1059 réponses à ce sujet

[Solmanian]

Did you even read the last 20 pages?

[DeinonSlayer]

Solmanian wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...

 In other news, a horde of synthetics operating under the contral of a rogue aritificial artificial intelligence rampaged across Rannoch today, wiping out 99.83% of the planet's indigenous population. Mercifuly, nothing of value was lost.

It's funny because it's true.

Clearly it's pointless to try to reasonably debate with you.

[King Ptolemy IV]

SNascimento wrote...

"You cannot play god, than wash your hands of the things you have created. Sooner or later the day comes, when you can't hide from the things you have done anymore".

The Quarian genocide was their responsability. The Geth were only doing what was expect of them, ie, killing an enemy that was trying to wipe them out from existence. It's a valid conclusion given the circustance that the only response to that is wipe them out in return.

The Geth, if anything, were merciful.

Admiral Adama quote?

OT. In the BSG universe, on which the quarians story is based, had a different variable.  That the two races signed a truce, followed by humanities genocide.  Had that been included it may have been a clear rip off but would have been better.  The geth did not have to wipe out the quarian population, and according the fighter mission there were a large percentage of people who chose to protect the geth, what happened to them.  If they too were killed by the geth as well as the quarians then that Grays everything.  

I personally need that info because everything is too biased now.

[m2iCodeJockey]

Solmanian wrote...

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

Palavan was overrun.
Thessia was also overrun.
Earth is not strategically more important than the other two while the Reapers are attacking the galaxy as a whole.
-A paragon says: "Save our families!!"
-A pragmatist says: "Is that where the Reapers are?! GET 'EM!!!"

So, Hackett, a pragmatist, says something that does not make sense if the audience hasn't been told 90%+ of Sovereign class are currently at Earth.
Before entering TIM's base: "Attacking Cerberus' Base is essentially the first step to retaking Earth." Why? You don't yet know the Citadel is important nor do you know the Citadel has been moved.
-Is there some military resource on Earth beside people that can't be moved since there aren't enough ships?
-Is there some counter offensive advantage to having control of the Charon relay?

Having no idea of the nature of the Crucible discharge ahead of time, he didn't know if they'd have ended up boxed into the Sol system with no way to resupply the non-levo troops.
It's setting up the remaining military force in a kill box.

I'm not saying earth is more importent the the other homeworlds, but that it is as importent. And I doubt that the human soldiers of the alliance, and shepard (being human) would even agree to that.

What you're describing is not pragmatism. That's being a sociopath.
Lets say you're a police chief, and there's an armed terrorist holding a family as hostages. You can send SWAT team in to rescue them, but there's risk that he might shoot, or might even have a bomb. So you decide to blow up the house, to be on the safe side. Do you think anyone would consider you as a GOOD police chief?

But realy, if I can't convince you, that wiping out your own species is a bad idea all around, I'm not even going argue about this.

A SWAT hostage situation is not the same is the Reaper situation.
The Reapers are closer to a proximity communicable virus that fires lasers.

-Sending more people in to fire lasers back is giving it more ammunition.
-Once Earth is taken back, it has to be held. The Reapers aren't going to stop trying to retake Earth.

And my concern is not just humanity, it's the entire galactic community. Once Hackett's fleet is blown through at the beginning, Earth IS lost.
There are then only two reasons to possibly return:
-To rescue as many uninfected civilians as possible AND RUN LIKE HELL.
-If there is a guarantee of cornering the bulk of the Reaper fleet with a weapon class they KNOW beats Reaper shields in a specific way. They were guessing about what the Crucible did.

Modifié par m2iCodeJockey, 05 décembre 2012 - 06:56 .

[m2iCodeJockey]

SNascimento wrote...

"You cannot play god, than wash your hands of the things you have created. Sooner or later the day comes, when you can't hide from the things you have done anymore".

The Quarian genocide was their responsability. The Geth were only doing what was expect of them, ie, killing an enemy that was trying to wipe them out from existence. It's a valid conclusion given the circustance that the only response to that is wipe them out in return.

The Geth, if anything, were merciful.

No, they weren't. Unless you are claiming the Quarians had a 100% militarized society.

