1059 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Wrong.

natural selection is based on the certain mutations being beneficial enough to allow their carriers to survive and reproduce more successfully.

Artificial selection can work through just selective breeding.

The only differenc is how "beneficial" traits are determined.  Everyhting else is the same.

And artificial selection is not used to produce new species, that may be an end result, but the intent is an upgrade to an existing species.

No. They can all be separated and reproduce. Just every specimen has it's partners selected. That way none of the traits are more "beneficial" than the others.

Artificial selection can lead to evolution. The intent is not usually to "upgrade" an existing species (although it can be), but to get a certain characteristic, the process of which often (due to inbreeding) leads to more defects.

That certain characteristic is an improvment over the original, thus an upgrade.

[SeptimusMagistos]

So, to throw a wrench into the discussion: why is evolution considered important for whether or not the geth shouldn't be killed?

Surely sapience is the only measure of what rights an arrangement of atoms deserves?

[Steelcan]

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

So yes.

All I can see about their divergence is this:
It is generally believed that H. versicolor[/i] evolved from H. chrysoscelis[/i] in the last major ice age, when areas of extremely low temperature divided populations.

Which suggests to me that it happened over more than 1 generation. Where do you get that figure from?

Not necessarily, the divergence occured then, it doesn't say how quickly.

But I helped in an ecological study of the two different species, thats where I learned the figure.

The divergence happened due to separate populations. Surely separate populations wouldn't matter if it was 1 generation?
Did the study produce any papers which you can link to?

Not to my knowledge.  I was just a volunteer helping a professor, so I don't know what evantually happened with the project.  It may have been scrapped.  And sperate populations can diverge very quickly, the reason it was hypothesized to be one generation was the nature of the mutation that caused the divergence.

Modifié par Steelcan, 06 décembre 2012 - 03:21 .

[KingZayd]

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Wrong.

natural selection is based on the certain mutations being beneficial enough to allow their carriers to survive and reproduce more successfully.

Artificial selection can work through just selective breeding.

The only differenc is how "beneficial" traits are determined.  Everyhting else is the same.

And artificial selection is not used to produce new species, that may be an end result, but the intent is an upgrade to an existing species.

No. They can all be separated and reproduce. Just every specimen has it's partners selected. That way none of the traits are more "beneficial" than the others.

Artificial selection can lead to evolution. The intent is not usually to "upgrade" an existing species (although it can be), but to get a certain characteristic, the process of which often (due to inbreeding) leads to more defects.

That certain characteristic is an improvment over the original, thus an upgrade.

Not necessarily an improvement. And even if it was, it doesn't make it "not evolution".

[KingZayd]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

So, to throw a wrench into the discussion: why is evolution considered important for whether or not the geth shouldn't be killed?

Surely sapience is the only measure of what rights an arrangement of atoms deserves?

I don't disagree. I stated long ago in this thread that even though synthetics don't fit the definition of life that we have (being biological in nature), there is no reason why the synthetic equivalent (let's just call it existence for now) is any less valid.

Modifié par KingZayd, 06 décembre 2012 - 03:22 .

[Steelcan]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

So, to throw a wrench into the discussion: why is evolution considered important for whether or not the geth shouldn't be killed?

Surely sapience is the only measure of what rights an arrangement of atoms deserves?

My argument is that they weren't alive in the first place because they didn't evolve.  Sapience is seperate from being considered living.  EDI is sapient, but not a living organism

[Steelcan]

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Wrong.

natural selection is based on the certain mutations being beneficial enough to allow their carriers to survive and reproduce more successfully.

Artificial selection can work through just selective breeding.

The only differenc is how "beneficial" traits are determined.  Everyhting else is the same.

And artificial selection is not used to produce new species, that may be an end result, but the intent is an upgrade to an existing species.

No. They can all be separated and reproduce. Just every specimen has it's partners selected. That way none of the traits are more "beneficial" than the others.

Artificial selection can lead to evolution. The intent is not usually to "upgrade" an existing species (although it can be), but to get a certain characteristic, the process of which often (due to inbreeding) leads to more defects.

That certain characteristic is an improvment over the original, thus an upgrade.

Not necessarily an improvement. And even if it was, it doesn't make it "not evolution".

If the organism was being artificially selected then there was some sort of trait that was being sought after and either magnified, or decreased, either way it is an improvment on the original

[Errationatus]

You know what you did?

 - What?

