1059 réponses à ce sujet

[D4rkSektor]

4stringwizard wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

It's still not genocide to try and deactivate the geth.

Then it´s not murder to kill you. It´s just desactivating a Carbon based machine after all.

Really, life shouldn´t be defined in terms of hardware.

Life is defined by several things.  First and foremost life must be shaped by natural selection and must evolve.  The geth do not evolve. They are outside of nature, they are machines.  Advanced machines, but they are not living.

Furthermore the geth's consciousness is the result of an unforseen error.  They did not evolve sapience, they were programmed for it.

You are a machine too. Without going in religion, we are just an accident. If we go, then we are programmed to be what we are. Either way, it´s nothing to feel being C-based is a forced requisite to enter in the "I am alive" club.

Humans are not just "organic machines."  They are vastly more complex than that.   That's a terrible and narrow-minded analogy.

Even if that was a good analogy, machines can be rebuilt or reactivated.  Organics cannot. 

Complexity should have nothing to do with whether or not organics are machines. While there is no purpose to organic life except to make more organic life, there are clear purposes for the systems that support life. E.g. Your stomach helps process food and turns it into energy. It performs a function.

Also, a living organism is actually part of the definition of machine in the Merriam-Webster dictionary.
"2 a[/i] : a living organism or one of its functional systems"
http://www.merriam-w...tionary/machine

[SeptimusMagistos]

klarabella wrote...

That sounds really nice, politically correct and idealistic. I'm not even saying the general idea is wrong. It's a good guideline and serves us well when it comes to dealing with our own kind. 

However, antropmorphizing AIs (not even machines, programs) and throwing around loaded words like murder doesn't make for an interesting discussion.

I prefer to think of it as respecting non-anthropomorphic intelligence. Otherwise I'm basing people's rights on how similar they are to me, and that's a terrible way to do things.

klarabella wrote...

Ok, let's try another angle then. The quarians are not one entitiy. They are a many individuals governed by a group of individuals who feel responsible for keeping the rest of them save. How exactly does the idea that deactivating something that you would have identified as an "object" just yesterday expressed and maybe attempted by some people (not out of malice but out of genuine fear) warrant the near-extinction of a species?

Easy. The geth were objects until they achieved sentience and living beings afterward. Once they hit sapience they had all the rights anyone else did. Especially the right to not be made non-sapient.

While the question of how many rights a single geth runtime has vs. a single quarian is more complicated, anyone shouting 'none' is showing a dangerous favoritism of individual-based species over hive-minded ones.

[DeinonSlayer]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

klarabella wrote...

That sounds really nice, politically correct and idealistic. I'm not even saying the general idea is wrong. It's a good guideline and serves us well when it comes to dealing with our own kind. 

However, antropmorphizing AIs (not even machines, programs) and throwing around loaded words like murder doesn't make for an interesting discussion.

I prefer to think of it as respecting non-anthropomorphic intelligence. Otherwise I'm basing people's rights on how similar they are to me, and that's a terrible way to do things.

klarabella wrote...

Ok, let's try another angle then. The quarians are not one entitiy. They are a many individuals governed by a group of individuals who feel responsible for keeping the rest of them save. How exactly does the idea that deactivating something that you would have identified as an "object" just yesterday expressed and maybe attempted by some people (not out of malice but out of genuine fear) warrant the near-extinction of a species?

Easy. The geth were objects until they achieved sentience and living beings afterward. Once they hit sapience they had all the rights anyone else did. Especially the right to not be made non-sapient.

While the question of how many rights a single geth runtime has vs. a single quarian is more complicated, anyone shouting 'none' is showing a dangerous favoritism of individual-based species over hive-minded ones.

Agreed on all counts.

[m2iCodeJockey]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

klarabella wrote...

That sounds really nice, politically correct and idealistic. I'm not even saying the general idea is wrong. It's a good guideline and serves us well when it comes to dealing with our own kind.

However, antropmorphizing AIs (not even machines, programs) and throwing around loaded words like murder doesn't make for an interesting discussion.

I prefer to think of it as respecting non-anthropomorphic intelligence. Otherwise I'm basing people's rights on how similar they are to me, and that's a terrible way to do things.

klarabella wrote...

Ok, let's try another angle then. The quarians are not one entitiy. They are a many individuals governed by a group of individuals who feel responsible for keeping the rest of them save. How exactly does the idea that deactivating something that you would have identified as an "object" just yesterday expressed and maybe attempted by some people (not out of malice but out of genuine fear) warrant the near-extinction of a species?

Easy. The geth were objects until they achieved sentience and living beings afterward. Once they hit sapience they had all the rights anyone else did. Especially the right to not be made non-sapient.