Once they had crippled the Quarians' ability wage war, there was no reason to continue fighting.

Modifié par m2iCodeJockey, 05 décembre 2012 - 06:57 .

[G Kevin]

If there were ever enough evidence that the Geth/Quarian issue was lying in the shades of grey, it's that these arguments keep going in circles.

Both sides made questionable decisions from our perspective but for the people at the time, it seemed otherwise.

Was there ever a choice in your life that you looked back and said, "That was dumb of me?" Well, this looks to be like such a case for both the Quarians and the Geth.

[moater boat]

moater boat wrote...

Of course the Geth committed Genocide. They slaughtered not only quarian military, but civilians. There is absolutely no way that Quarian in-fighting accounts for the deaths of billions.

JBPBRC wrote...
Please, point to where its shown that Geth 100% killed 99% of the Quarian population. Facts please, not opinion.

I'll repeat myself since you somehow didn't notice it (even thought you quoted it) "There is no way that Quarian in-fighting accounts for the deaths of billions." SOMEBODY killed billions of quarians. Do you honestly think that the Quarians killed themselves?

moater boat wrote...
The Geth apologists just need to accept that their favorite race
murdered infants by the boatload. Probably simply by stomping on their
soft little heads to conserve ammo.

JBPBRC wrote...Aside from this being silly maliciousness, this doesn't make sense given that ammo wasn't a concern pre-ME2.

It wasn't a concern in the sense that you could fire your weapons hundreds or thousands of times without having to replace the ammo block (remember this from the codex in ME1?) But we aren't talking about hundreds or even thousands of shots here. We are talking about BILLIONS. That means that to kill, say 100 million quarian infants, a conservative estimate, you would need, at a minimum, tens of thousands of ammo blocks.
Thought you are probably right that stomping on their heads would probably not be the method Geth would choose. They probably used massive gas chambers/incinerators.

Furthermore the fact that Geth don't die means that the Geth that killed all those innocent people are the very same ones that the Quarians are fighting in ME3.

JBPBRC wrote...
Geth die. Geth die alot.

What Mass Effect games have you been playing? Surely it can't have been the ones where Geth have been dying left and right. Does yours have a better ending?

Do I need to explain this? I mean they don't die OF OLD AGE. Many of the Geth that took part in the genocide were the very same Geth that were fighting the quarians centuries later.

Modifié par moater boat, 05 décembre 2012 - 07:30 .

[SeptimusMagistos]

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

SNascimento wrote...

"You cannot play god, than wash your hands of the things you have created. Sooner or later the day comes, when you can't hide from the things you have done anymore".

The Quarian genocide was their responsability. The Geth were only doing what was expect of them, ie, killing an enemy that was trying to wipe them out from existence. It's a valid conclusion given the circustance that the only response to that is wipe them out in return.

The Geth, if anything, were merciful.

No, they weren't. Unless you are claiming the Quarians had a 100% militarized society.

Once they had crippled the Quarians' ability wage war, there was no reason to continue fighting.

I don't recall the story of how the quarians offered the geth a peace treaty or tried to negotiate a surrender.

[4stringwizard]

Finn the Jakey wrote...

It's mind boggling how people moan about the Quarians wanting to destroy the Geth when you would be thinking the Exact. Same. Thing if you were in their position.

This is the race that exterminated 99.5% of their population, destroyed their entire civillisation and caused them to be rejected and hated by the entire galaxy, consigned them to a life of roaming the galaxy in run-down ships which are doomed to fall apart, and also caused their immune systems to be damaged to the point they can never have physical contact with each other.
Of course they're going to have a grudge!

Also: most people don't point out that the Geth DO wipe out all Quarians when they're finally given the chance. 

[m2iCodeJockey]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

SNascimento wrote...

"You cannot play god, than wash your hands of the things you have created. Sooner or later the day comes, when you can't hide from the things you have done anymore".

The Quarian genocide was their responsability. The Geth were only doing what was expect of them, ie, killing an enemy that was trying to wipe them out from existence. It's a valid conclusion given the circustance that the only response to that is wipe them out in return.

The Geth, if anything, were merciful.