You used too many words. BSN don't read, boy. BSN just rages and mindlessly reacts.  It flings sh!t and digs for ever-deeper depths of "hate"-filled irrelevancy!  There is a reason this is the most reviled and derided board in gaming, brah. C'mon!

 - Hey, now - admit it, you can never have too many pictures of Tali's flat ass or Miranda's giant bubblebutt, though, amiright?!

Jack's got the best ass in the game, hands down, followed in a very close second by Kasumi.  Liara's is also extremely nice.  Period.  End of that discussion.  Regardless, you tried a cogent argument in this forum of vicious cretins, and you actually expected anyone to notice?  That, my friend, is the definition of "stubborn".

 - Yeah, yeah...  you can't help it.  It's a topic you're interested in, so you give it a shot.

Dude, they're surmising chemical attacks and comparing it to the American Civil War, neither of which are even remotely relevant to why the Morning War happened.

 - Yeah, okay.  It's a waste of time, I know, I know.  Still, the clusterfvcked train wreck that is BSN has its moments.

Yeah, sure, if you like watching vindictive retards fling crap at each other.  They won't even read this edit.

 - What the hell, it kills a slow morning.

Well, so would getting violently and pointedly drunk - and the massive hangover would feel like you were trying to wade through this place anyway. But at least you would have been loaded first.

 - You have a point.  So... you're better off with alcohol poisoning than trying to actually argue anything on BSN?

Pretty much.

Modifié par JakeMacDon, 06 décembre 2012 - 02:46 .

[SeptimusMagistos]

Steelcan wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

So, to throw a wrench into the discussion: why is evolution considered important for whether or not the geth shouldn't be killed?

Surely sapience is the only measure of what rights an arrangement of atoms deserves?

My argument is that they weren't alive in the first place because they didn't evolve.  Sapience is seperate from being considered living.  EDI is sapient, but not a living organism

Okay, but being alive isn't what gets you rights. Being sapient is.

Is it so controversial to say that all sapients have an inalienable right to not have their consciousness destroyed?

[KingZayd]

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

So yes.

All I can see about their divergence is this:
It is generally believed that H. versicolor[/i] evolved from H. chrysoscelis[/i] in the last major ice age, when areas of extremely low temperature divided populations.

Which suggests to me that it happened over more than 1 generation. Where do you get that figure from?

Not necessarily, the divergence occured then, it doesn't say how quickly.

But I helped in an ecological study of the two different species, thats where I learned the figure.

The divergence happened due to separate populations. Surely separate populations wouldn't matter if it was 1 generation?
Did the study produce any papers which you can link to?

Not to my knowledge.  I was just a volunteer helping a professor, so I don't know what evantually happened with the project.  It may have been scrapped.  And sperate populations can diverge very quickly, the reason it was hypothesized to be one generation was the nature of the mutation that caused the divergence.

The mutation might have taken 1 generation. But for the carriers to have become a separate species would probably have taken more than 1 generation. While they were still majorly interbreeding with the original population, they'd still be considered the same species.

[Steelcan]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

So, to throw a wrench into the discussion: why is evolution considered important for whether or not the geth shouldn't be killed?

Surely sapience is the only measure of what rights an arrangement of atoms deserves?

My argument is that they weren't alive in the first place because they didn't evolve.  Sapience is seperate from being considered living.  EDI is sapient, but not a living organism

Okay, but being alive isn't what gets you rights. Being sapient is.

Is it so controversial to say that all sapients have an inalienable right to not have their consciousness destroyed?

NO, but the geth werent fully sapient until the reaper code was uploaded, according to Legion himself

[KingZayd]

Steelcan wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

So, to throw a wrench into the discussion: why is evolution considered important for whether or not the geth shouldn't be killed?

Surely sapience is the only measure of what rights an arrangement of atoms deserves?

My argument is that they weren't alive in the first place because they didn't evolve.  Sapience is seperate from being considered living.  EDI is sapient, but not a living organism

Okay, but being alive isn't what gets you rights. Being sapient is.

Is it so controversial to say that all sapients have an inalienable right to not have their consciousness destroyed?

NO, but the geth werent fully sapient until the reaper code was uploaded, according to Legion himself

define "fully sapient".

[Steelcan]

KingZayd wrote...

The mutation might have taken 1 generation. But for the carriers to have become a separate species would probably have taken more than 1 generation. While they were still majorly interbreeding with the original population, they'd still be considered the same species.

The two species are completely incapable of interbreding because of the nature of the divergence, haploid/diploid.

[Steelcan]

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

So, to throw a wrench into the discussion: why is evolution considered important for whether or not the geth shouldn't be killed?

