crime.

So, you are saying person 2 was present when the crime was committed?

Yes. Because Person 2 was person 1.

So, person 1 is occupying to regions of space at one time?

At the very moment which a second person 1 appears (assuming it's instantaneous)
Then person 1a starts to develop in different ways to person 1b, due to the fact that they begin to have different experiences. Both were person 1.

[Trikormadenadon]

KingZayd wrote...

Trikormadenadon wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

When did those babies try to kill the Geth?

When did the Geth try to kill those babies before the Morning War?

So because they never killed them at one point that justifies killing them later?

No. Again I ask, can you read? I clearly said there wasn't a justification for the killing of the babies. There also isn't a justification for the Quarians having tried to kill all those innocent Geth.
Like I said. The only differences are that the Quarians tried first, and that they failed.

Actually KingZayd it is you who can't read, or you can't follow a conversation, one or the other.

Our Last Scene is asking about the justification of killing Quarian babies. You respond by asking about the same for innocent Geth. Your response is irreleveant to the initial question. Add to this the fact that later in the war the geth are no longer innocent, but the babies remain innocent during the war yet you keep responding with the same claim about Geth starting off innocent....makes no sense, sorry.

Oh I can read, and I can follow a conversation.I was offering up an equivalent question. The problem is the exact same.
Were the Quarians succesful, they would have killed all those innocent Geth, while they were still innocent. What the Quarians try to do is not any more acceptable just because they failed.

It makes perfect sense. I'm sorry if you can't understand it.

it makes sense in that respect however the initial premise is not relevant so that's where it makes no sense. In other words, there was no reason to respond to the question about babies with your question about innocent geth. The post about babies was not suggesting the Quarians were innocent. it was suggesting the babies were innocent. No quarian babies killed any geth, but those innocent geth eventually became no longer innocent and did kill quarian babies...

[m2iCodeJockey]

KingZayd wrote...

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
That's the same as the person who did commit the crimes.
They are the same person. They both are the person that committed the crime.

So, you are saying person 2 was present when the crime was committed?

Yes. Because Person 2 was person 1.

So, person 1 is occupying to regions of space at one time?

At the very moment which a second person 1 appears (assuming it's instantaneous)
Then person 1a starts to develop in different ways to person 1b, due to the fact that they begin to have different experiences. Both were person 1.

You've contradicted yourself: 1b does not have actual experience, just the belief that he has.
(aren't you glad someone is actually thinking about this BEFORE cybernetic beings exist?)

[Steelcan]

Capeo wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Capeo wrote...

I always kill the Quarians. Mainly for being so boneheaded as to start a war during an ongoing Reaper invasion.

As far as the Morning War, the Quarians started it. They would have wiped the Geth out entirely. The Geth at least stopped when they felt the threat was over. They could have done to the Quarians what they planned to do to the Geth.

As far as the argument that the Geth were just synthetics? The overarching theme of ME is that sufficient advanced synthetics are alive.

. I'm sure that's a comfort to the innocents you are butchering.

You mean the innocent quarians that were killed by other quarians for harboring geth?  Quarians killed their own for getting in the way of their attempted genocide. 

No. I mean the civilans you are murdering by destroying the Migrant Fleet.

[sw04ca]

KingZayd wrote...
And it wasn't billions. There is no evidence to suggest that billions of Quarians were civillians.

I don't think it would be an extraordinary claim that the majority of the quarian race wasn't in the military.  Indeed, if somebody were to say that the Quarian military comprised a double-digit percentage of their population before the geth genocide, THAT would be an extraordinary claim.  Even if they mobilized their population to an incredible degree during the Morning War, you still need to account for workers, farmers, children, the elderly, the crippled, the insane and various others that weren't under arms.

What I never got is why the geth didn't just leave.  They don't need Rannoch, and slaughtering the vast majority of the quarian species seems pretty inefficent, especially when you're in the mopping up phase, which would require travelling all over every quarian colony world and shooting any quarian you see.

[m2iCodeJockey]

Steelcan wrote...
No. I mean the civilans you are murdering by destroying the Migrant Fleet.

You are not murdering them. You are not saving them at the expense of other intelligent beings.

[Aaleel]

Well how many of the Geth would the Quarians have killed if the Geth hadn't fought back. 100% plus any Quarians who tried to help the Geth. If the Geth adopted a "If we don't wipe them out, they won't stop until they wipe us out' attitude in the beginning, I can't really blame them considering what was going on.

[Steelcan]

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
No. I mean the civilans you are murdering by destroying the Migrant Fleet.

