1059 réponses à ce sujet

[SeptimusMagistos]

Steelcan wrote...

Synthetics do not evolve.

That's blatantly wrong.

[KingZayd]

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Crazy Quarians. They shot a bunch of robots with VIs, because they feared a rebellion.
Stupid Quarians. They lost to a bunch of VIs.

They underestimated them.

They underestimated the VIs? How?

They thought they were VI's.  The geth were networked VIs that formed an AI.

They can't have. Synthetics don't evolve.

So how did the Quarians lose to a bunch of VIs?

That wasn't evolution.  They were designed to do that.

They weren't designed to network to form an AI.

They were designed to network to make each VI more powerful.

[DirtySHISN0]

Steelcan wrote...

Because I have seen evidence from both sides and arrived at a conclusion.

A relevent quote to retire from the debate with. While there are endless reems of valid arguments to respond to and put forward i'll take this chance to back out.

Unfortunatley, we have both reached different conclusions. Of course it is all subjective conjecture. So as long as you can see why the other side of the argument is a plausible alternative to your own, I think we can agree to disagree.


I now have a craving to play the game.

Modifié par DirtySHISN0, 05 décembre 2012 - 03:33 .

[Steelcan]

And once again I'm done debating this. Neither of us is going to convince the other.

I'm out, again.

[Steelcan]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Synthetics do not evolve.

That's blatantly wrong.

How?  The only "evolution" we see synthetics go through is an upgrade.

[Steelcan]

KingZayd wrote...

They weren't designed to network to form an AI.

They were designed to network to make each VI more powerful.

And this powerful VI formed an artificial intelligence, the only difference is the number of geth networked at once.  It was unintended, but still happened.

Modifié par Steelcan, 05 décembre 2012 - 03:33 .

[KingZayd]

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Source?

Basic computer programming.  That would result ina  glitch that would be catastrophic for the machine.

How about a source for that being a difference in their core programming? And not say, different data being used in their equations?

Legion says so?  Did you miss that part?  They share data, and a mathematical error caused the heretics to form invalid conclusions.

"All viewpoints must be considered, even those that are incorrect"

That's typically what people who disagree on results say.

Also:
"The heretics' conclusion is valid for them. Our conclusion is valid for us. Neither is an error"

[KingZayd]

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

They weren't designed to network to form an AI.

They were designed to network to make each VI more powerful.

And this powerful VI formed an artificial intelligence, the only difference is the number of geth networked at once.  It was unintended, but still happened.

evolution.

Another case is that of the VI on Luna

Also, multiple powerful VIs* ---> multiple AIs

Modifié par KingZayd, 05 décembre 2012 - 03:35 .

[Solmanian]

There isn't a single detail in the 300 years of geth/quarian conflict that the responsibilty for doesn't rests squarly on the quarian shoulders. You ask how can we look at the quarians as instigators? BECAUSE THEY ARE INSTIGATORS! They started both wars! The geth only turned to the reapers because the quarian surprise, unprovoked attacks cost the lives of so many. The whole reason for both wars, is that the quarians consider the geth as pests to be tamed or exterminated! The quarians seem unable to percieve the geth as someone even remotely equal to them, and the OP simply support that racist claim...

And calling the geh/legion decietfull? I can't remember a single point in the trilogy where an A.I. or V.I. lied to me. Not the homicidal A.I. on the citadel. Not legion, who put the fate of a substantial part of his people in my hands in ME2. Not even the reapers, that from day 1 one told anybody who asked them that they intend to wipe out all technologicaly advanced organic civilizations. So what are you basing those accusations on?

[Steelcan]

KingZayd wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Source?

Basic computer programming.  That would result ina  glitch that would be catastrophic for the machine.

How about a source for that being a difference in their core programming? And not say, different data being used in their equations?

Legion says so?  Did you miss that part?  They share data, and a mathematical error caused the heretics to form invalid conclusions.

