1059 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Nice try.

Evolution has more than 1 definition:

• The process by which different kinds of living organisms are thought to have developed and diversified from earlier forms during the...
  
• The gradual development of something, esp. from a simple to a more complex form.

If we are talking about 'living' organisms than we use the concept of biological evolution.

[*]Only if we're talking about the biological definition of life, and not the one used in the Mass Effect universe. Even if we choose to call it something other than life, there is still no reason why it is less valid than what we call life.

  If it does not evolve it is not alive.  The geth do not evolve, they can change themselves, but that is not evoluton that is an upgrade.  Evolution is out of the organism's hands.

[KingZayd]

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

He then says they are incorrect.

"All viewpoints must be considered, even those that are incorrect"

He never says the Heretics' viewpoint is wrong.

Another quote:
"An analogy. Heretics say one is less than two. Geth say two is less than three."
The implication that neither is wrong. Just that both factions are focusing on different things in coming to their conclusions.

Their belief is based entirely on the fact that an equation was changed, not a conscious decision on their part

All our conscious decisions are based on a bunch of subconscious factors that we do not control. It is the same with the "true" Geth and the Heretics.

The only difference is that they can make conscious decisions to change those subconscious factors if they desire,

Our decisions are not based on preset mathematics, the geth are.

The mathematics they use is flexible. By which I mean they'll be using different equations. Also different experiences will lead different Geth do use different data and even different equations.

That's the whole point of an AI. They can learn, and they can adapt. Without this, they would be VIs.

Modifié par KingZayd, 05 décembre 2012 - 03:52 .

[Steelcan]

KingZayd wrote...

All our conscious decisions are based on a bunch of subconscious factors that we do not control. It is the same with the "true" Geth and the Heretics.

The only difference is that they can make n they'll be using different equations. Also different experiences will lead different Geth do use different data and even different equations.

Except all experience is shared amoungst the geth.  It would either change every geth at the same time or it woudn't.  one is an upgrade to the geth, the other is  happening.

[KingZayd]

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Nice try.

Evolution has more than 1 definition:

• The process by which different kinds of living organisms are thought to have developed and diversified from earlier forms during the...
  
• The gradual development of something, esp. from a simple to a more complex form.

If we are talking about 'living' organisms than we use the concept of biological evolution.

[*]Only if we're talking about the biological definition of life, and not the one used in the Mass Effect universe. Even if we choose to call it something other than life, there is still no reason why it is less valid than what we call life.

  If it does not evolve it is not alive.  The geth do not evolve, they can change themselves, but that is not evoluton that is an upgrade.  Evolution is out of the organism's hands.

[*]Wrong. Nowhere in the definition of evolution does it say that the evolution in question has to be natural. They Geth evolve, and are alive.

[KingZayd]

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

All our conscious decisions are based on a bunch of subconscious factors that we do not control. It is the same with the "true" Geth and the Heretics.

The only difference is that they can make n they'll be using different equations. Also different experiences will lead different Geth do use different data and even different equations.

Except all experience is shared amoungst the geth.  It would either change every geth at the same time or it woudn't.  one is an upgrade to the geth, the other is  happening.

If all Geth were  identical, there would be no need for the Consensus. The results would be unanimous anyway. The games tell us this clearly is not true.

Modifié par KingZayd, 05 décembre 2012 - 03:54 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Solmanian wrote...

ZombieGambit wrote...

Where are you getting that number 17 million? Isn't that the current number of quarians? I think originally there were much fewer left since they've slowly expanded and purchased more ships while still keeping their 300 year old ones, according to Tali.

Jeez, the geth almost wiped out an entire species and obviously killed non-combatants too. That's pretty ****ed up now that I think about it.

