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You can't justify a 99.83% death rate (The Morning War)


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#376
Steelcan

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KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Dogs are alive, but not sapient. They cannot tell right from wrong, they cannot make their own decisions about the nature of life. They are not the equal of a human.


Well clearly Quarians are also not sapient then. Since apparently they couldn't tell right from wrong. Lets kill the Quarians on Rannoch, then the Geth with the Crucible. Deal?

No, the quarians did what they thought was right.  The geth only acted out of reflex, and never bothered to stop.


No the Quarians did what they thought was logical. As did the Geth.

The Quarians that did what they thought was right, got killed by their own people.

The quarians thought they were acting out of necessity just like the geth did.  They thought that a geth revolution was inevitable so they tried to stop it, logical and the right thing to do.

And so you are saying that no quarian thught they were justified in trying to kill the geth?

#377
KingZayd

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The Night Mammoth wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Dogs are alive, but not sapient. They cannot tell right from wrong, they cannot make their own decisions about the nature of life. They are not the equal of a human.


Well clearly Quarians are also not sapient then. Since apparently they couldn't tell right from wrong. Lets kill the Quarians on Rannoch, then the Geth with the Crucible. Deal?


That's a strawman. 

How so?
it's just being consistent.


The Quarians making a mistake, or not being able to tell right from wrong in one instance, does not mean they aren't sapient. 

You know that. 

And that's why I'm using it to contradict his statement about the nature of sapience, and his implication that the Geth do not have it.

#378
KingZayd

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Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Dogs are alive, but not sapient. They cannot tell right from wrong, they cannot make their own decisions about the nature of life. They are not the equal of a human.


Well clearly Quarians are also not sapient then. Since apparently they couldn't tell right from wrong. Lets kill the Quarians on Rannoch, then the Geth with the Crucible. Deal?

No, the quarians did what they thought was right.  The geth only acted out of reflex, and never bothered to stop.


No the Quarians did what they thought was logical. As did the Geth.

The Quarians that did what they thought was right, got killed by their own people.

The quarians thought they were acting out of necessity just like the geth did.  They thought that a geth revolution was inevitable so they tried to stop it, logical and the right thing to do.

And so you are saying that no quarian thught they were justified in trying to kill the geth?


No evidence that they thought a revolution was inevitable. They certainly thought a revolution could happen.
Are you saying that the Geth didn't feel justified in killing the Quarians?

#379
Steelcan

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DirtySHISN0 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Dogs are alive, but not sapient. They cannot tell right from wrong, they cannot make their own decisions about the nature of life. They are not the equal of a human.


Good. Now, with reference to the same aspects, what differentiates humans from geth?

The ability to see things outside the collective.  When the geth reach concensus that is it.  There are always outliers with humans.  i like Samara's line "If there are three humans in a room, there will be six opinions".


I don't see a meaningful distinction. You have concluded because they reach a decision in a different manner that the opinion is less valid. 

Lacking perspective, is not exclusively a synthetic trait - enter the quarians.

  Theirmopinion is valid, but is there is no dissent.  There is no voice going against the mainstream.  The quarians most certainly had this

#380
Solmanian

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Pantanplan wrote...

I choose peace everytime in Rannoch, and I like Legion's character, but you can't deny the fact that the geth slaughtered billions of innocents. They are presented as innocent and looking for guidance, and that the quarians are 100% responsible, but really, only 17 million quarians were left after the Morning War. Nothing, and I repeat, nothing justifies such slaughter. To all of you who support the geth and Legion's version of their history: how are the geth innocent and lost children, while the quarians the aggressive instigators who deserve genocide?
Beforethe Reaper code upload the geth were indvidual VI-like programs who only gained intelligence by grouping together. The quarians have families, children, civilians while the geth have none of this. When peace isn't an option, why do some save the geth and let the quarians die?


Legion's version? You mean the story as told by an objective emotionless machine, when compared to technophoic, racist rambling of the quarians distorted after centuries justifying to their children why they were kicked of the homeworld? Legion has no reason, or interest in lying to us. He could've just said "one day we gained conciousness and decided to wipe out all organic", and still wouldn't made a difference since that how all organic see them anyway. He isn't a PR machine, trying to make nice. The geth don't want "peace" with the organics, they want to be left alone to "evolve" at their own rate without outside interference.