Surely sapience is the only measure of what rights an arrangement of atoms deserves?

My argument is that they weren't alive in the first place because they didn't evolve.  Sapience is seperate from being considered living.  EDI is sapient, but not a living organism

Okay, but being alive isn't what gets you rights. Being sapient is.

Is it so controversial to say that all sapients have an inalienable right to not have their consciousness destroyed?

NO, but the geth werent fully sapient until the reaper code was uploaded, according to Legion himself

define "fully sapient".

Completely able to make their own decisons independant of others

[KingZayd]

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

The mutation might have taken 1 generation. But for the carriers to have become a separate species would probably have taken more than 1 generation. While they were still majorly interbreeding with the original population, they'd still be considered the same species.

The two species are completely incapable of interbreding because of the nature of the divergence, haploid/diploid.

Actually it's not haploid/diploid. It's diploid/ tetraploid.
From what the article tells me, they don't USUALLY interbreed.

Otherwise the mutation would have had to have happened twice in the same generation, and then the the two carriers would have had to reproduce together etc.

[4stringwizard]

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

So, to throw a wrench into the discussion: why is evolution considered important for whether or not the geth shouldn't be killed?

Surely sapience is the only measure of what rights an arrangement of atoms deserves?

My argument is that they weren't alive in the first place because they didn't evolve.  Sapience is seperate from being considered living.  EDI is sapient, but not a living organism

Okay, but being alive isn't what gets you rights. Being sapient is.

Is it so controversial to say that all sapients have an inalienable right to not have their consciousness destroyed?

NO, but the geth werent fully sapient until the reaper code was uploaded, according to Legion himself

define "fully sapient".

Completely able to make their own decisons independant of others

...And if you take the EC into consideration, the Geth aren't even truly alive until "synthesis."  

[KingZayd]

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

So, to throw a wrench into the discussion: why is evolution considered important for whether or not the geth shouldn't be killed?

Surely sapience is the only measure of what rights an arrangement of atoms deserves?

My argument is that they weren't alive in the first place because they didn't evolve.  Sapience is seperate from being considered living.  EDI is sapient, but not a living organism

Okay, but being alive isn't what gets you rights. Being sapient is.

Is it so controversial to say that all sapients have an inalienable right to not have their consciousness destroyed?

NO, but the geth werent fully sapient until the reaper code was uploaded, according to Legion himself

define "fully sapient".

Completely able to make their own decisons independant of others

I don't see that definition for sapient in any dictionary. What is your justification for setting "full" sapience at that point?

[KingZayd]

4stringwizard wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

So, to throw a wrench into the discussion: why is evolution considered important for whether or not the geth shouldn't be killed?

Surely sapience is the only measure of what rights an arrangement of atoms deserves?

My argument is that they weren't alive in the first place because they didn't evolve.  Sapience is seperate from being considered living.  EDI is sapient, but not a living organism

Okay, but being alive isn't what gets you rights. Being sapient is.

Is it so controversial to say that all sapients have an inalienable right to not have their consciousness destroyed?

NO, but the geth werent fully sapient until the reaper code was uploaded, according to Legion himself

define "fully sapient".

Completely able to make their own decisons independant of others

...And if you take the EC into consideration, the Geth aren't even truly alive until "synthesis."  

And why would EDI and Legion get to decide what "alive" and "sapient" mean?

Modifié par KingZayd, 06 décembre 2012 - 03:33 .

[Steelcan]

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

The mutation might have taken 1 generation. But for the carriers to have become a separate species would probably have taken more than 1 generation. While they were still majorly interbreeding with the original population, they'd still be considered the same species.

The two species are completely incapable of interbreding because of the nature of the divergence, haploid/diploid.

Actually it's not haploid/diploid. It's diploid/ tetraploid.
From what the article tells me, they don't USUALLY interbreed.

Otherwise the mutation would have had to have happened twice in the same generation, and then the the two carriers would have had to reproduce together etc.

Sorry my mistake, but they can't interbreed succesfully, I should have clarified that.  tehy can produce offspring, but they are sterile, I think, its been a while.

Besides if the entire clutch bred with each other the could produce a distinct population, inbred, but distinct

[Steelcan]

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

So, to throw a wrench into the discussion: why is evolution considered important for whether or not the geth shouldn't be killed?

Surely sapience is the only measure of what rights an arrangement of atoms deserves?

My argument is that they weren't alive in the first place because they didn't evolve.  Sapience is seperate from being considered living.  EDI is sapient, but not a living organism

Okay, but being alive isn't what gets you rights. Being sapient is.