While the question of how many rights a single geth runtime has vs. a single quarian is more complicated, anyone shouting 'none' is showing a dangerous favoritism of individual-based species over hive-minded ones.

Agreed.

When addressing the issue, we will have to present to them what we feel are equivalent rights, acknowledging their differences ahead of time.

[KingZayd]

Solmanian wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

Calinstel wrote...

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

Calinstel wrote...
(sorry, corrected this) Ah, but (I think) you are still wrong. Had it been just as it was before, then okay, I can buy that but, it was not the same. Legion would have uploaded his reaper code to the consensus without anyone knowing and the quarians would have been wiped out when, before the Reaper intervened, they were winning.
Shepard needed an army and a fleet. Getting both served Shepards needs, not the needs of any one race. Had Shepard just walked away, he would be giving up on Earth. (Though, for the life of me, I don't know why my Shepard gave a rats arse about that place.)

I understand your opinion. I don't expect you to agree but I can restate my own, pragmatically, like this:
-At the point we see the Quarians didn't know not to attack while outnumbered 100+ to 1, they are NOT worth seeking an alliance with.
-At the point we see the Geth display complicity with the Reapers, they are NOT worth the risk of seeking an alliance.
-At the point where Earth's defense fleet is decimated, it makes no sense to try to retake Earth.

The only reason to do any of the three is, we are railroaded into doing so.

And I can respect your thoughts/ideas as well.
The Rannoch plotline was rather... poorly done. In my opinion of course.

It may have been just dialog mistakes but, they failed to show strategic importance in the Sol system:
-Was that most of the Reaper fleet?
If so, I'd have considered blowing Sol if I had confidence it would knock out half or more at once.
The galaxy has BILLIONS of planets. Rannoch and Earth? Hmm...

Use the Crucibe to overload the Citadel relay. Citadel is above London. Majority of Reaper forces around Earth, concentrated around London. Mass Relay explosions are bad. Citadel Relay is a Mass Relay that reaches Dark Space.

We lose Earth, and a lot of people, but the fleet retreats before the Crucible is activated anyway and we destroy a lot of Reapers. We just made this fight a whole lot fairer.

Numbers are meaningless to reapers. The attrition tactic proved counter productive. All you have done is kill 11 bilion humans. The galaxy industrial infrastructure is past the point of collapse. the homeworlds of the other species are decimated (you'll probably wan't to blow them up too). Your tactics will wipe out 95% of life in the galaxy before the reapers get the chance to do it. You wouldn't have won the war, I'm not even sure you'd even prolong it. And you would've lost/broken your biggest supporters: the remnants of the alliance military. At that point, the majority of the colonies have allready been annihilated, those armies would have no reason to fight without the earth as a rallying point. They would've try to hide or maybe run into the void.

No civilization in the history of mankind won a war by sacrificing it's capital, quite the opposite. Many times the battle for the capital was the defining moment of the war.

The attrition didn't work because the Reapers changed tactics and went straight for the planets. The organics were forced on the defensive, and that was a fight they could not win.

The Alliance fleets were still there. Our "Capital" had already been lost at the start of ME3.

[KingZayd]

Steelcan wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

It's still not genocide to try and deactivate the geth.

Then it´s not murder to kill you. It´s just desactivating a Carbon based machine after all.

Really, life shouldn´t be defined in terms of hardware.

Life is defined by several things.  First and foremost life must be shaped by natural selection and must evolve.  The geth do not evolve. They are outside of nature, they are machines.  Advanced machines, but they are not living.

Furthermore the geth's consciousness is the result of an unforseen error.  They did not evolve sapience, they were programmed for it.

To what extent is humanity still evolving due to natural selection? Does the fact that we've reduced the impact of natural selection make us less alive?

They weren't programmed for it. they develeoped it themselves.

[Steelcan]

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

It's still not genocide to try and deactivate the geth.

Then it´s not murder to kill you. It´s just desactivating a Carbon based machine after all.

Really, life shouldn´t be defined in terms of hardware.

Life is defined by several things.  First and foremost life must be shaped by natural selection and must evolve.  The geth do not evolve. They are outside of nature, they are machines.  Advanced machines, but they are not living.

Furthermore the geth's consciousness is the result of an unforseen error.  They did not evolve sapience, they were programmed for it.

To what extent is humanity still evolving due to natural selection? Does the fact that we've reduced the impact of natural selection make us less alive?

They weren't programmed for it. they develeoped it themselves.

Mass Effect wiki, the Geth War.  It states plain and simple that the geth's AI was an unforseen consequence of their networked intelligence.