No, they weren't. Unless you are claiming the Quarians had a 100% militarized society.

Once they had crippled the Quarians' ability wage war, there was no reason to continue fighting.

I don't recall the story of how the quarians offered the geth a peace treaty or tried to negotiate a surrender.

No, I mean the Geth. The Geth had no reason to continue killing the Quarians if the Quarian military is devastated. No treaty, no talks, just: "The Geth wish for you to stop killing us... Oh, and, uh, 4325's question: It wants to know if we have souls..."
The Geth behavior, as described, was not logical.

[ObserverStatus]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Solmanian wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...
 In other news, a horde of synthetics operating under the contral of a rogue aritificial artificial intelligence rampaged across Rannoch today, wiping out 99.83% of the planet's indigenous population. Mercifuly, nothing of value was lost.

It's funny because it's true.

Clearly it's pointless to try to reasonably debate with you.

Why, can't make a reasonable argument as to why I'm wrong?

[SeptimusMagistos]

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

SNascimento wrote...

"You cannot play god, than wash your hands of the things you have created. Sooner or later the day comes, when you can't hide from the things you have done anymore".

The Quarian genocide was their responsability. The Geth were only doing what was expect of them, ie, killing an enemy that was trying to wipe them out from existence. It's a valid conclusion given the circustance that the only response to that is wipe them out in return.

The Geth, if anything, were merciful.

No, they weren't. Unless you are claiming the Quarians had a 100% militarized society.

Once they had crippled the Quarians' ability wage war, there was no reason to continue fighting.

I don't recall the story of how the quarians offered the geth a peace treaty or tried to negotiate a surrender.

No, I mean the Geth. The Geth had no reason to continue killing the Quarians if the Quarian military is devastated. No treaty, no talks, just: "The Geth wish for you to stop killing us... Oh, and, uh, 4325's question: It wants to know if we have souls..."
The Geth behavior, as described, was not logical.

I'm sort of assuming the quarians and the geth just kept firing on each other and neither side showed an inclination to stop. After the first round of WMDs I'd imagine the remaining quarians would go John Connor on the geth, which pretty much requires geth to go Skynet in self-defense.

[cyrexwingblade]

4stringwizard wrote...

Finn the Jakey wrote...

It's mind boggling how people moan about the Quarians wanting to destroy the Geth when you would be thinking the Exact. Same. Thing if you were in their position.

This is the race that exterminated 99.5% of their population, destroyed their entire civillisation and caused them to be rejected and hated by the entire galaxy, consigned them to a life of roaming the galaxy in run-down ships which are doomed to fall apart, and also caused their immune systems to be damaged to the point they can never have physical contact with each other.
Of course they're going to have a grudge!

Also: most people don't point out that the Geth DO wipe out all Quarians when they're finally given the chance. 

And the Quarrians DO wipe out the Geth if they're given the chance.

The point is the two are basically comparable. Both fully intended to wipe the other out, they just had different reasons for it. In the Morning War, I would be sympathetic to the Quarrian civilians, very much so.

In the Rannoch Reclamation war? Geth were basically building a massive housing complex, and were fire-bombed for it. A massive chunk of their society was nuked in one shot, and they panicked. Then Big-Guns-Mcgee comes by and says 'hey, we're killing all organics, want some guns?'

Yeah, I would take it, too.

Imagine if the humans/Shepard were caughte between TWO forces bent on wiping them out. Reapers *and* something just as likely to wipe them off the face of the galaxy. What if the Reapers offered weapons and logistical support to nuke the other one? Yeaaaaah, if you think we'd say 'no' out of honor, you're kidding yourself.

[Kel Riever]

I can justify it. I use the Catalyst's lack of logic to justify everything.

[DeinonSlayer]

bobobo878 wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Solmanian wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...
 In other news, a horde of synthetics operating under the contral of a rogue aritificial artificial intelligence rampaged across Rannoch today, wiping out 99.83% of the planet's indigenous population. Mercifuly, nothing of value was lost.

It's funny because it's true.

Clearly it's pointless to try to reasonably debate with you.

Why, can't make a reasonable argument as to why I'm wrong?

You don't see me making callous jokes about genocide.