I'm pretty sure that the morning war involved nukes, and I'm not sure who started throwing them, but the quarians were definetly throwing their own, on all the planets; Tali says so in ME1. Yes, WMD's are indiscriminate, that why you avoid using them unless you're realy desperate, which the quarians and probably the geth were. It's not even clear how habitable the quarians worlds were by the end of that nuclear war. And 17 million is post war not present, though the quarians severely limit birth rate due to their unwillingness to colonize a planet and giving up on the homeworld.

They tried. They were booted off by the Council.

[Steelcan]

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Nice try.

Evolution has more than 1 definition:

• The process by which different kinds of living organisms are thought to have developed and diversified from earlier forms during the...
  
  
• The gradual development of something, esp. from a simple to a more complex form.

If we are talking about 'living' organisms than we use the concept of biological evolution.

[*]Only if we're talking about the biological definition of life, and not the one used in the Mass Effect universe. Even if we choose to call it something other than life, there is still no reason why it is less valid than what we call life.

  If it does not evolve it is not alive.  The geth do not evolve, they can change themselves, but that is not evoluton that is an upgrade.  Evolution is out of the organism's hands.

[*]Wrong. Nowhere in the definition of evolution does it say that the evolution in question has to be natural. They Geth evolve, and are alive.

Evolution is caused by natural selection.  The geth are immune to natural selection so they do not evolve.

[Steelcan]

Ok, I'm seriously done now. Banging my head against a wall would be more productive than this.

[KingZayd]

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Nice try.

Evolution has more than 1 definition:

• The process by which different kinds of living organisms are thought to have developed and diversified from earlier forms during the...
  
  
• The gradual development of something, esp. from a simple to a more complex form.

If we are talking about 'living' organisms than we use the concept of biological evolution.

[*]Only if we're talking about the biological definition of life, and not the one used in the Mass Effect universe. Even if we choose to call it something other than life, there is still no reason why it is less valid than what we call life.

  If it does not evolve it is not alive.  The geth do not evolve, they can change themselves, but that is not evoluton that is an upgrade.  Evolution is out of the organism's hands.

[*]Wrong. Nowhere in the definition of evolution does it say that the evolution in question has to be natural. They Geth evolve, and are alive.

Evolution is caused by natural selection.  The geth are immune to natural selection so they do not evolve.

[*]Evolution doesn't have to take place through natural selection. It just naturally does.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Solmanian wrote...

There isn't a single detail in the 300 years of geth/quarian conflict that the responsibilty for doesn't rests squarly on the quarian shoulders. You ask how can we look at the quarians as instigators? BECAUSE THEY ARE INSTIGATORS! They started both wars! The geth only turned to the reapers because the quarian surprise, unprovoked attacks cost the lives of so many. The whole reason for both wars, is that the quarians consider the geth as pests to be tamed or exterminated! The quarians seem unable to percieve the geth as someone even remotely equal to them, and the OP simply support that racist claim...

And calling the geh/legion decietfull? I can't remember a single point in the trilogy where an A.I. or V.I. lied to me. Not the homicidal A.I. on the citadel. Not legion, who put the fate of a substantial part of his people in my hands in ME2. Not even the reapers, that from day 1 one told anybody who asked them that they intend to wipe out all technologicaly advanced organic civilizations. So what are you basing those accusations on?

Legion agreed that uploading the reaper code was a bad idea. It says that it would never (I can't exactly remember and I don't feel like looking it up on youtube and it's been so long since I played the game) ... but he lied about that too, and he lied again and again. Legion is not honest. EDI has deceived.

You guys just don't pick the correct dialogue choices that call them on their BS. You always pick the paragon choices. I don't I mix it up.

If I don't need the war assets. I'm going with the Quarians.

[csmokey]

dam you sheppard how could you kill those reapers, they were just doing there job

[csmokey]

dam you sheppard how could you kill those reapers, they were just doing there job

[m2iCodeJockey]

Calinstel wrote...
(sorry, corrected this) Ah, but (I think) you are still wrong. Had it been just as it was before, then okay, I can buy that but, it was not the same. Legion would have uploaded his reaper code to the consensus without anyone knowing and the quarians would have been wiped out when, before the Reaper intervened, they were winning.
Shepard needed an army and a fleet. Getting both served Shepards needs, not the needs of any one race. Had Shepard just walked away, he would be giving up on Earth. (Though, for the life of me, I don't know why my Shepard gave a rats arse about that place.)

