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[4stringwizard]

cyrexwingblade wrote...

4stringwizard wrote...

Finn the Jakey wrote...

It's mind boggling how people moan about the Quarians wanting to destroy the Geth when you would be thinking the Exact. Same. Thing if you were in their position.

This is the race that exterminated 99.5% of their population, destroyed their entire civillisation and caused them to be rejected and hated by the entire galaxy, consigned them to a life of roaming the galaxy in run-down ships which are doomed to fall apart, and also caused their immune systems to be damaged to the point they can never have physical contact with each other.
Of course they're going to have a grudge!

Also: most people don't point out that the Geth DO wipe out all Quarians when they're finally given the chance. 

And the Quarrians DO wipe out the Geth if they're given the chance.

The point is the two are basically comparable. Both fully intended to wipe the other out, they just had different reasons for it. In the Morning War, I would be sympathetic to the Quarrian civilians, very much so.

In the Rannoch Reclamation war? Geth were basically building a massive housing complex, and were fire-bombed for it. A massive chunk of their society was nuked in one shot, and they panicked. Then Big-Guns-Mcgee comes by and says 'hey, we're killing all organics, want some guns?'

Yeah, I would take it, too.

Imagine if the humans/Shepard were caughte between TWO forces bent on wiping them out. Reapers *and* something just as likely to wipe them off the face of the galaxy. What if the Reapers offered weapons and logistical support to nuke the other one? Yeaaaaah, if you think we'd say 'no' out of honor, you're kidding yourself.

That's kind of moot because that never happened.  What ISN'T moot is that the Geth sided with the Reapers when backed into a corner - something that Shepard was fighting against the entire series. 

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The Geth were never supposed to become as aware like they did, yes? It happened. Perhaps the Quarians should never have made them in the first place, but it was a good idea gone bad. They made too many. The Geth networked and passed that threshold and became aware. The Quarians became afraid. They wanted to deactivate all geth, probably until they determined the limit where the Geth became aware so they could reactivate and stay below that limit since their economy depended upon the Geth. Logical. They saw them as equipment. But not all Quarians were in agreement.

In the beginning of the Morning War we can agree the Geth were confused and on the defensive, yes?

In the beginning of the Morning War we can agree that not all Quarians were in agreement.

We can agree there came a point during the Morning War when the Geth reached a consensus to unify and fight back, yes? Being networked this meant 100% in agreement.

We can agree there came a point during the Morning War when there was a stalemate and a short one, yes?

Then we can agree there came a point when the Geth went on the offensive, yes?

There came point when the Quarian leadership decided to evacuate those they could from the planet, yes?

Then those who were left behind were exterminated by the Geth.

These are the logical stages of the Morning War. There is no speculation here.

[DirtySHISN0]

Solmanian wrote...

Everyone, please remember that the morning war, is called that way because it lasted only a few hours. WMD's were used by both sides. The image of geth loading quarian babies by the truckload to be executed has no basis.

Its called the morning war because it was the dawn of the Geth as a sapient species.


The morning war

Modifié par DirtySHISN0, 05 décembre 2012 - 10:01 .

[SeptimusMagistos]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

The Geth were never supposed to become as aware like they did, yes? It happened. Perhaps the Quarians should never have made them in the first place, but it was a good idea gone bad. They made too many. The Geth networked and passed that threshold and became aware. The Quarians became afraid. They wanted to deactivate all geth, probably until they determined the limit where the Geth became aware so they could reactivate and stay below that limit since their economy depended upon the Geth. Logical. They saw them as equipment. But not all Quarians were in agreement.

Good so far, as long as we can agree that deactivating a sapient program is tantamount to murder.

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
In the beginning of the Morning War we can agree the Geth were confused and on the defensive, yes?

Right.

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
In the beginning of the Morning War we can agree that not all Quarians were in agreement.

Right.

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
We can agree there came a point during the Morning War when the Geth reached a consensus to unify and fight back, yes? Being networked this meant 100% in agreement.

That's really not how the geth consensus works, but close.

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
We can agree there came a point during the Morning War when there was a stalemate and a short one, yes?

We don't know this.

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
Then we can agree there came a point when the Geth went on the offensive, yes?

We don't know this.

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
There came point when the Quarian leadership decided to evacuate those they could from the planet, yes?

Right.

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
Then those who were left behind were exterminated by the Geth.

We don't know if anyone was left behind or what their behavior was towards the geth if they did.

[DeinonSlayer]

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

Solmanian wrote...