"All viewpoints must be considered, even those that are incorrect"

That's typically what people who disagree on results say.

Also:
"The heretics' conclusion is valid for them. Our conclusion is valid for us. Neither is an error"

He then says they are incorrect.

"All viewpoints must be considered, even those that are incorrect"

[Steelcan]

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

They weren't designed to network to form an AI.

They were designed to network to make each VI more powerful.

And this powerful VI formed an artificial intelligence, the only difference is the number of geth networked at once.  It was unintended, but still happened.

evolution.

Another case is that of the VI on Luna

an unforseen consequence, nothing more

[m2iCodeJockey]

Calinstel wrote...

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

Calinstel wrote...

Hate to say it but all these discussions are just so damned silly, I laughed.

Everyone needs to take their polarized 'cool' shades off and notice all the shades of grey in the geth/quarian conflict.
No side was right, and, no side was wrong.
A kneejerk reaction here, a too strong reaction there and soon all out war.
Peace is the only viable option for the two races to move forward. Wiping out one or the other when peace is available is, well, childish to me.

Pretty much why I would chose to let them be wiped out for not ceasing fire.
There was no justification for attack.

Shades still on I see. Oh well.

Ya' missed it.
During ME2, paragon Shepard listens to them discussing settling on a planet.
Rann says: "Let's just find a new planet."
Xen says: "Here's a perfect planet. Let's TAKE it."
Paragon Shep says "Don't do that (treaty violation.)"
At that point, Shep SHOULDN'T interfere because (violated treaty.) The ONLY reason to get involved is a Reaper and, as soon as that's done, the correct thing to do is leave and let the situation evolve unimpeded.

[KingZayd]

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Source?

Basic computer programming.  That would result ina  glitch that would be catastrophic for the machine.

How about a source for that being a difference in their core programming? And not say, different data being used in their equations?

Legion says so?  Did you miss that part?  They share data, and a mathematical error caused the heretics to form invalid conclusions.

"All viewpoints must be considered, even those that are incorrect"

That's typically what people who disagree on results say.

Also:
"The heretics' conclusion is valid for them. Our conclusion is valid for us. Neither is an error"

He then says they are incorrect.

"All viewpoints must be considered, even those that are incorrect"

He never says the Heretics' viewpoint is wrong.

Another quote:
"An analogy. Heretics say one is less than two. Geth say two is less than three."
The implication that neither is wrong. Just that both factions are focusing on different things in coming to their conclusions.

[KingZayd]

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

They weren't designed to network to form an AI.

They were designed to network to make each VI more powerful.

And this powerful VI formed an artificial intelligence, the only difference is the number of geth networked at once.  It was unintended, but still happened.

evolution.

Another case is that of the VI on Luna

an unforseen consequence, nothing more

Evolution. Nothing less.

[Steelcan]

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

He then says they are incorrect.

"All viewpoints must be considered, even those that are incorrect"

He never says the Heretics' viewpoint is wrong.

Another quote:
"An analogy. Heretics say one is less than two. Geth say two is less than three."
The implication that neither is wrong. Just that both factions are focusing on different things in coming to their conclusions.

Their belief is based entirely on the fact that an equation was changed, not a conscious decision on their part

[Steelcan]

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

They weren't designed to network to form an AI.

They were designed to network to make each VI more powerful.

And this powerful VI formed an artificial intelligence, the only difference is the number of geth networked at once.  It was unintended, but still happened.

evolution.

Another case is that of the VI on Luna

an unforseen consequence, nothing more

Evolution. Nothing less.

Evolution is a change in a species over time by the process of natural selection.  That does not apply to the geth, thus they did not evolve.

[KingZayd]

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

He then says they are incorrect.

"All viewpoints must be considered, even those that are incorrect"

He never says the Heretics' viewpoint is wrong.

Another quote:
"An analogy. Heretics say one is less than two. Geth say two is less than three."
The implication that neither is wrong. Just that both factions are focusing on different things in coming to their conclusions.