I understand your opinion. I don't expect you to agree but I can restate my own, pragmatically, like this:
-At the point we see the Quarians didn't know not to attack while outnumbered 100+ to 1, they are NOT worth seeking an alliance with.
-At the point we see the Geth display complicity with the Reapers, they are NOT worth the risk of seeking an alliance.
-At the point where Earth's defense fleet is decimated, it makes no sense to try to retake Earth.

The only reason to do any of the three is, we are railroaded into doing so.

[Shadow Quickpaw]

Not open to 99. something percent whiped out? I'd guess you'd be less open to 100 percent whiped out. THAT'S what the Geth were having to deal with. The difference is motivation. The Quarians began the war with the absolute intent to deactivate/destroy/kill 100 percent of all Geth everywhere. The only thing the Geth ever wanted was to live. They defended themselves, programed or not. What would you have done in the Geth's place?

"It was the day I understood. War is atrocity commited in the name of survival."

For the Geth to survive they had NO CHOICE but to do just what they did: drive the Quarians away so the killing would stop. If the Geth had wanted to exterminate the Quarians; THEY WOULD HAVE DONE IT. But they didn't.

The reason I had so little sympathy for the Quarians is that they were too proud to admit their true mistakes. And before you say it wasn't the fault of the current Quarians: they refused to learn from their mistakes and so KEPT MAKING THEM. I kept asking myself: why in heaven's name is Gerral an admiral? Consider how nearly the heratics whiped out the combined Citedel fleets, and that is only 5% of the total Geth population. 5 effing percent! And Gerral thinks they can win?!

Every single Geth-Quarian conflict has been the Quarian's fault. And they just keep throwing their lives away foolishly for what? I'll tell you: A homeworld the Geth would be happy to GIVE BACK. They don't even LIVE THERE for cripes sake; the Geth would lose NOTHING by letting the Quarians return peacefully to their homeworld and colonies.

Oh, and the Council's quams about synthetics stem FROM THE MORNING WAR ITSELF. Not before.

That;s not to say I endorse what the Geth did, but what the Quarians TRIED to do was worse. "They are our children, Shepard. We have all done terrible things to each other but IT HAS TO END. For BOTH groups."

Please, stop acting like there's someone to point a finger at and say: it's all THEIR fault. The Geth could have solved all this earlier if they had actually DONE something to prove themselves non-agressive instead of waiting for the Quarians to cool off. Which as we saw, wasn't likely to happen any time soon.

[sw04ca]

The geth could also have ran away, like the quarians ended up doing. After all, there's no reason they had to inhabit the same space as the quarians. In fact, being synthetic, they'd have been better off to simply have left.

[SeptimusMagistos]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Solmanian wrote...

There isn't a single detail in the 300 years of geth/quarian conflict that the responsibilty for doesn't rests squarly on the quarian shoulders. You ask how can we look at the quarians as instigators? BECAUSE THEY ARE INSTIGATORS! They started both wars! The geth only turned to the reapers because the quarian surprise, unprovoked attacks cost the lives of so many. The whole reason for both wars, is that the quarians consider the geth as pests to be tamed or exterminated! The quarians seem unable to percieve the geth as someone even remotely equal to them, and the OP simply support that racist claim...

And calling the geh/legion decietfull? I can't remember a single point in the trilogy where an A.I. or V.I. lied to me. Not the homicidal A.I. on the citadel. Not legion, who put the fate of a substantial part of his people in my hands in ME2. Not even the reapers, that from day 1 one told anybody who asked them that they intend to wipe out all technologicaly advanced organic civilizations. So what are you basing those accusations on?