Everyone, please remember that the morning war, is called that way because it lasted only a few hours. WMD's were used by both sides. The image of geth loading quarian babies by the truckload to be executed has no basis.

Its called the morning war because it was the dawn of the Geth as a sapient species.

It lasted a year according to the timestamps in the Consensus. Also, Legion says on Tuchanka that the Quarians didn't use nukes, and chemical and biological weapons are only effective against organics.

[Isichar]

I can. I justify the **** out of it.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Bizantura wrote...

In the ME story there are a lot of aliens, it is a SF setting after all. But most of us stay on earth and never leave it. Almost every computer/console game is about slaughtering someone. The biggest selling games are one slaughterfest. We humans simple like slaughterfests. Even our history is arbitrary when it comes to counting the dead since the winners writes that history.

Do you count how many victems you slaughter when you play ME or any other game? Or are you feeling comfotable knowing you are playing the hero so why fret about it?! I wonder if all those victems who died by the hand of "the hero" or "the villain" could care less.

Can you imagine this plot for ME4.... We use Elephant Theory for ME3 and sweep the ending under the rug. The reapers are defeated. The relay system is intact. Shepard survives. Anderson survives because you need Keith David for Mass Effect. The Normandy survives. You play Shepard again. Liara, and EDI return. Everyone else is new. Tali is a councilor. Garrus is a vice Primarch. Wrex is on Tuchanka. The VS has their own command and you never see or hear of them again.

ME4's plot gives Shepard the impossible task of ending racism in the galaxy.  Can you imagine how well this would sell?

We love slaughterfests. We're a violent species. Look at our history. Check our body counts in Skyrim for example (Skyrim keeps track), not to mention like Gears and CoD. Look at our body count in Mass Effect, granted most are aliens. I was astounded to find out I'd wiped out the equivalent of a small city when I played Skyrim.

This is why I have to laugh about holding steadfast to "Paragon" because when it comes to bodycount, it is still still every bit as high. Who really cares about motivation? One death is a tragedy. After a certain point they become a statistic. And people who say "but I did not shoot Legion"... make me laugh.... still they made their choice. It is the same thing. They might as well have not been hypocrites about it and pulled the trigger themselves.

One thing they changed in ME2 was running. In ME1, I used to "run" past enemies to the next area a lot of the time if I could if I didn't feel like fighting. Like the Geth -- I could drive the Mako past them, or "sneak" past them on the Citadel. Of course you miss out on experience points, but if you're already level 50 who cares? In ME2 you have to clear areas. Same in ME3.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

The Geth were never supposed to become as aware like they did, yes? It happened. Perhaps the Quarians should never have made them in the first place, but it was a good idea gone bad. They made too many. The Geth networked and passed that threshold and became aware. The Quarians became afraid. They wanted to deactivate all geth, probably until they determined the limit where the Geth became aware so they could reactivate and stay below that limit since their economy depended upon the Geth. Logical. They saw them as equipment. But not all Quarians were in agreement.

Good so far, as long as we can agree that deactivating a sapient program is tantamount to murder.

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
In the beginning of the Morning War we can agree the Geth were confused and on the defensive, yes?

Right.

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
In the beginning of the Morning War we can agree that not all Quarians were in agreement.

Right.

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
We can agree there came a point during the Morning War when the Geth reached a consensus to unify and fight back, yes? Being networked this meant 100% in agreement.

That's really not how the geth consensus works, but close.

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
We can agree there came a point during the Morning War when there was a stalemate and a short one, yes?

We don't know this.

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
Then we can agree there came a point when the Geth went on the offensive, yes?

We don't know this.

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
There came point when the Quarian leadership decided to evacuate those they could from the planet, yes?

Right.

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
Then those who were left behind were exterminated by the Geth.

We don't know if anyone was left behind or what their behavior was towards the geth if they did.

It is obvious the Geth went on the offensive. How else can you explain how the Quarians lost?  Oh... that.

The stalemate is the turning point.

Be a geth apologist. you cannot deny these. These are the natural logical paths this war took. It is not possible that every surviving Quarian made it off the world. If the Geth were not hostile toward the surviving Quarians, why are there not Quarians on the world? Or did the Geth make the world too toxic for the survivors? It just doesn't add up. They were exterminated.

[DirtySHISN0]

 http://masseffect.wi...m/wiki/Geth_War

Just read it.

This much is certain, the rest is speculation.

[Solmanian]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

These are the logical stages of the Morning War. There is no speculation here.

Actualy most of that post was quarian-biased speculation, so I won't even bother dismantling it for all the wrong things.

