1059 réponses à ce sujet

[CrimsonZephyr]

KingZayd wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

garrusfan1 wrote...

Uh the quarians also killed other quarians remember. The quarians who didn't want the war were either put in prison or killed remember according to the geth consensus mission. The geth could have easily wiped out the quarians but they didn't so while it wasn't exactly ethical they weren't genocidal freaks. In modern warfare (not the game) civilian casualties are almost innevitable

And no modern war has ever resulted in a 99+% casualty rate. That goes beyond mindless collateral damage. The geth specifically targeted Quarian civilians, slaughtered them, occupied Rannoch, shot down any ship that approached them, irrespective of intent, and then were surprised that the retreating Quarians would want their home back and would be skeptical of the assertion that the machine race that turned them into a wandering remnant would simply let them come back.

I say scrap every geth.

Not necessarily. If they used chemical weapons on the entire planet, then they are not specifically targeting civillians for example.

Besides, ALL Geth were civillians before the Quarians tried to kill them.

You're telling me there were no combat programs?

[DirtySHISN0]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

garrusfan1 wrote...

Uh the quarians also killed other quarians remember. The quarians who didn't want the war were either put in prison or killed remember according to the geth consensus mission. The geth could have easily wiped out the quarians but they didn't so while it wasn't exactly ethical they weren't genocidal freaks. In modern warfare (not the game) civilian casualties are almost innevitable

And no modern war has ever resulted in a 99+% casualty rate. That goes beyond mindless collateral damage. The geth specifically targeted Quarian civilians, slaughtered them, occupied Rannoch, shot down any ship that approached them, irrespective of intent, and then were surprised that the retreating Quarians would want their home back and would be skeptical of the assertion that the machine race that turned them into a wandering remnant would simply let them come back.

I say scrap every geth.

Not necessarily. If they used chemical weapons on the entire planet, then they are not specifically targeting civillians for example.

Besides, ALL Geth were civillians before the Quarians tried to kill them.

You're telling me there were no combat programs?

No because they were built to labour, not to fight.

Modifié par DirtySHISN0, 05 décembre 2012 - 02:10 .

[KingZayd]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

garrusfan1 wrote...

Uh the quarians also killed other quarians remember. The quarians who didn't want the war were either put in prison or killed remember according to the geth consensus mission. The geth could have easily wiped out the quarians but they didn't so while it wasn't exactly ethical they weren't genocidal freaks. In modern warfare (not the game) civilian casualties are almost innevitable

And no modern war has ever resulted in a 99+% casualty rate. That goes beyond mindless collateral damage. The geth specifically targeted Quarian civilians, slaughtered them, occupied Rannoch, shot down any ship that approached them, irrespective of intent, and then were surprised that the retreating Quarians would want their home back and would be skeptical of the assertion that the machine race that turned them into a wandering remnant would simply let them come back.

I say scrap every geth.

Not necessarily. If they used chemical weapons on the entire planet, then they are not specifically targeting civillians for example.

Besides, ALL Geth were civillians before the Quarians tried to kill them.

You're telling me there were no combat programs?

What wars did the Geth fight before the Morning War?

[CrimsonZephyr]

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

garrusfan1 wrote...

Uh the quarians also killed other quarians remember. The quarians who didn't want the war were either put in prison or killed remember according to the geth consensus mission. The geth could have easily wiped out the quarians but they didn't so while it wasn't exactly ethical they weren't genocidal freaks. In modern warfare (not the game) civilian casualties are almost innevitable

And no modern war has ever resulted in a 99+% casualty rate. That goes beyond mindless collateral damage. The geth specifically targeted Quarian civilians, slaughtered them, occupied Rannoch, shot down any ship that approached them, irrespective of intent, and then were surprised that the retreating Quarians would want their home back and would be skeptical of the assertion that the machine race that turned them into a wandering remnant would simply let them come back.

I say scrap every geth.

So you are blaming a creature that is built upon Logic for doing the logical thing and empathising with creatures based on emotion for responding emotionally?

The logical thing would have been to not occupy Rannoch. The Quarians would always want the planet back, and the main incentive for Gerrel's attack was the planet. The reason the Quarians had to engage most of the geth to get it back was that they chose to build their dyson sphere there.

[DirtySHISN0]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

The logical thing would have been to not occupy Rannoch. 

