1059 réponses à ce sujet

[DeinonSlayer]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

The Quarians began using violence against their own people. And then covered it up, putting all the blame on the Geth. That's why Raan reacts the way she does when Shepard forwards the Geth's archive of events to her. Because it completely contradicted the version her people tell.

She says it doesn't match what they know. There are two equally viable possibilities: Either the Quarian recounting of the situation changed over time, or you were shown false or incomplete information meant to shape your perception. Or both. People seem to put absolute faith into what you're shown in the consensus despite Legion lying multiple times.

People seem willing to extrapolate to a spectacular degree to convince themselves the Geth didn't commit genocide. Guess what: the Geth are a collective gestalt entity. In their perception, it was one collective against another. A 99% genocide would be self defense from their point of view. From the individualistic organic perspective, though, it's anything but.

I think I've said just about all I have to say here. Neither side is budging.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 05 décembre 2012 - 11:36 .

[nos_astra]

Nerevar-as wrote...
If the program is self-aware and it´s erased, it´s murder. If it isn´t, it´s experimenting on an intelligent being without it´s consent. Either way, applied to a human it´s a crime. Removing sentience already there? Murder.

And I´d say machines have emotions? Will to live?Striving to be better? Curiosity?

The only difference is we are Carbon based machines. Whatever whoever wrote synthesis thinks:

That sounds really nice, politically correct and idealistic. I'm not even saying the general idea is wrong. It's a good guideline and serves us well when it comes to dealing with our own kind. 

However, antropmorphizing AIs (not even machines, programs) and throwing around loaded words like murder doesn't make for an interesting discussion.

Of course, since ME established that the dawn of the geth (who are programs, not humanoid platforms) was apparently initiated conveniently by asking the hard questions it's probably silly to ask people to consider that sentience of a program or a machine might be very different from what we may expect.

Ok, let's try another angle then. The quarians are not one entitiy. They are a many individuals governed by a group of individuals who feel responsible for keeping the rest of them save. How exactly does the idea that deactivating something that you would have identified as an "object" just yesterday expressed and maybe attempted by some people (not out of malice but out of genuine fear) warrant the near-extinction of a species?

Modifié par klarabella, 05 décembre 2012 - 11:44 .

[Nerevar-as]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

The Quarians began using violence against their own people. And then covered it up, putting all the blame on the Geth. That's why Raan reacts the way she does when Shepard forwards the Geth's archive of events to her. Because it completely contradicted the version her people tell.

She says it doesn't match what they know. There are two equally viable possibilities: Either the Quarian recounting of the situation changed over time, or you were shown false or incomplete information meant to shape your perception. Or both. People seem to put absolute faith into what you're shown in the consensus despite Legion lying multiple times.

People seem willing to extrapolate to a spectacular degree to convince themselves the Geth didn't commit genocide. Guess what: the Geth are a collective gestalt entity. In their perception, it was one collective against another. A 99% genocide would be self defense from their point of view. From the individualistic organic perspective, though, it's anything but.

I think I've said just about all I have to say here. Neither side is budging.

You know, that´s probably the most reasonable motive behind the genocide (without going meta, that is). Although it would mean a genocide from lack of understanding in both sides.

[Steelcan]

It's still not genocide to try and deactivate the geth.

[BarrelDrago]

It's still not genocide to try and deactivate the quarian.

[Nerevar-as]

Steelcan wrote...

It's still not genocide to try and deactivate the geth.

Then it´s not murder to kill you. It´s just desactivating a Carbon based machine after all.

Really, life shouldn´t be defined in terms of hardware.

Modifié par Nerevar-as, 05 décembre 2012 - 11:58 .

[Steelcan]

Nerevar-as wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

It's still not genocide to try and deactivate the geth.

Then it´s not murder to kill you. It´s just desactivating a Carbon based machine after all.

Really, life shouldn´t be defined in terms of hardware.

Life is defined by several things.  First and foremost life must be shaped by natural selection and must evolve.  The geth do not evolve. They are outside of nature, they are machines.  Advanced machines, but they are not living.

Furthermore the geth's consciousness is the result of an unforseen error.  They did not evolve sapience, they were programmed for it.

[D4rkSektor]

A single Geth program does not equal one person, as it by itself is no more sentient than a few thousand cells in an organic body. Therefore, it is not murder to terminate one Geth program. It is difficult to define what constitutes murder when it comes to the Geth. However, terminating, with malicious intent, however many Geth programs it takes to gain AI-level intelligence and awareness could be one such definition.

Modifié par D4rkSektor, 06 décembre 2012 - 12:18 .

[Bill Casey]

Steelcan wrote...