And humanity is less impacted by natural selection true, but we are still affected by cultural evolution, read some Dawkins.

Modifié par Steelcan, 06 décembre 2012 - 02:05 .

[KingZayd]

4stringwizard wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

It's still not genocide to try and deactivate the geth.

Then it´s not murder to kill you. It´s just desactivating a Carbon based machine after all.

Really, life shouldn´t be defined in terms of hardware.

Life is defined by several things.  First and foremost life must be shaped by natural selection and must evolve.  The geth do not evolve. They are outside of nature, they are machines.  Advanced machines, but they are not living.

Furthermore the geth's consciousness is the result of an unforseen error.  They did not evolve sapience, they were programmed for it.

You are a machine too. Without going in religion, we are just an accident. If we go, then we are programmed to be what we are. Either way, it´s nothing to feel being C-based is a forced requisite to enter in the "I am alive" club.

Humans are not just "organic machines."  They are vastly more complex than that.   That's a terrible and narrow-minded analogy.

Even if that was a good analogy, machines can be rebuilt or reactivated.  Organics cannot. 

Shepard was rebuilt and reactivated. BOOM

Machines can be complex.

[DeinonSlayer]

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

It's still not genocide to try and deactivate the geth.

Then it´s not murder to kill you. It´s just desactivating a Carbon based machine after all.

Really, life shouldn´t be defined in terms of hardware.

Life is defined by several things.  First and foremost life must be shaped by natural selection and must evolve.  The geth do not evolve. They are outside of nature, they are machines.  Advanced machines, but they are not living.

Furthermore the geth's consciousness is the result of an unforseen error.  They did not evolve sapience, they were programmed for it.

To what extent is humanity still evolving due to natural selection? Does the fact that we've reduced the impact of natural selection make us less alive?

They weren't programmed for it. they develeoped it themselves.

Geth modifying their own code could be compared to organics modifying their own genome. Natural selection isn't the only force that guides evolution, though. There's also gene drift, gene flow, and mutation.

[KingZayd]

Imperium Alpha wrote...

Who really consider a bunch of toaster with flashlight to hold the same right as organics?... D:

You people never watch Terminator or any Sci-Fi film about synthetic...? It never goes well in the long run even if it's start good.

Film == truth don't try to contradict this flawless logic 

And it's often because of people behaving like the Quarians

[Steelcan]

By repeatedly tweaking the geth's systems, the quarians had inadvertently allowed the geth to evolve into an Artificial Intelligence, thus becoming sentient

Straight from the wiki

[KingZayd]

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

It's still not genocide to try and deactivate the geth.

Then it´s not murder to kill you. It´s just desactivating a Carbon based machine after all.

Really, life shouldn´t be defined in terms of hardware.

Life is defined by several things.  First and foremost life must be shaped by natural selection and must evolve.  The geth do not evolve. They are outside of nature, they are machines.  Advanced machines, but they are not living.

Furthermore the geth's consciousness is the result of an unforseen error.  They did not evolve sapience, they were programmed for it.

To what extent is humanity still evolving due to natural selection? Does the fact that we've reduced the impact of natural selection make us less alive?

They weren't programmed for it. they develeoped it themselves.

Mass Effect wiki, the Geth War.  It states plain and simple that the geth's AI was an unforseen consequence of their networked intelligence.

And humanity is less impacted by natural selection true, but we are still affected by cultural evolution, read some Dawkins.

Yes. It was a consequence. It didn't happen automatically. Their intelligence improved, and they eventually became sapient.

Cultural evolution is not  a biological process. Clearly by your logic we are less alive than our ancestors were.

Modifié par KingZayd, 06 décembre 2012 - 02:08 .

[KingZayd]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

It's still not genocide to try and deactivate the geth.

Then it´s not murder to kill you. It´s just desactivating a Carbon based machine after all.

Really, life shouldn´t be defined in terms of hardware.

Life is defined by several things.  First and foremost life must be shaped by natural selection and must evolve.  The geth do not evolve. They are outside of nature, they are machines.  Advanced machines, but they are not living.

Furthermore the geth's consciousness is the result of an unforseen error.  They did not evolve sapience, they were programmed for it.

To what extent is humanity still evolving due to natural selection? Does the fact that we've reduced the impact of natural selection make us less alive?

They weren't programmed for it. they develeoped it themselves.

Geth modifying their own code could be compared to organics modifying their own genome. Natural selection isn't the only force that guides evolution, though. There's also gene drift, gene flow, and mutation.

My point is that while evolution is naturally mainly influenced through natural selection (of the most successful mutations), it doesn't have to be that way to still be evolution.

[DeinonSlayer]

KingZayd wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

It's still not genocide to try and deactivate the geth.