[nos_astra]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
The Geth were never supposed to become as aware like they did, yes? It happened. Perhaps the Quarians should never have made them in the first place, but it was a good idea gone bad. They made too many. The Geth networked and passed that threshold and became aware. The Quarians became afraid. They wanted to deactivate all geth, probably until they determined the limit where the Geth became aware so they could reactivate and stay below that limit since their economy depended upon the Geth. Logical. They saw them as equipment. But not all Quarians were in agreement.

Good so far, as long as we can agree that deactivating a sapient program is tantamount to murder.

Deactivating a program or a machine in order to disassemble and study it to determine where things went wrong and how to remove sentience certainly isn't tantamount to murder.
If anything it's like inducing a coma in order to perform brain surgery ... and even that is stretching it considering organics (as portrayed in ME) have emotions, value individuality and free will and can feel pain while even sentient machines/programs are still machines/programs who don't really feel, don't exactly know fear, don't bleed, as evidenced by EDI who says she's only truly alive after Synthesis!

It's just not comparable. 

Trust Bioware to dumb a potentially interesting conflict down and turn it into a simple poor misguides underdogs vs. stupid sort-of-evil guys thing.

Modifié par klarabella, 05 décembre 2012 - 10:44 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

 http://masseffect.wi...m/wiki/Geth_War

Just read it.

This much is certain, the rest is speculation.

Basically not much.

[DirtySHISN0]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

 http://masseffect.wi...m/wiki/Geth_War

Just read it.

This much is certain, the rest is speculation.

Basically not much.

Exactly. It's entirely preference as to which partly responsible party you side with (when peace is not possible).

[Solmanian]

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

 http://masseffect.wi...m/wiki/Geth_War

Just read it.

This much is certain, the rest is speculation.

Read it. it says the majority of the quarian were against the war with the geth. It says that initialy only handfull of geth took up arms in order to defend those unable/unwilling to defend themselves. It says the quarian military slaughtered any quarians that resisted the genocide (which were the majority, mind you) until very few geth sympithisers were left alive.

That entry implies that the quarian military was the one that killed the majoritry of the quarians, to win a civil war (in which the side with the guns won). That was the point where the geth kicked them out. Since it's likely that the military was the one controling the ships, they could tell their children whatever they want. including a made up story on how they were the victims. It's repeatadly stated that the surviving military forces were the core of the flotila. The fact that the only survivors were from the side that wanted to wipe out the geth, is the reason the quarian are the way they are today.

The quarians military remind me of the conclave from fallout.

[DirtySHISN0]

Solmanian wrote...
snip
The quarians military remind me of the conclave from fallout.

Conclave? I don't remember that. Do you mean the Enclave?

[DeinonSlayer]

Solmanian wrote...

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

 http://masseffect.wi...m/wiki/Geth_War

Just read it.

This much is certain, the rest is speculation.

Read it. it says the majority of the quarian were against the war with the geth. It says that initialy only handfull of geth took up arms in order to defend those unable/unwilling to defend themselves. It says the quarian military slaughtered any quarians that resisted the genocide (which were the majority, mind you) until very few geth sympithisers were left alive.

That entry implies that the quarian military was the one that killed the majoritry of the quarians, to win a civil war (in which the side with the guns won). That was the point where the geth kicked them out. Since it's likely that the military was the one controling the ships, they could tell their children whatever they want. including a made up story on how they were the victims. It's repeatadly stated that the surviving military forces were the core of the flotila. The fact that the only survivors were from the side that wanted to wipe out the geth, is the reason the quarian are the way they are today.

The quarians military remind me of the conclave from fallout.

The wikia is created and run by anyone who cares to edit it. The entry on "Quarian," by contrast, says an "indeterminate number" were killed by the military.

The truth is that we just don't know. But if that's what you want to believe, I doubt anything we say will change your mind.

[Obadiah]

The Quarians don't get sympathy just because the the Geth amost wiped them out after the Quarians failed in their attempt to do that to the Geth.

[DeinonSlayer]

Obadiah wrote...

The Quarians don't get sympathy just because the the Geth amost wiped them out after the Quarians failed in their attempt to do that to the Geth.

The humans don't get sympathy just because Skynet almost wiped them out after the US Department of Defense failed in their attempt to shut it down.

[SaidRael]

I do not see the story as "This is innocent and this guilty," the universe is governed like our world, everyone has something good to offer and something bad.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The main objection I have with Bioware's story arcs is when they are doing such a major story arc such as this over the course of three games they don't flesh out any of it. They leave it to this masseffect.wikia.com thing for reference which IMO is crap. And the codex on the war is absolute crap.