Life is defined by several things.  First and foremost life must be shaped by natural selection and must evolve.  The geth do not evolve. They are outside of nature, they are machines.  Advanced machines, but they are not living.

Furthermore the geth's consciousness is the result of an unforseen error.  They did not evolve sapience, they were programmed for it.

Organics control all teh dictionaries...

[DeinonSlayer]

D4rkSektor wrote...

A single Geth program does not equal one person, as it by itself is no more sentient than a few thousand cells in an organic body. Therefore, it is not murder to terminate one Geth program. It is difficult to define what constitutes murder when it comes to the Geth. However, terminating, with malicious intent, however many Geth programs it takes to gain AI-level intelligence and awareness could be one such definition.

Agreed. It's nebulous. One Geth has the intellect of a worker ant. A hundred (the complement for a standard combat chassis) is about as smart as a varren. 1183 on a similar platform gives you Legion, but I doubt the same number of runtimes could operate a cruiser intelligently.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 06 décembre 2012 - 12:22 .

[ObserverStatus]

Bizantura wrote...

In the ME story there are a lot of aliens, it is a SF setting after all. But most of us stay on earth and never leave it. Almost every computer/console game is about slaughtering someone. The biggest selling games are one slaughterfest. We humans simple like slaughterfests. Even our history is arbitrary when it comes to counting the dead since the winners writes that history.

Do you count how many victems you slaughter when you play ME or any other game? Or are you feeling comfotable knowing you are playing the hero so why fret about it?! I wonder if all those victems who died by the hand of "the hero" or "the villain" could care less.

You're being ridiculous, one cannot consider what happened to the Quarians to be genocide, they scarcely even fit the definition of living creatures. More exosuit waste treatment systems and cybernetic than living creatures now, they're essentially morally equivalent to a pacemaker ductaped to a port-a-potty.

[draken-heart]

You cannot justify an animal killing people either, but that does not stop people from getting involved in trying to protect them.

[Nerevar-as]

Steelcan wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

It's still not genocide to try and deactivate the geth.

Then it´s not murder to kill you. It´s just desactivating a Carbon based machine after all.

Really, life shouldn´t be defined in terms of hardware.

Life is defined by several things.  First and foremost life must be shaped by natural selection and must evolve.  The geth do not evolve. They are outside of nature, they are machines.  Advanced machines, but they are not living.

Furthermore the geth's consciousness is the result of an unforseen error.  They did not evolve sapience, they were programmed for it.

You are a machine too. Without going in religion, we are just an accident. If we go, then we are programmed to be what we are. Either way, it´s nothing to feel being C-based is a forced requisite to enter in the "I am alive" club.

[D4rkSektor]

Nerevar-as wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

It's still not genocide to try and deactivate the geth.

Then it´s not murder to kill you. It´s just desactivating a Carbon based machine after all.

Really, life shouldn´t be defined in terms of hardware.

Life is defined by several things.  First and foremost life must be shaped by natural selection and must evolve.  The geth do not evolve. They are outside of nature, they are machines.  Advanced machines, but they are not living.

Furthermore the geth's consciousness is the result of an unforseen error.  They did not evolve sapience, they were programmed for it.

You are a machine too. Without going in religion, we are just an accident. If we go, then we are programmed to be what we are. Either way, it´s nothing to feel being C-based is a forced requisite to enter in the "I am alive" club.

Exactly. And who's to say the Geth don't evolve? They can change their own programming and can create special chassis for different needs.

[Steelcan]

Nerevar-as wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

It's still not genocide to try and deactivate the geth.

Then it´s not murder to kill you. It´s just desactivating a Carbon based machine after all.

Really, life shouldn´t be defined in terms of hardware.

Life is defined by several things.  First and foremost life must be shaped by natural selection and must evolve.  The geth do not evolve. They are outside of nature, they are machines.  Advanced machines, but they are not living.

Furthermore the geth's consciousness is the result of an unforseen error.  They did not evolve sapience, they were programmed for it.

You are a machine too. Without going in religion, we are just an accident. If we go, then we are programmed to be what we are. Either way, it´s nothing to feel being C-based is a forced requisite to enter in the "I am alive" club.

I am organic. I am shaped by my environment, I am the product of evolution.  I can think outside the box.  The geth are limited by their programming, they are not alive until they get the reaper upgrades

[Steelcan]

D4rkSektor wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

It's still not genocide to try and deactivate the geth.

Then it´s not murder to kill you. It´s just desactivating a Carbon based machine after all.

Really, life shouldn´t be defined in terms of hardware.

Life is defined by several things.  First and foremost life must be shaped by natural selection and must evolve.  The geth do not evolve. They are outside of nature, they are machines.  Advanced machines, but they are not living.