The fact is (and even the quarian don't deny it) that the geth began displaying sentience. And when they beat the quarians out of the homeworld it wasn't in a surprise blizkrieg, as many quarian imply. The quarians started a genocidal campaign, going house to house to "deactivate" them. The geth didn't even resist, until the quarian military started executing quarian sympathizers who were hiding geth. At this point the geth came to the conclusion that the only way to save both species is to kick the quarians out. Once they deemed that the quarians were no longer a threat, they ceased porsuit even though they could annihilate the quarians on that day.

There is no way making the geth guilty of anything other than fighting for their own survival. would you have had self destruct to save quarian lives, under the notion that a million synthetics aren't worth the life of a single organic?

You advocate the annihilation of the geth as preferable to the fall of the quarians, because quarian lives are more like yours and geth existence feels alian to you. The quarians were and are the constant instigators. Their only excuse for restarting the war that almost saw their extinction: "we thought we'd win"... The quarians shouldn't be rewarded for their genocidal tendencies.

Your words betray your bias. You call the slaughter of the quarian unjustifyable, but feel nothing for the attempted genocide commited against the geth. Someone being different than you isn't reason enough to wish his annihilation. And I'm talking from experience.

#381
Steelcan

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KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Dogs are alive, but not sapient. They cannot tell right from wrong, they cannot make their own decisions about the nature of life. They are not the equal of a human.


Well clearly Quarians are also not sapient then. Since apparently they couldn't tell right from wrong. Lets kill the Quarians on Rannoch, then the Geth with the Crucible. Deal?

No, the quarians did what they thought was right.  The geth only acted out of reflex, and never bothered to stop.


No the Quarians did what they thought was logical. As did the Geth.

The Quarians that did what they thought was right, got killed by their own people.

The quarians thought they were acting out of necessity just like the geth did.  They thought that a geth revolution was inevitable so they tried to stop it, logical and the right thing to do.

And so you are saying that no quarian thught they were justified in trying to kill the geth?


No evidence that they thought a revolution was inevitable. They certainly thought a revolution could happen.
Are you saying that the Geth didn't feel justified in killing the Quarians?

Tali says so in ME1.  You are arguing against canon.

#382
sr2josh

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DirtySHISN0 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Dogs are alive, but not sapient. They cannot tell right from wrong, they cannot make their own decisions about the nature of life. They are not the equal of a human.


Good. Now, with reference to the same aspects, what differentiates humans from geth?

The ability to see things outside the collective.  When the geth reach concensus that is it.  There are always outliers with humans.  i like Samara's line "If there are three humans in a room, there will be six opinions".


I don't see a meaningful distinction. You have concluded because they reach a decision in a different manner that the opinion is less valid. 

Lacking perspective, is not exclusively a synthetic trait - enter the quarians.



#383
sw04ca

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Amakiir wrote...
There is no proof that geth slaughtered the quarian population. It's far more likely quarian society was so dependent upon the geth that it couldn't cope without them.

That's not likely at all.  If the quarian species wasn't capable of maintaining a population above 8 figures without miraculous future tech, it sees unlikely that they would ever have ever have gotten to the point where they could invent the miracle tech.

Unless the quarians regressed to chipped flint axes, they'd be hard pressed to have a 99.8% die-back.

#384
KingZayd

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Steelcan wrote...

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Dogs are alive, but not sapient. They cannot tell right from wrong, they cannot make their own decisions about the nature of life. They are not the equal of a human.


Good. Now, with reference to the same aspects, what differentiates humans from geth?

The ability to see things outside the collective.  When the geth reach concensus that is it.  There are always outliers with humans.  i like Samara's line "If there are three humans in a room, there will be six opinions".


I don't see a meaningful distinction. You have concluded because they reach a decision in a different manner that the opinion is less valid. 

Lacking perspective, is not exclusively a synthetic trait - enter the quarians.