Legion agreed that uploading the reaper code was a bad idea. It says that it would never (I can't exactly remember and I don't feel like looking it up on youtube and it's been so long since I played the game) ... but he lied about that too, and he lied again and again. Legion is not honest. EDI has deceived.

You guys just don't pick the correct dialogue choices that call them on their BS. You always pick the paragon choices. I don't I mix it up.

If I don't need the war assets. I'm going with the Quarians.

Why the heck would it be a bad idea? I was totally onboard with uploading the Reaper code. Frankly I was weirded out by how shy Legion was acting throughout the quest. I was already 100% on his side, he didn't need to dance around the issue.

[m2iCodeJockey]

Calinstel wrote...

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

Calinstel wrote...
(sorry, corrected this) Ah, but (I think) you are still wrong. Had it been just as it was before, then okay, I can buy that but, it was not the same. Legion would have uploaded his reaper code to the consensus without anyone knowing and the quarians would have been wiped out when, before the Reaper intervened, they were winning.
Shepard needed an army and a fleet. Getting both served Shepards needs, not the needs of any one race. Had Shepard just walked away, he would be giving up on Earth. (Though, for the life of me, I don't know why my Shepard gave a rats arse about that place.)

I understand your opinion. I don't expect you to agree but I can restate my own, pragmatically, like this:
-At the point we see the Quarians didn't know not to attack while outnumbered 100+ to 1, they are NOT worth seeking an alliance with.
-At the point we see the Geth display complicity with the Reapers, they are NOT worth the risk of seeking an alliance.
-At the point where Earth's defense fleet is decimated, it makes no sense to try to retake Earth.

The only reason to do any of the three is, we are railroaded into doing so.

And I can respect your thoughts/ideas as well.
The Rannoch plotline was rather... poorly done. In my opinion of course.

It may have been just dialog mistakes but, they failed to show strategic importance in the Sol system:
-Was that most of the Reaper fleet?
If so, I'd have considered blowing Sol if I had confidence it would knock out half or more at once.
The galaxy has BILLIONS of planets. Rannoch and Earth? Hmm...

[KingZayd]

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

Calinstel wrote...

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

Calinstel wrote...
(sorry, corrected this) Ah, but (I think) you are still wrong. Had it been just as it was before, then okay, I can buy that but, it was not the same. Legion would have uploaded his reaper code to the consensus without anyone knowing and the quarians would have been wiped out when, before the Reaper intervened, they were winning.
Shepard needed an army and a fleet. Getting both served Shepards needs, not the needs of any one race. Had Shepard just walked away, he would be giving up on Earth. (Though, for the life of me, I don't know why my Shepard gave a rats arse about that place.)

I understand your opinion. I don't expect you to agree but I can restate my own, pragmatically, like this:
-At the point we see the Quarians didn't know not to attack while outnumbered 100+ to 1, they are NOT worth seeking an alliance with.
-At the point we see the Geth display complicity with the Reapers, they are NOT worth the risk of seeking an alliance.
-At the point where Earth's defense fleet is decimated, it makes no sense to try to retake Earth.

The only reason to do any of the three is, we are railroaded into doing so.

And I can respect your thoughts/ideas as well.
The Rannoch plotline was rather... poorly done. In my opinion of course.

It may have been just dialog mistakes but, they failed to show strategic importance in the Sol system:
-Was that most of the Reaper fleet?
If so, I'd have considered blowing Sol if I had confidence it would knock out half or more at once.
The galaxy has BILLIONS of planets. Rannoch and Earth? Hmm...

Use the Crucibe to overload the Citadel relay. Citadel is above London. Majority of Reaper forces around Earth, concentrated around London. Mass Relay explosions are bad. Citadel Relay is a Mass Relay that reaches Dark Space.