Furthermore the geth's consciousness is the result of an unforseen error.  They did not evolve sapience, they were programmed for it.

You are a machine too. Without going in religion, we are just an accident. If we go, then we are programmed to be what we are. Either way, it´s nothing to feel being C-based is a forced requisite to enter in the "I am alive" club.

Exactly. And who's to say the Geth don't evolve? They can change their own programming and can create special chassis for different needs.

That is a conscious decision, not evolution

[D4rkSektor]

Steelcan wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

It's still not genocide to try and deactivate the geth.

Then it´s not murder to kill you. It´s just desactivating a Carbon based machine after all.

Really, life shouldn´t be defined in terms of hardware.

Life is defined by several things.  First and foremost life must be shaped by natural selection and must evolve.  The geth do not evolve. They are outside of nature, they are machines.  Advanced machines, but they are not living.

Furthermore the geth's consciousness is the result of an unforseen error.  They did not evolve sapience, they were programmed for it.

You are a machine too. Without going in religion, we are just an accident. If we go, then we are programmed to be what we are. Either way, it´s nothing to feel being C-based is a forced requisite to enter in the "I am alive" club.

Exactly. And who's to say the Geth don't evolve? They can change their own programming and can create special chassis for different needs.

That is a conscious decision, not evolution

I don't think they are mutually exclusive. In evolution, the most adaptable survive. It is the process of adapting to the environment. Likewise, the Geth or any other intelligent life form can choose to adapt.
EDIT: Now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure EDI and Javik had this same conversation.

Modifié par D4rkSektor, 06 décembre 2012 - 12:41 .

[m2iCodeJockey]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
...We love slaughterfests...

Yeaaaaaah-No.
I need a reason to be doing whatever I am.

I DID notice I was railroaded into freeing Jack.
I noticed when I helped her kill a bunch of Krogans over a scrap pile in an abandoned building that we blew up.

[DeinonSlayer]

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
...We love slaughterfests...

Yeaaaaaah-No.
I need a reason to be doing whatever I am.

I DID notice I was railroaded into freeing Jack.
I noticed when I helped her kill a bunch of Krogans over a scrap pile in an abandoned building that we blew up.

Yeah... knowing what we knew about her from the dossier alone (no meta), I'd have left Jack in the fridge if the option existed.

[Steelcan]

D4rkSektor wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

It's still not genocide to try and deactivate the geth.

Then it´s not murder to kill you. It´s just desactivating a Carbon based machine after all.

Really, life shouldn´t be defined in terms of hardware.

Life is defined by several things.  First and foremost life must be shaped by natural selection and must evolve.  The geth do not evolve. They are outside of nature, they are machines.  Advanced machines, but they are not living.

Furthermore the geth's consciousness is the result of an unforseen error.  They did not evolve sapience, they were programmed for it.

You are a machine too. Without going in religion, we are just an accident. If we go, then we are programmed to be what we are. Either way, it´s nothing to feel being C-based is a forced requisite to enter in the "I am alive" club.

Exactly. And who's to say the Geth don't evolve? They can change their own programming and can create special chassis for different needs.

That is a conscious decision, not evolution

I don't think they are mutually exclusive. In evolution, the most adaptable survive. It is the process of adapting to the environment. Likewise, the Geth or any other intelligent life form can choose to adapt.
EDIT: Now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure EDI and Javik had this same conversation.

And I sided with Javik  The difference is that evolution is a force beyond control.  The geth are sapient but not living, semantics really

[WhiteKnyght]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

The Quarians began using violence against their own people. And then covered it up, putting all the blame on the Geth. That's why Raan reacts the way she does when Shepard forwards the Geth's archive of events to her. Because it completely contradicted the version her people tell.

She says it doesn't match what they know. There are two equally viable possibilities: Either the Quarian recounting of the situation changed over time, or you were shown false or incomplete information meant to shape your perception. Or both. People seem to put absolute faith into what you're shown in the consensus despite Legion lying multiple times.

People seem willing to extrapolate to a spectacular degree to convince themselves the Geth didn't commit genocide. Guess what: the Geth are a collective gestalt entity. In their perception, it was one collective against another. A 99% genocide would be self defense from their point of view. From the individualistic organic perspective, though, it's anything but.

I think I've said just about all I have to say here. Neither side is budging.

By the Quarians' own admission, they attacked first when they gave the order to forcibly de-activate all the Geth. They started the conflict because they were too bullheaded to just give the Geth their freedom.

And aside from Admiral Korris, none of the Quarians were even willing to consider looking for a peaceful solution. But the first true Geth you meet admits that his people are open to the idea, but not unless the Quarians can prove they're willing because they never passed up a chance to attack them before; so they didn't trust them.