At first there was no other option, but to stay put.
After they created their own industrial capacity though, why not move?
They were created there. It is as much their home as the quarians.

Modifié par DirtySHISN0, 05 décembre 2012 - 02:14 .

[m2iCodeJockey]

KingZayd wrote...

m2iCodeJockey wrote...
You've contradicted yourself: 1b does not have actual experience, just the belief that he has.
(aren't you glad someone is actually thinking about this BEFORE cybernetic beings exist?)

I did not. 1b starts off as the same person as 1a.

I'm glad you're thinking. Would feel better if you thought better though

It's not matter of thinking better. We have a difference of opinion.
You seem to think the 1a and 1b are the same person because their memories match and physicality is shaped the same.
I think they are separate people because they are not the same instance of matter and one is describable as having a copy of the mind of the first.

My opinion is: If 1a's breakfast can not be found in 1b's stomach, they are not the same person since 1b did not physically experience 1a's meal. Knowing that what a person consumes affects their mood, 1b will continue to behave slightly differently than 1a. The environments 1a experienced will also make a difference in how 1a is physically shaped on top of 1a's DNA.
Organic beings are hardware dependent.
Cybernetic being can be but, do not have to be.

Modifié par m2iCodeJockey, 05 décembre 2012 - 02:16 .

[thearbiter1337]

When i'm doing a non-import save in ME3

I always pick the Quarians

If you pick the Geth, you are killing every child,mother, and any other Quarian to let a Species be a person
Though killing the Geth is bad as all they want to do is be accepted by the Quarians again and every Geth can be a single individual but saving them requires killing innocents that didn't even want to fight the Geth in the first place due to a lowsy call by the Admiralty board but the Geth are not "alive" yet so it's best to save the Quarians

Kill the Quarians all you want but it seems pretty ****ing genocidal to kill millions of innocents just because of a foggy past

[Steelcan]

According to the Geth war asset description "Until recently all geth expected hostility from organics, so all platforms were armed accordingly"

[Steelcan]

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

The logical thing would have been to not occupy Rannoch. 

At first there was no other option, but to stay put.
After they created their own industrial capacity though, why not move?
They were created there. It is as much their home as the quarians.

Geth don't have sentimental attachments

[D4rkSektor]

thearbiter1337 wrote...

When i'm doing a non-import save in ME3

I always pick the Quarians

If you pick the Geth, you are killing every child,mother, and any other Quarian to let a Species be a person
Though killing the Geth is bad as all they want to do is be accepted by the Quarians again and every Geth can be a single individual but saving them requires killing innocents that didn't even want to fight the Geth in the first place due to a lowsy call by the Admiralty board but the Geth are not "alive" yet so it's best to save the Quarians

Kill the Quarians all you want but it seems pretty ****ing genocidal to kill millions of innocents just because of a foggy past

Why not peace then...?

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

We get the billions number from the average number looking at worlds like Palaven, Earth, Khar'shan, Thessia. ... Advanced civilizations. Leaders in the galactic community which the Quarians once were. We don't know how many of their own the Quarians killed during the Morning War, but I would not think it to be as many as people are imagining. What the Geth did was far worse.

I just wrote a story about this, and I'm polishing it up. Tali is walking through one of their cities. With Shepard and a group from the Normandy. It is like walking through a graveyard except there are no graves. People used to live there. The Quarians were a beautiful people. Men, women, children and babies. The number of people who made it off world to the migrant fleet are not exactly known. We know there are 17 million alive. It could have been 1 million. It could have been 5 million. That number doesn't matter. It is a statistic. Every Quarian alive today is descended from those.

It was like the history books coming to life. What they did to the Geth in the beginning was horrible. Maybe they would have stopped, but they never had a chance to stop. The Geth fought back in defense yes, but that defense turned changed to attack. The Geth were relentless. They never stopped. They kept killing and killing. They used chemical weapons. Perhaps nuclear. They do not require a habitable environment. Once the Quarians were on the defensive they still kept killing, and killing. Some of the Quarians made it off world and were chased to the relay.

But not everyone made it off world. There will many left behind, and those remaining were exterminated like vermin. The dead watch you as you move through the city. You can still hear the screams of men, women, and children dying in the wind.

[DirtySHISN0]

Steelcan wrote...