We lose Earth, and a lot of people, but the fleet retreats before the Crucible is activated anyway and we destroy a lot of Reapers. We just made this fight a whole lot fairer.

Modifié par KingZayd, 05 décembre 2012 - 04:59 .

[Solmanian]

Calinstel wrote...

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

Calinstel wrote...

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

Calinstel wrote...

Hate to say it but all these discussions are just so damned silly, I laughed.

Everyone needs to take their polarized 'cool' shades off and notice all the shades of grey in the geth/quarian conflict.
No side was right, and, no side was wrong.
A kneejerk reaction here, a too strong reaction there and soon all out war.
Peace is the only viable option for the two races to move forward. Wiping out one or the other when peace is available is, well, childish to me.

Pretty much why I would chose to let them be wiped out for not ceasing fire.
There was no justification for attack.

Shades still on I see. Oh well.

Ya' missed it.
During ME2, paragon Shepard listens to them discussing settling on a planet.
Rann says: "Let's just find a new planet."
Xen says: "Here's a perfect planet. Let's TAKE it."
Paragon Shep says "Don't do that (treaty violation.)"
At that point, Shep SHOULDN'T interfere because (violated treaty.) The ONLY reason to get involved is a Reaper and, as soon as that's done, the correct thing to do is leave and let the situation evolve unimpeded.

(sorry, corrected this)  Ah, but (I think) you are still wrong.  Had it been just as it was before, then okay, I can buy that but, it was not the same.  Legion would have uploaded his reaper code to the consensus without anyone knowing and the quarians would have been wiped out when, before the Reaper intervened, they were winning.
Shepard needed an army and a fleet.  Getting both served Shepards needs, not the needs of any one race.  Had Shepard just walked away, he would be giving up on Earth.  (Though, for the life of me, I don't know why my Shepard gave a rats arse about that place.)

He's talking about ME2, and you're about ME3, so it's hard to understand what the two of you are actually arguing about, but I'll give my best shot. If the geth had been left alone, the quarian wouldn't have been wiped out (well except until the reaper got a hold of them). The only reason the quarian offensive was so succsessfull is this: The geth were retreating from the physical world. As you know the more geth programs connected the smarter the collective get. since the banishment of the quarians 300 years ago the geth were busy building a "super platform" (and no, it wasn't some uber mecha "unicorn" style. just a building) that will house all the geth programs together, bringing their species and civilization to their peak. And than the quarian bombed it. Killing most of geth, and living with severely diminished inteligence to the point that they turned to reaper for help.

I'd be happy if I could just say "the quarians made them dumber, so they went to the reapers", but that would've been only partialy true. The fact is that going to the reapers was their only alternative to being annihilated.

[Solmanian]

csmokey wrote...

dam you sheppard how could you kill those reapers, they were just doing there job

That's why I choose control... The detroy ending is just this, the ultimate renegade. Caling out "let the galaxy burn, as long as I get to kill them all!".  Frankly, destroy sheperd is not that much better than the reapers. And the fact is most players choose it only cause it gives you a chance that shepard lives. I don't see the breathing at that point as a reward, more as a punishment.

[Solmanian]

KingZayd wrote...

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

Calinstel wrote...

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

Calinstel wrote...
(sorry, corrected this) Ah, but (I think) you are still wrong. Had it been just as it was before, then okay, I can buy that but, it was not the same. Legion would have uploaded his reaper code to the consensus without anyone knowing and the quarians would have been wiped out when, before the Reaper intervened, they were winning.
Shepard needed an army and a fleet. Getting both served Shepards needs, not the needs of any one race. Had Shepard just walked away, he would be giving up on Earth. (Though, for the life of me, I don't know why my Shepard gave a rats arse about that place.)

I understand your opinion. I don't expect you to agree but I can restate my own, pragmatically, like this:
-At the point we see the Quarians didn't know not to attack while outnumbered 100+ to 1, they are NOT worth seeking an alliance with.
-At the point we see the Geth display complicity with the Reapers, they are NOT worth the risk of seeking an alliance.
-At the point where Earth's defense fleet is decimated, it makes no sense to try to retake Earth.