  Theirmopinion is valid, but is there is no dissent.  There is no voice going against the mainstream.  The quarians most certainly had this


They clearly do have disagreements. But they typically follow the results of their diplomatic process.
Clearly with the schism, they actually just split rather than the minority (whichever that was) going with the majority decision.

#385
KingZayd

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Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Dogs are alive, but not sapient. They cannot tell right from wrong, they cannot make their own decisions about the nature of life. They are not the equal of a human.


Well clearly Quarians are also not sapient then. Since apparently they couldn't tell right from wrong. Lets kill the Quarians on Rannoch, then the Geth with the Crucible. Deal?

No, the quarians did what they thought was right.  The geth only acted out of reflex, and never bothered to stop.


No the Quarians did what they thought was logical. As did the Geth.

The Quarians that did what they thought was right, got killed by their own people.

The quarians thought they were acting out of necessity just like the geth did.  They thought that a geth revolution was inevitable so they tried to stop it, logical and the right thing to do.

And so you are saying that no quarian thught they were justified in trying to kill the geth?


No evidence that they thought a revolution was inevitable. They certainly thought a revolution could happen.
Are you saying that the Geth didn't feel justified in killing the Quarians?

Tali says so in ME1.  You are arguing against canon.


How old is Tali again?

#386
Steelcan

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Solmanian wrote...

Pantanplan wrote...

I choose peace everytime in Rannoch, and I like Legion's character, but you can't deny the fact that the geth slaughtered billions of innocents. They are presented as innocent and looking for guidance, and that the quarians are 100% responsible, but really, only 17 million quarians were left after the Morning War. Nothing, and I repeat, nothing justifies such slaughter. To all of you who support the geth and Legion's version of their history: how are the geth innocent and lost children, while the quarians the aggressive instigators who deserve genocide?
Beforethe Reaper code upload the geth were indvidual VI-like programs who only gained intelligence by grouping together. The quarians have families, children, civilians while the geth have none of this. When peace isn't an option, why do some save the geth and let the quarians die?


Legion's version? You mean the story as told by an objective emotionless machine, when compared to technophoic, racist rambling of the quarians distorted after centuries justifying to their children why they were kicked of the homeworld? Legion has no reason, or interest in lying to us. He could've just said "one day we gained conciousness and decided to wipe out all organic", and still wouldn't made a difference since that how all organic see them anyway. He isn't a PR machine, trying to make nice. The geth don't want "peace" with the organics, they want to be left alone to "evolve" at their own rate without outside interference.

NO.  Legion has very clear bias.  He does not want the geth killed, he has an agenda.  He even lies to Shepard, twice.  He uses one mission as a pretext to complete his real objective, saving geth.

#387
Steelcan

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KingZayd wrote...

How old is Tali again?

Irrelevent.  The quarians as a whole agree with her, you get some outliers but most think they were right to try and destroy the geth

#388
DirtySHISN0

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Steelcan wrote...

Theirmopinion is valid, but is there is no dissent.  There is no voice going against the mainstream.  The quarians most certainly had this


Which is the difference of synthetic and organic life. Not the difference in being "truly" alive.

Synthetics know each others minds, organics do not.


This is why the Geth/Quarian decision is so meaningful. Its a trade between logical agreement and emotional response of which neither species sits on a reasonable scale.
The Quarians respond without thinking, the Geth respond as a result of cold thinking.

I hate to advocate synthesis, but you can see why perspective was an important theme for bioware to include.

#389
KingZayd

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Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

How old is Tali again?

Irrelevent.  The quarians as a whole agree with her, you get some outliers but most think they were right to try and destroy the geth


Pretty sure none of the Quarians we've met are over 100 years old. Since none of them were there, how much do they REALLY know about those events?

Modifié par KingZayd, 05 décembre 2012 - 03:12 .


#390
Steelcan

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KingZayd wrote...

They clearly do have disagreements. But they typically follow the results of their diplomatic process.
Clearly with the schism, they actually just split rather than the minority (whichever that was) going with the majority decision.

That was due to a programming error, not a conscious decision on their part.