Is it so controversial to say that all sapients have an inalienable right to not have their consciousness destroyed?

NO, but the geth werent fully sapient until the reaper code was uploaded, according to Legion himself

define "fully sapient".

Completely able to make their own decisons independant of others

I don't see that definition for sapient in any dictionary. What is your justification for setting "full" sapience at that point?

When they are on par with humans in terms of ability to think.

[SeptimusMagistos]

Steelcan wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

So, to throw a wrench into the discussion: why is evolution considered important for whether or not the geth shouldn't be killed?

Surely sapience is the only measure of what rights an arrangement of atoms deserves?

My argument is that they weren't alive in the first place because they didn't evolve.  Sapience is seperate from being considered living.  EDI is sapient, but not a living organism

Okay, but being alive isn't what gets you rights. Being sapient is.

Is it so controversial to say that all sapients have an inalienable right to not have their consciousness destroyed?

NO, but the geth werent fully sapient until the reaper code was uploaded, according to Legion himself

Not individual geth. They gained sapience when they merged to form a hive mind.

Are you prejudiced against hive minds?

[KingZayd]

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

The mutation might have taken 1 generation. But for the carriers to have become a separate species would probably have taken more than 1 generation. While they were still majorly interbreeding with the original population, they'd still be considered the same species.

The two species are completely incapable of interbreding because of the nature of the divergence, haploid/diploid.

Actually it's not haploid/diploid. It's diploid/ tetraploid.
From what the article tells me, they don't USUALLY interbreed.

Otherwise the mutation would have had to have happened twice in the same generation, and then the the two carriers would have had to reproduce together etc.

Sorry my mistake, but they can't interbreed succesfully, I should have clarified that.  tehy can produce offspring, but they are sterile, I think, its been a while.

Besides if the entire clutch bred with each other the could produce a distinct population, inbred, but distinct

Their offspring would be sterile, now. But this wouldn't have been the case straight after the mutation. Or else the mutation would have died out very quickly, due not being able to produce fertile offspring.
The mutation would have taken place in 1 of the gametes as I understand it.

[Steelcan]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

So, to throw a wrench into the discussion: why is evolution considered important for whether or not the geth shouldn't be killed?

Surely sapience is the only measure of what rights an arrangement of atoms deserves?

My argument is that they weren't alive in the first place because they didn't evolve.  Sapience is seperate from being considered living.  EDI is sapient, but not a living organism

Okay, but being alive isn't what gets you rights. Being sapient is.

Is it so controversial to say that all sapients have an inalienable right to not have their consciousness destroyed?

NO, but the geth werent fully sapient until the reaper code was uploaded, according to Legion himself

Not individual geth. They gained sapience when they merged to form a hive mind.

Are you prejudiced against hive minds?

Networked intelligence, not a hive mind. But I might be........

[KingZayd]

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

So, to throw a wrench into the discussion: why is evolution considered important for whether or not the geth shouldn't be killed?

Surely sapience is the only measure of what rights an arrangement of atoms deserves?

My argument is that they weren't alive in the first place because they didn't evolve.  Sapience is seperate from being considered living.  EDI is sapient, but not a living organism

Okay, but being alive isn't what gets you rights. Being sapient is.

Is it so controversial to say that all sapients have an inalienable right to not have their consciousness destroyed?

NO, but the geth werent fully sapient until the reaper code was uploaded, according to Legion himself

define "fully sapient".

Completely able to make their own decisons independant of others

I don't see that definition for sapient in any dictionary. What is your justification for setting "full" sapience at that point?

When they are on par with humans in terms of ability to think.

So if Krogan aren't quite on par with humans for example, they are not "fully sapient"?
What if the Salarians were to base it on their ability to think, and decided we weren't "fully sapient"?

Also, if it wasn't for the Starchild reveal, this logic would totally have justified the Reapers slaughtering us, as we wouldn't be "fully sapient" either.

Modifié par KingZayd, 06 décembre 2012 - 03:42 .

[Steelcan]

KingZayd wrote...

Their offspring would be sterile, now. But this wouldn't have been the case straight after the mutation. Or else the mutation would have died out very quickly, due not being able to produce fertile offspring.
The mutation would have taken place in 1 of the gametes as I understand it.

1000's of indiviuals, is enough for a new species, I know that one finding of the study was that the Cope's variant was significantly less gentically diverse.

they can't produce fertile offspring across the species barrier, but they can still screw each other and have fertile offspring.