The only reason to do any of the three is, we are railroaded into doing so.

And I can respect your thoughts/ideas as well.
The Rannoch plotline was rather... poorly done. In my opinion of course.

It may have been just dialog mistakes but, they failed to show strategic importance in the Sol system:
-Was that most of the Reaper fleet?
If so, I'd have considered blowing Sol if I had confidence it would knock out half or more at once.
The galaxy has BILLIONS of planets. Rannoch and Earth? Hmm...

Use the Crucibe to overload the Citadel relay. Citadel is above London. Majority of Reaper forces around Earth, concentrated around London. Mass Relay explosions are bad. Citadel Relay is a Mass Relay that reaches Dark Space.

We lose Earth, and a lot of people, but the fleet retreats before the Crucible is activated anyway and we destroy a lot of Reapers. We just made this fight a whole lot fairer.

Numbers are meaningless to reapers. The attrition tactic proved counter productive. All you have done is kill 11 bilion humans. The galaxy industrial infrastructure is past the point of collapse. the homeworlds of the other species are decimated (you'll probably wan't to blow them up too). Your tactics will wipe out 95% of life in the galaxy before the reapers get the chance to do it. You wouldn't have won the war, I'm not even sure you'd even prolong it. And you would've lost/broken your biggest supporters: the remnants of the alliance military. At that point, the majority of the colonies have allready been annihilated, those armies would have no reason to fight without the earth as a rallying point. They would've try to hide or maybe run into the void.

No civilization in the history of mankind won a war by sacrificing it's capital, quite the opposite. Many times the battle for the capital was the defining moment of the war.

[ElSuperGecko]

Solmanian wrote...
That's why I choose control... The detroy ending is just this, the ultimate renegade. Caling out "let the galaxy burn, as long as I get to kill them all!".  Frankly, destroy sheperd is not that much better than the reapers.

LOL, no.  Opinionated headcanon, not backed up by the game.

[JBPBRC]

The entire Geth-Quarian conflict boils down to a series of questions applicable to both sides.

1. Why did you do that?

2. Why did you do that?

3. ...and so forth.

This is why I think Rannoch is overrated. Both sides are complete idiots.

[Solmanian]

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

Calinstel wrote...

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

Calinstel wrote...
(sorry, corrected this) Ah, but (I think) you are still wrong. Had it been just as it was before, then okay, I can buy that but, it was not the same. Legion would have uploaded his reaper code to the consensus without anyone knowing and the quarians would have been wiped out when, before the Reaper intervened, they were winning.
Shepard needed an army and a fleet. Getting both served Shepards needs, not the needs of any one race. Had Shepard just walked away, he would be giving up on Earth. (Though, for the life of me, I don't know why my Shepard gave a rats arse about that place.)

I understand your opinion. I don't expect you to agree but I can restate my own, pragmatically, like this:
-At the point we see the Quarians didn't know not to attack while outnumbered 100+ to 1, they are NOT worth seeking an alliance with.
-At the point we see the Geth display complicity with the Reapers, they are NOT worth the risk of seeking an alliance.
-At the point where Earth's defense fleet is decimated, it makes no sense to try to retake Earth.

The only reason to do any of the three is, we are railroaded into doing so.

And I can respect your thoughts/ideas as well.
The Rannoch plotline was rather... poorly done. In my opinion of course.

It may have been just dialog mistakes but, they failed to show strategic importance in the Sol system:
-Was that most of the Reaper fleet?
If so, I'd have considered blowing Sol if I had confidence it would knock out half or more at once.
The galaxy has BILLIONS of planets. Rannoch and Earth? Hmm...

Stratigic impotenct? how about the billions of people on it. You lose earth, and the human race is effectively extinct. 95%+ of humans still live on earth.