Then it´s not murder to kill you. It´s just desactivating a Carbon based machine after all.

Really, life shouldn´t be defined in terms of hardware.

Life is defined by several things.  First and foremost life must be shaped by natural selection and must evolve.  The geth do not evolve. They are outside of nature, they are machines.  Advanced machines, but they are not living.

Furthermore the geth's consciousness is the result of an unforseen error.  They did not evolve sapience, they were programmed for it.

To what extent is humanity still evolving due to natural selection? Does the fact that we've reduced the impact of natural selection make us less alive?

They weren't programmed for it. they develeoped it themselves.

Geth modifying their own code could be compared to organics modifying their own genome. Natural selection isn't the only force that guides evolution, though. There's also gene drift, gene flow, and mutation.

My point is that while evolution is naturally mainly influenced through natural selection (of the most successful mutations), it doesn't have to be that way to still be evolution.

I know. I was agreeing with you. It's the difference between random and directed evolution.

[Steelcan]

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

It's still not genocide to try and deactivate the geth.

Then it´s not murder to kill you. It´s just desactivating a Carbon based machine after all.

Really, life shouldn´t be defined in terms of hardware.

Life is defined by several things.  First and foremost life must be shaped by natural selection and must evolve.  The geth do not evolve. They are outside of nature, they are machines.  Advanced machines, but they are not living.

Furthermore the geth's consciousness is the result of an unforseen error.  They did not evolve sapience, they were programmed for it.

To what extent is humanity still evolving due to natural selection? Does the fact that we've reduced the impact of natural selection make us less alive?

They weren't programmed for it. they develeoped it themselves.

Mass Effect wiki, the Geth War.  It states plain and simple that the geth's AI was an unforseen consequence of their networked intelligence.

And humanity is less impacted by natural selection true, but we are still affected by cultural evolution, read some Dawkins.

Yes. It was a consequence. It didn't happen automatically. Their intelligence improved, and they eventually became sapient.

Cultural evolution is not  a biological process. Clearly by your logic we are less alive than our ancestors were.

But it is still evolution, it causes the genteticc structure of the population to change.

[KingZayd]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

It's still not genocide to try and deactivate the geth.

Then it´s not murder to kill you. It´s just desactivating a Carbon based machine after all.

Really, life shouldn´t be defined in terms of hardware.

Life is defined by several things.  First and foremost life must be shaped by natural selection and must evolve.  The geth do not evolve. They are outside of nature, they are machines.  Advanced machines, but they are not living.

Furthermore the geth's consciousness is the result of an unforseen error.  They did not evolve sapience, they were programmed for it.

To what extent is humanity still evolving due to natural selection? Does the fact that we've reduced the impact of natural selection make us less alive?

They weren't programmed for it. they develeoped it themselves.

Geth modifying their own code could be compared to organics modifying their own genome. Natural selection isn't the only force that guides evolution, though. There's also gene drift, gene flow, and mutation.

My point is that while evolution is naturally mainly influenced through natural selection (of the most successful mutations), it doesn't have to be that way to still be evolution.

I know. I was agreeing with you. It's the difference between random and directed evolution.

Good I thought so, and originally it did say "that's my point". But I thought I should change it just in case you didn't mean what I thought you did.

[KingZayd]

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

It's still not genocide to try and deactivate the geth.

Then it´s not murder to kill you. It´s just desactivating a Carbon based machine after all.

Really, life shouldn´t be defined in terms of hardware.

Life is defined by several things.  First and foremost life must be shaped by natural selection and must evolve.  The geth do not evolve. They are outside of nature, they are machines.  Advanced machines, but they are not living.

Furthermore the geth's consciousness is the result of an unforseen error.  They did not evolve sapience, they were programmed for it.

To what extent is humanity still evolving due to natural selection? Does the fact that we've reduced the impact of natural selection make us less alive?

They weren't programmed for it. they develeoped it themselves.

Mass Effect wiki, the Geth War.  It states plain and simple that the geth's AI was an unforseen consequence of their networked intelligence.

And humanity is less impacted by natural selection true, but we are still affected by cultural evolution, read some Dawkins.

Yes. It was a consequence. It didn't happen automatically. Their intelligence improved, and they eventually became sapient.

Cultural evolution is not  a biological process. Clearly by your logic we are less alive than our ancestors were.

But it is still evolution, it causes the genteticc structure of the population to change.

And the Geth's development is still evolution and changes their own equivalent of the genetic structure.

Modifié par KingZayd, 06 décembre 2012 - 02:16 .

[Andromidius]

Pantanplan wrote...