Their belief is based entirely on the fact that an equation was changed, not a conscious decision on their part

All our conscious decisions are based on a bunch of subconscious factors that we do not control. It is the same with the "true" Geth and the Heretics.

The only difference is that they can make conscious decisions to change those subconscious factors if they desire,

[KingZayd]

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

They weren't designed to network to form an AI.

They were designed to network to make each VI more powerful.

And this powerful VI formed an artificial intelligence, the only difference is the number of geth networked at once.  It was unintended, but still happened.

evolution.

Another case is that of the VI on Luna

an unforseen consequence, nothing more

Evolution. Nothing less.

Evolution is a change in a species over time by the process of natural selection.  That does not apply to the geth, thus they did not evolve.

Nice try.

Evolution has more than 1 definition:

• The process by which different kinds of living organisms are thought to have developed and diversified from earlier forms during the...
• The gradual development of something, esp. from a simple to a more complex form.

[Solmanian]

Steelcan wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Synthetics do not evolve.

That's blatantly wrong.

How?  The only "evolution" we see synthetics go through is an upgrade.

That because you think of evolution as a physical concept. The A.I.is the concious. The geth drones are just vessels , that contain hundreds of conciousnesses (legion, being more advanced had over a thousand). The whole concept of the A.I. singularity is that an unshackled A.I. will reach a point where it will eventualy more inteligent tha a human.

Prehistoric man began eating meat so it well have the protein required for a bigger brain. Geth programs use "geth prime" platforms that can support more geth programs and have faster processing than the geth "drone". How are this things different?

Once you stop thinking of the geth as the flashlight for a head android in front of you, and start thinking of the conciousness that reside within, you'll understand the geth better.

[Steelcan]

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

He then says they are incorrect.

"All viewpoints must be considered, even those that are incorrect"

He never says the Heretics' viewpoint is wrong.

Another quote:
"An analogy. Heretics say one is less than two. Geth say two is less than three."
The implication that neither is wrong. Just that both factions are focusing on different things in coming to their conclusions.

Their belief is based entirely on the fact that an equation was changed, not a conscious decision on their part

All our conscious decisions are based on a bunch of subconscious factors that we do not control. It is the same with the "true" Geth and the Heretics.

The only difference is that they can make conscious decisions to change those subconscious factors if they desire,

Our decisions are not based on preset mathematics, the geth are.

[Steelcan]

KingZayd wrote...

Nice try.

Evolution has more than 1 definition:

• The process by which different kinds of living organisms are thought to have developed and diversified from earlier forms during the...
• The gradual development of something, esp. from a simple to a more complex form.

If we are talking about 'living' organisms than we use the concept of biological evolution.

[Steelcan]

Solmanian wrote...

That because you think of evolution as a physical concept. The A.I.is the concious. The geth drones are just vessels , that contain hundreds of conciousnesses (legion, being more advanced had over a thousand). The whole concept of the A.I. singularity is that an unshackled A.I. will reach a point where it will eventualy more inteligent tha a human.

Prehistoric man began eating meat so it well have the protein required for a bigger brain. Geth programs use "geth prime" platforms that can support more geth programs and have faster processing than the geth "drone". How are this things different?

Once you stop thinking of the geth as the flashlight for a head android in front of you, and start thinking of the conciousness that reside within, you'll understand the geth better.

So what happens to the consciousness when the reaper code is uploaded?

[KingZayd]

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Nice try.

Evolution has more than 1 definition:

• The process by which different kinds of living organisms are thought to have developed and diversified from earlier forms during the...
• The gradual development of something, esp. from a simple to a more complex form.

If we are talking about 'living' organisms than we use the concept of biological evolution.

[*]Only if we're talking about the biological definition of life, and not the one used in the Mass Effect universe. Even if we choose to call it something other than life, there is still no reason why it is less valid than what we call life.

Modifié par KingZayd, 05 décembre 2012 - 03:49 .