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

At first there was no other option, but to stay put.
After they created their own industrial capacity though, why not move?
They were created there. It is as much their home as the quarians.

Geth don't have sentimental attachments

Good point.

They also don't have any allies or anywhere outside the persius vale to go to without stepping on toes.

[KingZayd]

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

m2iCodeJockey wrote...
You've contradicted yourself: 1b does not have actual experience, just the belief that he has.
(aren't you glad someone is actually thinking about this BEFORE cybernetic beings exist?)

I did not. 1b starts off as the same person as 1a.

I'm glad you're thinking. Would feel better if you thought better though

It's not matter of thinking better. We have a difference of opinion.
You seem to think the 1a and 1b are the same person because their memories match and physicality is shaped the same.
I think they are separate people because they are not the same instance of matter and one is describable as having a copy of the mind of the first.

My opinion is: If 1a's breakfast can not be found in 1b's stomach, they are not the same person since 1b did not physically experience 1a's meal. Knowing that what a person consumes affects their mood, 1b will continue to behave slightly differently than 1a. The environments 1a experienced will also make a difference in how 1a is physically shaped on top of 1a's DNA.
Organic beings are hardware dependent.
Cybernetic being can be but, do not have to be.

They cease to be exactly the same person as they accumulate different experiences. 1a and 1b will begin to diverge from the 1 they both came from.


As for the thinking better thing, I wasn't being serious, just responding to your earlier comment

Question though: In the case of quantum teleportation, where a person's body would be disintegrated on one end, and then reassembled on the other, would you count that as death of 1 person, and the appearance or another?

[m2iCodeJockey]

thearbiter1337 wrote...
Kill the Quarians all you want but it seems pretty ****ing genocidal to kill millions of innocents just because of a foggy past

It hurt to watch the cute little engineer jump off the cliff.
Ethically speaking, I feel she was wrong for assisting her people lead children into a battle where they were outnumbered 100+ to 1 when they had the option to just find another planet.

[KingZayd]

Steelcan wrote...

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

The logical thing would have been to not occupy Rannoch. 

At first there was no other option, but to stay put.
After they created their own industrial capacity though, why not move?
They were created there. It is as much their home as the quarians.

Geth don't have sentimental attachments

Why does Legion carry that N7 thing around?

[Steelcan]

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

The logical thing would have been to not occupy Rannoch. 

At first there was no other option, but to stay put.
After they created their own industrial capacity though, why not move?
They were created there. It is as much their home as the quarians.

Geth don't have sentimental attachments

Why does Legion carry that N7 thing around?

"I doubt it was more than a convienent field repair"

[CrimsonZephyr]

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

The logical thing would have been to not occupy Rannoch. 

At first there was no other option, but to stay put.
After they created their own industrial capacity though, why not move?
They were created there. It is as much their home as the quarians.

If they really didn't want to stay on the Quarians' **** list, occupying the planet that they desperately wanted back wasn't going to be the way to get off it. You see, unlike the Quarians of 2186, the geth are still the same programs, meaning even Legion was likely responsible for mass murder on some level. The Quarians can't really be blamed for the actions of their ancestors because they had no hand in making these decisions. The geth, however, do not have generations -- only a hive mind of the same programs disseminating themselves into platforms on a temporary basis. The same geth that slaughtered billions of Quarians still exist.

[thearbiter1337]

D4rkSektor wrote...

thearbiter1337 wrote...

When i'm doing a non-import save in ME3

I always pick the Quarians

If you pick the Geth, you are killing every child,mother, and any other Quarian to let a Species be a person
Though killing the Geth is bad as all they want to do is be accepted by the Quarians again and every Geth can be a single individual but saving them requires killing innocents that didn't even want to fight the Geth in the first place due to a lowsy call by the Admiralty board but the Geth are not "alive" yet so it's best to save the Quarians

Kill the Quarians all you want but it seems pretty ****ing genocidal to kill millions of innocents just because of a foggy past

Why not peace then...?

I always pick peace in a imported save (As in Non-imported saves Peace can't happen)

As i luv me dem Flashlight heads

[m2iCodeJockey]

KingZayd wrote...
Question though: In the case of quantum teleportation, where a person's body would be disintegrated on one end, and then reassembled on the other, would you count that as death of 1 person, and the appearance or another?