#391
KingZayd

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Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

They clearly do have disagreements. But they typically follow the results of their diplomatic process.
Clearly with the schism, they actually just split rather than the minority (whichever that was) going with the majority decision.

That was due to a programming error, not a conscious decision on their part.


How was it a programming error?
They just reached different conclusions, and chose to split.

#392
Steelcan

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DirtySHISN0 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Theirmopinion is valid, but is there is no dissent.  There is no voice going against the mainstream.  The quarians most certainly had this


Which is the difference of synthetic and organic life. Not the difference in being "truly" alive.

Synthetics know each others minds, organics do not.


This is why the Geth/Quarian decision is so meaningful. Its a trade between logical agreement and emotional response of which neither species sits on a reasonable scale.
The Quarians respond without thinking, the Geth respond as a result of cold thinking.

I hate to advocate synthesis, but you can see why perspective was an important theme for bioware to include.

No the quarians did not react without thinking.  They acted out of self defence.  A preemptive strike.  This was spelled out in ME1

#393
Steelcan

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KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

They clearly do have disagreements. But they typically follow the results of their diplomatic process.
Clearly with the schism, they actually just split rather than the minority (whichever that was) going with the majority decision.

That was due to a programming error, not a conscious decision on their part.


How was it a programming error?
They just reached different conclusions, and chose to split.

because of an equation's result.

#394
DirtySHISN0

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Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

They clearly do have disagreements. But they typically follow the results of their diplomatic process.
Clearly with the schism, they actually just split rather than the minority (whichever that was) going with the majority decision.

That was due to a programming error, not a conscious decision on their part.


Not an error a decision, a thought pattern changes brain activity in organics just as it would change lines of code in a synthetic.

Modifié par DirtySHISN0, 05 décembre 2012 - 03:15 .


#395
Steelcan

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KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

How old is Tali again?

Irrelevent.  The quarians as a whole agree with her, you get some outliers but most think they were right to try and destroy the geth


Pretty sure none of the Quarians we've met are over 100 years old. Since none of them were there, how much do they REALLY know about those events?

Considering their fixation on their ancestors, probably a good deal.

#396
KingZayd

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Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

They clearly do have disagreements. But they typically follow the results of their diplomatic process.
Clearly with the schism, they actually just split rather than the minority (whichever that was) going with the majority decision.

That was due to a programming error, not a conscious decision on their part.


How was it a programming error?
They just reached different conclusions, and chose to split.

because of an equation's result.


Yes. They got different answers. Where's your evidence that they got the equation wrong?

#397
DirtySHISN0

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Steelcan wrote...

No the quarians did not react without thinking.  They acted out of self defence.  A preemptive strike.  This was spelled out in ME1


Out of fear.

#398
KingZayd

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Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

How old is Tali again?

Irrelevent.  The quarians as a whole agree with her, you get some outliers but most think they were right to try and destroy the geth


Pretty sure none of the Quarians we've met are over 100 years old. Since none of them were there, how much do they REALLY know about those events?

Considering their fixation on their ancestors, probably a good deal.


Considering their fixation on their ancestors, they probably took the interpretation that puts their ancestors in the best light.

#399
Steelcan

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DirtySHISN0 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

They clearly do have disagreements. But they typically follow the results of their diplomatic process.
Clearly with the schism, they actually just split rather than the minority (whichever that was) going with the majority decision.

That was due to a programming error, not a conscious decision on their part.


Not an error a decision, a thought pattern changes brain activity in organics just as it would changes lines of code in a synthetic.

So the heretics changed their core programming by thinking?  And I thought synthesis was pseudo-science

#400
Steelcan

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KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

They clearly do have disagreements. But they typically follow the results of their diplomatic process.
Clearly with the schism, they actually just split rather than the minority (whichever that was) going with the majority decision.

That was due to a programming error, not a conscious decision on their part.


How was it a programming error?
They just reached different conclusions, and chose to split.

because of an equation's result.


Yes. They got different answers. Where's your evidence that they got the equation wrong?

Do you know what we call different answers for the same equation? At least one of them is wrong.