[Bizantura]

In the ME story there are a lot of aliens, it is a SF setting after all. But most of us stay on earth and never leave it. Almost every computer/console game is about slaughtering someone. The biggest selling games are one slaughterfest. We humans simple like slaughterfests. Even our history is arbitrary when it comes to counting the dead since the winners writes that history.

Do you count how many victems you slaughter when you play ME or any other game? Or are you feeling comfotable knowing you are playing the hero so why fret about it?! I wonder if all those victems who died by the hand of "the hero" or "the villain" could care less.

[Bill Casey]

Legion said the Geth cleaned toxins left from the Morning War...
Since toxins shouldn't affect Geth, that and the time stamps highly suggest the Geth employed toxins as WMDs...

More or Less, the Morning War can be expressed in this song...

www.youtube.com/watch

Modifié par Bill Casey, 05 décembre 2012 - 08:30 .

[m2iCodeJockey]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...
I'm sort of assuming the quarians and the geth just kept firing on each other and neither side showed an inclination to stop. After the first round of WMDs I'd imagine the remaining quarians would go John Connor on the geth, which pretty much requires geth to go Skynet in self-defense.

Most likely, the person that wrote it did, too. That's not how that would work out:
There's point when one side or the other runs out of ammo and then there's another point where someone runs out of soldiers.
After that point, there's a question to answer: Why did the Geth stay on that planet?
They didn't need food.
There was no one to look after.

[legion999]

Bizantura wrote...

In the ME story there are a lot of aliens, it is a SF setting after all. But most of us stay on earth and never leave it. Almost every computer/console game is about slaughtering someone. The biggest selling games are one slaughterfest. We humans simple like slaughterfests. Even our history is arbitrary when it comes to counting the dead since the winners writes that history.

Do you count how many victems you slaughter when you play ME or any other game? Or are you feeling comfotable knowing you are playing the hero so why fret about it?! I wonder if all those victems who died by the hand of "the hero" or "the villain" could care less.

 .....What?

[SeptimusMagistos]

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...
I'm sort of assuming the quarians and the geth just kept firing on each other and neither side showed an inclination to stop. After the first round of WMDs I'd imagine the remaining quarians would go John Connor on the geth, which pretty much requires geth to go Skynet in self-defense.

Most likely, the person that wrote it did, too. That's not how that would work out:
There's point when one side or the other runs out of ammo and then there's another point where someone runs out of soldiers.
After that point, there's a question to answer: Why did the Geth stay on that planet?
They didn't need food.
There was no one to look after.

From what I understand it was a mix of making Rannoch into a monument and cleaning up the aftermath of the war in case the quarians wanted to come back so that they and the geth could be a family again.

[xAmilli0n]

Bill Casey wrote...

Legion said the Geth cleaned toxins left from the Morning War...
Since toxins shouldn't affect Geth, that and the time stamps highly suggest the Geth employed toxins as WMDs...

More or Less, the Morning War can be expressed in this song...

www.youtube.com/watch

+1 internetz to you

Modifié par xAmilli0n, 05 décembre 2012 - 08:43 .

[Vexille]

My shep asked himself this very simple question to decide which side to side with?

"who would I rather bang?"

the Geth were wiped out about an hour later... if the Geth had decided to make number 8s instead of geth primes things could have been different

[m2iCodeJockey]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...
I'm sort of assuming the quarians and the geth just kept firing on each other and neither side showed an inclination to stop. After the first round of WMDs I'd imagine the remaining quarians would go John Connor on the geth, which pretty much requires geth to go Skynet in self-defense.

Most likely, the person that wrote it did, too. That's not how that would work out:
There's point when one side or the other runs out of ammo and then there's another point where someone runs out of soldiers.
After that point, there's a question to answer: Why did the Geth stay on that planet?
They didn't need food.
There was no one to look after.

From what I understand it was a mix of making Rannoch into a monument and cleaning up the aftermath of the war in case the quarians wanted to come back so that they and the geth could be a family again.

In one place, the codex says 'No crew that has entered the veil has ever been heard from again.'
In another, it says the Geth looked after the planet as if caring for a monument.
People complain about the end. There were problems LONG before the end of ME1.