If the reassembly is made of the matter from the origin, I'd say the person was temporarily unreadable but, cannot be immediately assumed as brain-dead.
I think a special provision is going to have to be made for matter that gets lost in the process.

Modifié par m2iCodeJockey, 05 décembre 2012 - 02:27 .

[SeptimusMagistos]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

We get the billions number from the average number looking at worlds like Palaven, Earth, Khar'shan, Thessia. ... Advanced civilizations. Leaders in the galactic community which the Quarians once were. We don't know how many of their own the Quarians killed during the Morning War, but I would not think it to be as many as people are imagining. What the Geth did was far worse.

I just wrote a story about this, and I'm polishing it up. Tali is walking through one of their cities. With Shepard and a group from the Normandy. It is like walking through a graveyard except there are no graves. People used to live there. The Quarians were a beautiful people. Men, women, children and babies. The number of people who made it off world to the migrant fleet are not exactly known. We know there are 17 million alive. It could have been 1 million. It could have been 5 million. That number doesn't matter. It is a statistic. Every Quarian alive today is descended from those.

It was like the history books coming to life. What they did to the Geth in the beginning was horrible. Maybe they would have stopped, but they never had a chance to stop. The Geth fought back in defense yes, but that defense turned changed to attack. The Geth were relentless. They never stopped. They kept killing and killing. They used chemical weapons. Perhaps nuclear. They do not require a habitable environment. Once the Quarians were on the defensive they still kept killing, and killing. Some of the Quarians made it off world and were chased to the relay.

But not everyone made it off world. There will many left behind, and those remaining were exterminated like vermin. The dead watch you as you move through the city. You can still hear the screams of men, women, and children dying in the wind.

Very nice. And I can write a fanfic in which every quarian casualty of the war died by slipping in the shower. I fail to see why that should change anything.

[KingZayd]

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
Question though: In the case of quantum teleportation, where a person's body would be disintegrated on one end, and then reassembled on the other, would you count that as death of 1 person, and the appearance or another?

If the reassembly is made of the matter from the origin, I'd say the person was temporarily unreadable but, cannot be immediately assumed as brain-dead.
I think a special provision is going to have to be made for matter that gets lost in the process.

The matter disappears from existance. And equivalent matter appears on the other end.

Modifié par KingZayd, 05 décembre 2012 - 02:29 .

[DirtySHISN0]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

If they really didn't want to stay on the Quarians' **** list, occupying the planet that they desperately wanted back wasn't going to be the way to get off it. You see, unlike the Quarians of 2186, the geth are still the same programs, meaning even Legion was likely responsible for mass murder on some level. The Quarians can't really be blamed for the actions of their ancestors because they had no hand in making these decisions. The geth, however, do not have generations -- only a hive mind of the same programs disseminating themselves into platforms on a temporary basis. The same geth that slaughtered billions of Quarians still exist.

Already responded to the occupation with others, scroll up.

Ok, thats a fair point. The current quarians can't be blamed for ancestors mistakes.
They can however be blamed for not learning from them.

Not really sure what to make about the Geth bit. What are you suggesting? they some how deserve death more because they havent died of old age?  If anything their account is more appealing because they have seen "quarians through the ages" so to speak. While the quarians scheme over old hatreds the Geth have first hand experience of it and continue to experience it with each generation of quarians that instigate hostilities.

Thats no foundation for peace.

Modifié par DirtySHISN0, 05 décembre 2012 - 02:33 .

[m2iCodeJockey]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
...You can still hear the screams of men, women, and children dying in the wind.

Very nice. And I can write a fanfic in which every quarian casualty of the war died by slipping in the shower. I fail to see why that should change anything.

XD!!!

Div'Golver: "Ops! OPS!!! AAACK!!!"
Mrs 'Golver: "Dearest? I heard a scream and- OH ANCESTO-!!" *slips on the soap* " AAARRRRGGGHHH!!! AAACK!!!"

[KingZayd]

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

The logical thing would have been to not occupy Rannoch. 

At first there was no other option, but to stay put.
After they created their own industrial capacity though, why not move?
They were created there. It is as much their home as the quarians.

Geth don't have sentimental attachments

Why does Legion carry that N7 thing around?

"I doubt it was more than a convienent field repair"

"Why didn't you fix it sooner? Or with something else?"
".... No data available"