You are not murdering them. You are not saving them at the expense of other intelligent beings.

You are knowingly letting them be killed.  Shepard is an acomplice to genocide if you kill the quarians.

And before you say so, no it is not genocide to kill the geth.  they would hve to be alive for that to happen.  They don't become alive until after the code is uploaded, which doesn't happen if they are blown out of the sky, as they should be.


I guess I'm back in this thread now

[cyrexwingblade]

Finn the Jakey wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Oh please, the Quarians started it, got their asses handed to them, then b!tched and moaned about it for a few centuries of something that was a result of their stupidity.

The Geth didn't know better; they were children in their thinking; they were retaliating to a threat to their whole species and they did let the Quarians flee rather than exterminating them. To them, they weren't 'culling' the Quarians, they were fighting back. They didn't understand the whole 'genocide' thing.

Yeah, no sympathy for the Quarians from me.

This comment is so idiotic I can't even bring myself to try and argue against it.

That's hardly constructive. The concept of the Geth as moral children reacting to extreme duress is actually quite accurate. Not an excuse, but it does offer a solid explanation for the combination of their actions. If the goal is 'stop them killing me', and you can completely wipe out an army... by nerve-gassing a city, you're not processing honorable combat or civilians at that point. Yes, it was too severe, but so was the Quarrian action against them.

The truth is both, not neither. You can favor whoever you want, but don't deny bias for it.

[TurianWarlord]

guys, i think we need to get some perspective on this whole issue, the blame is not entirely on the quarians of course, but you cant put it on the geth.
You have to remember that the Morning war started when the Geth gained an understanding of the self, and began to develop self awareness. Before this they were built as essentially mechanical slaves, however if you can understand from the geth's perspective that they were essentially waking up to slavery, from any race this would have caused a defensive 'lashing out'. Now this doesnt justify the whole sale slaughter of the quarians completely.
However they were still a young race, yes they were robots who gained intelligence in numbers, but they still didnt have the experience and rationality to stop killing the quarians and a respectable point. A child doesnt know when to stop, it just wants the problem solved. I think this reasoning also allows me to understand why they allied with the reapers, in some way they were just looking for direction, and when godlike 'sentient machines' (like them) come and offer ascension, im not suprised they took the offer.

also sorry for boring text wall

[Steelcan]

Your point is refuted by the fact that the geth did know when to stop. After the had exterminated 99.% of the population, within one year.

[Kel Riever]

You know what would take care of this conundrum for me?

MEHEM DLC for xBox please.

Thank you.

[TurianWarlord]

Steelcan wrote...

Your point is refuted by the fact that the geth did know when to stop. After the had exterminated 99.% of the population, within one year.

How did they know, they had only achieved sentience a few months, maybe a year or two before, also the reason the quarians survived was because they escaped in the migrant fleet
Also if im wrong just tell me, its been a while since ive trawled throught the lore...

[Steelcan]

TurianWarlord wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Your point is refuted by the fact that the geth did know when to stop. After the had exterminated 99.% of the population, within one year.

How did they know, they had only achieved sentience a few months, maybe a year or two before, also the reason the quarians survived was because they escaped in the migrant fleet
Also if im wrong just tell me, its been a while since ive trawled throught the lore...

There's also the fact that until ME3 the true geth hated the Reapers.   But then came the retcons.....

[m2iCodeJockey]

Steelcan wrote...

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
No. I mean the civilans you are murdering by destroying the Migrant Fleet.

You are not murdering them. You are not saving them at the expense of other intelligent beings.

You are knowingly letting them be killed. Shepard is an acomplice to genocide if you kill the quarians.

And before you say so, no it is not genocide to kill the geth. they would hve to be alive for that to happen. They don't become alive until after the code is uploaded, which doesn't happen if they are blown out of the sky, as they should be.

FemShep: "Hey, I know you are allergic to bee stings so, don't reach in that box. There are bees in there. You also made a promise to the neighborhood not to disturb that hive so the bees would stay in the box."
Xen: "I DO love honey so.... OW!!! I GOT STUNG!!! SHEPARD HELP!!! THERE'S A BEAR, TOO!!!"
FemShep: "I did come here loaded for bear but, I told you not to f*ck with the bees the last time I was here. If you leave the hive alone, the bees won't bother you. You have money. Go buy honey."
Han'Gerrel: *shows up with a stick and pokes the hive...*
FemShep: *gut-punches garrel* "Look, I killed my bear and I'm f*cking leaving. If I had FIRED on Han'Garrel's non-knowing-when-to-retreat ass, I'd have only done a service to the Quarian people."