We need a history on it, and ffs the writers need a history on it so they can be consistent with it. They oversimplify everything and reduce the messages to the lowest common denominator. Things aren't that simple. We are left making decisions in ME3 for two factions that we have absolutely no business doing so.

Like I posted earlier.

1) When Legion uploads the code, Tali should kill Legion on her own to save her people, and Shepard should have the opportunity to stop it via a very early RENEGADE interrupt (because Paragons are loathe to take them). Tali is your friend, so it should be renegade because you are going against your friend's wishes.

2) Then if Legion is killed, Shepard should be given the opportunity to contact the Quarian fleet and tell them to halt the attack. Tali should tell Gerrel to belay that and to attack.

3) Shepard should be able to a) go along with Tali OR shoot Tali and try to convince Gerrel who will want to talk to Tali, and then you must be evacuated immediately.

Shepard leaves with nothing. So the mission is Peace (both Geth + Quarians); Quarians; Nothing. That's the way it should have resolved.

[DeinonSlayer]

No, Julia, I'd say the renegade interrupt should only show if it's clear Shepard plans to let the Quarians die. Legion tries to kill you if you side against him. Tali should try to kill Legion if if you side against her.

And in the original script, she did. Legion punches her, and Shepard stands by and does nothing.

[DirtySHISN0]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Shepard leaves with nothing. So the mission is Peace (both Geth + Quarians); Quarians; Nothing. That's the way it should have resolved.

Ha I like the idea of Tali being shootable.

She doesn't do it on her own because according to her races tradition shepard is still her captian and her shipmaster. She is so loyalty whipped she won't disobey either shepard or the quarians, despite her own opinions. One of her more annoying traits.

[WhiteKnyght]

Pantanplan wrote...

I choose peace everytime in Rannoch, and I like Legion's character, but you can't deny the fact that the geth slaughtered billions of innocents. They are presented as innocent and looking for guidance, and that the quarians are 100% responsible, but really, only 17 million quarians were left after the Morning War. Nothing, and I repeat, nothing justifies such slaughter. To all of you who support the geth and Legion's version of their history: how are the geth innocent and lost children, while the quarians the aggressive instigators who deserve genocide?
Beforethe Reaper code upload the geth were indvidual VI-like programs who only gained intelligence by grouping together. The quarians have families, children, civilians while the geth have none of this. When peace isn't an option, why do some save the geth and let the quarians die?

The Quarians began using violence against their own people. And then covered it up, putting all the blame on the Geth. That's why Raan reacts the way she does when Shepard forwards the Geth's archive of events to her. Because it completely contradicted the version her people tell.

Creator Megara is an excellent example of just how far the Quarians were willing to go, and they didn't even kill the Geth in that case, just the sympathizer.

Also nowhere in ME does it say that the Geth slaughtered children or non-combatants. For all you know, they could have all been loaded onto the evacuation ships. Or the Quarians could have been forcibly conscripting from the civilians.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 05 décembre 2012 - 11:22 .

[Nerevar-as]

klarabella wrote...

Deactivating a program or a machine in order to disassemble and study it to determine where things went wrong and how to remove sentience certainly isn't tantamount to murder.
If anything it's like inducing a coma in order to perform brain surgery ... and even that is stretching it considering organics (as portrayed in ME) have emotions, value individuality and free will and can feel pain while even sentient machines/programs are still machines/programs who don't really feel, don't exactly know fear, don't bleed, as evidenced by EDI who says she's only truly alive after Synthesis!

It's just not comparable. 

Trust Bioware to dumb a potentially interesting conflict down and turn it into a simple poor misguides underdogs vs. stupid sort-of-evil guys thing.

If the program is self-aware and it´s erased, it´s murder. If it isn´t, it´s experimenting on an intelligent being without it´s consent. Either way, applied to a human it´s a crime. Removing sentience already there? Murder.

And I´d say machines have emotions? Will to live?Striving to be better? Curiosity?

The only difference is we are Carbon based machines. Whatever whoever wrote synthesis thinks.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

No, Julia, I'd say the renegade interrupt should only show if it's clear Shepard plans to let the Quarians die. Legion tries to kill you if you side against him. Tali should try to kill Legion if if you side against her.

And in the original script, she did. Legion punches her, and Shepard stands by and does nothing.

You're right. I messed it up. It should be followed by a later paragon interrupt to stop her and this one allows for the peace dialogue options.