I choose peace everytime in Rannoch, and I like Legion's character, but you can't deny the fact that the geth slaughtered billions of innocents. They are presented as innocent and looking for guidance, and that the quarians are 100% responsible, but really, only 17 million quarians were left after the Morning War. Nothing, and I repeat, nothing justifies such slaughter. To all of you who support the geth and Legion's version of their history: how are the geth innocent and lost children, while the quarians the aggressive instigators who deserve genocide?
Beforethe Reaper code upload the geth were indvidual VI-like programs who only gained intelligence by grouping together. The quarians have families, children, civilians while the geth have none of this. When peace isn't an option, why do some save the geth and let the quarians die?

And some people defend the Reapers for their actions.

But the main reason the deathtoll was so high is because the Quarians wouldn't stop fighting.  They started the war and escalated it before the Geth even returned fire.  But when they did, they were exceedingly good at it.

The Geth stopped their attack once the Quarians disengaged from the fight, and let them retreat.  Accusing them of genocide is a bit short sighted in the context - if your enemy won't stop attacking you, you can't stop defending yourself.  And remember that the Quarians were killing each other during this war too.

Compared them to the Reapers, and the Reapers are 100% the aggressors.  They offer zero mercy, and don't just kill you.  They can't be reasoned with or ran away from - they keep coming, relentlessly.

[Steelcan]

KingZayd wrote...

And the Geth's development is still evolution and changes their own equivalent of the genetic structure.

Except their "evolution" was a mistake.  they are forcibly changing their "genetics" that is not evolution, that is an upgrade

[Andromidius]

Imperium Alpha wrote...

Who really consider a bunch of toaster with flashlight to hold the same right as organics?... D:

You people never watch Terminator or any Sci-Fi film about synthetic...? It never goes well in the long run even if it's start good.

Film == truth don't try to contradict this flawless logic 

A few hundred years ago, some people said the same for non-white people.  Most people still feel the same way towards non-human animals.

I consider a machine that can reason and learn and act with a free will to be at least on par with other animals.

[KingZayd]

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

And the Geth's development is still evolution and changes their own equivalent of the genetic structure.

Except their "evolution" was a mistake.  they are forcibly changing their "genetics" that is not evolution, that is an upgrade

Evolution is rarely on purpose. What's your point?

It's an upgrade and it's evolution. The two are not mutually exclusive.

[Steelcan]

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

And the Geth's development is still evolution and changes their own equivalent of the genetic structure.

Except their "evolution" was a mistake.  they are forcibly changing their "genetics" that is not evolution, that is an upgrade

Evolution is rarely on purpose. What's your point?

It's an upgrade and it's evolution. The two are not mutually exclusive.

There is a difference between chance and a mistake.  Chance is unbiased, random.  A mistake is something that went wrong.

And yes they are exclusive.  Evolution is not a conscious decision, and upgrade is

[DeinonSlayer]

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

And the Geth's development is still evolution and changes their own equivalent of the genetic structure.

Except their "evolution" was a mistake.  they are forcibly changing their "genetics" that is not evolution, that is an upgrade

Evolution is rarely on purpose. What's your point?

It's an upgrade and it's evolution. The two are not mutually exclusive.

There is a difference between chance and a mistake.  Chance is unbiased, random.  A mistake is something that went wrong.

And yes they are exclusive.  Evolution is not a conscious decision, and upgrade is

In all fairness, artificial selection is just as much a driver of evolution as natural selection - look at modern farm animals. If by 2185 humanity used genetic modification to eliminate traits from the gene pool which, say, led to genetic diseases, that's an "upgrade," but it also signifies an evolutionary change.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 06 décembre 2012 - 02:33 .

[Steelcan]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

And the Geth's development is still evolution and changes their own equivalent of the genetic structure.

Except their "evolution" was a mistake.  they are forcibly changing their "genetics" that is not evolution, that is an upgrade

Evolution is rarely on purpose. What's your point?

It's an upgrade and it's evolution. The two are not mutually exclusive.

There is a difference between chance and a mistake.  Chance is unbiased, random.  A mistake is something that went wrong.

And yes they are exclusive.  Evolution is not a conscious decision, and upgrade is

In all fairness, artificial selection is just as much a driver of evolution as natural selection - look at modern farm animals. If by 2185 humanity used genetic modification to eliminate traits from the gene pool which, say, led to genetic diseases, that's an "upgrade," but it also signifies an evolutionary change.

But "Artificial selection" is for the most part still accomplished the same way natural selection has been going on, its just getting a helping hand.

As for eliminating the genetic diseases, yes that would be a change in the gene code, but I would still consider that an upgrade, it would be impossible without very advanced technology.