[D4rkSektor]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

The Quarians began using violence against their own people. And then covered it up, putting all the blame on the Geth. That's why Raan reacts the way she does when Shepard forwards the Geth's archive of events to her. Because it completely contradicted the version her people tell.

She says it doesn't match what they know. There are two equally viable possibilities: Either the Quarian recounting of the situation changed over time, or you were shown false or incomplete information meant to shape your perception. Or both. People seem to put absolute faith into what you're shown in the consensus despite Legion lying multiple times.

People seem willing to extrapolate to a spectacular degree to convince themselves the Geth didn't commit genocide. Guess what: the Geth are a collective gestalt entity. In their perception, it was one collective against another. A 99% genocide would be self defense from their point of view. From the individualistic organic perspective, though, it's anything but.

I think I've said just about all I have to say here. Neither side is budging.

By the Quarians' own admission, they attacked first when they gave the order to forcibly de-activate all the Geth. They started the conflict because they were too bullheaded to just give the Geth their freedom.

And aside from Admiral Korris, none of the Quarians were even willing to consider looking for a peaceful solution. But the first true Geth you meet admits that his people are open to the idea, but not unless the Quarians can prove they're willing because they never passed up a chance to attack them before; so they didn't trust them.

You're missing a few facts. First, it's not just the Quarians who are "bullheaded." AIs were and still are considered dangerous and illegal in Council space, meaning that any other race would have done the same thing. Striking first was an inevitability. Second, Tali also wanted peace and she was an admiral by ME3.

Modifié par D4rkSektor, 06 décembre 2012 - 01:01 .

[DeinonSlayer]

D4rkSektor wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

The Quarians began using violence against their own people. And then covered it up, putting all the blame on the Geth. That's why Raan reacts the way she does when Shepard forwards the Geth's archive of events to her. Because it completely contradicted the version her people tell.

She says it doesn't match what they know. There are two equally viable possibilities: Either the Quarian recounting of the situation changed over time, or you were shown false or incomplete information meant to shape your perception. Or both. People seem to put absolute faith into what you're shown in the consensus despite Legion lying multiple times.

People seem willing to extrapolate to a spectacular degree to convince themselves the Geth didn't commit genocide. Guess what: the Geth are a collective gestalt entity. In their perception, it was one collective against another. A 99% genocide would be self defense from their point of view. From the individualistic organic perspective, though, it's anything but.

I think I've said just about all I have to say here. Neither side is budging.

By the Quarians' own admission, they attacked first when they gave the order to forcibly de-activate all the Geth. They started the conflict because they were too bullheaded to just give the Geth their freedom.

And aside from Admiral Korris, none of the Quarians were even willing to consider looking for a peaceful solution. But the first true Geth you meet admits that his people are open to the idea, but not unless the Quarians can prove they're willing because they never passed up a chance to attack them before; so they didn't trust them.

You're missing a few facts. First, it's not just the Quarians who are "bullheaded." AIs were and still are illegal in Council space, meaning that any other race would have done the same thing. Striking first was an inevitability. Second, Tali also wanted peace and she was an admiral by ME3.

That, and the Geth spent the last three centuries shooting down any organics in their territory on sight without so much as responding to a radio hail. The Quarians had no reason to believe peace was possible in the first place when that and the heretic invasion the Geth ignored for two years are the only interaction they've had with organics ever since the closing days of the war.

[D4rkSektor]

DeinonSlayer wrote...
That, and the Geth spent the last three centuries shooting down any organics in their territory on sight without so much as responding to a radio hail. The Quarians had no reason to believe peace was possible in the first place when that and the heretic invasion the Geth ignored for two years are the only interaction they've had with organics ever since the closing days of the war.

Exactly.

[4stringwizard]

Nerevar-as wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

It's still not genocide to try and deactivate the geth.

Then it´s not murder to kill you. It´s just desactivating a Carbon based machine after all.

Really, life shouldn´t be defined in terms of hardware.

Life is defined by several things.  First and foremost life must be shaped by natural selection and must evolve.  The geth do not evolve. They are outside of nature, they are machines.  Advanced machines, but they are not living.

Furthermore the geth's consciousness is the result of an unforseen error.  They did not evolve sapience, they were programmed for it.

You are a machine too. Without going in religion, we are just an accident. If we go, then we are programmed to be what we are. Either way, it´s nothing to feel being C-based is a forced requisite to enter in the "I am alive" club.

Humans are not just "organic machines."  They are vastly more complex than that.   That's a terrible and narrow-minded analogy.

Even if that was a good analogy, machines can be rebuilt or reactivated.  Organics cannot.