1059 réponses à ce sujet

[KingZayd]

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Their offspring would be sterile, now. But this wouldn't have been the case straight after the mutation. Or else the mutation would have died out very quickly, due not being able to produce fertile offspring.
The mutation would have taken place in 1 of the gametes as I understand it.

1000's of indiviuals, is enough for a new species, I know that one finding of the study was that the Cope's variant was significantly less gentically diverse.

they can't produce fertile offspring across the species barrier, but they can still screw each other and have fertile offspring.

Yes but the initial mutation would have taken place once. It would take time to have reached 1000s of individuals with the same gene.

[Steelcan]

KingZayd wrote...

So if Krogan aren't quite on par with humans for example, they are not "fully sapient"?
What if the Salarians were to base it on their ability to think, and decided we weren't "fully sapient"?

Also, if it wasn't for the Starchild reveal, this logic would totally have justified the Reapers slaughtering us, as we wouldn't be "fully sapient" either.

Krogan are on par with humans, as are salarians, their minds just work faster.

And the reapers would not be justified, we pose no threat to them.  The geth were a threat to the quarians

[Steelcan]

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Their offspring would be sterile, now. But this wouldn't have been the case straight after the mutation. Or else the mutation would have died out very quickly, due not being able to produce fertile offspring.
The mutation would have taken place in 1 of the gametes as I understand it.

1000's of indiviuals, is enough for a new species, I know that one finding of the study was that the Cope's variant was significantly less gentically diverse.

they can't produce fertile offspring across the species barrier, but they can still screw each other and have fertile offspring.

Yes but the initial mutation would have taken place once. It would take time to have reached 1000s of individuals with the same gene.

  Not necessarily, one hypothesis, that was never proven, is that it was mutation in the gametes and all offspring birthed by that one frog became the new species, but again not proved.

[KingZayd]

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

So if Krogan aren't quite on par with humans for example, they are not "fully sapient"?
What if the Salarians were to base it on their ability to think, and decided we weren't "fully sapient"?

Also, if it wasn't for the Starchild reveal, this logic would totally have justified the Reapers slaughtering us, as we wouldn't be "fully sapient" either.

Krogan are on par with humans, as are salarians, their minds just work faster.

And the reapers would not be justified, we pose no threat to them.  The geth were a threat to the quarians

LOL, do you really think that Krogan, Salarians and Humans have the EXACT same mental capabilites? They might be close. But they are not exactly the same.

Doesn't matter. We're not "fully sapient" by comparison.

[Steelcan]

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

So if Krogan aren't quite on par with humans for example, they are not "fully sapient"?
What if the Salarians were to base it on their ability to think, and decided we weren't "fully sapient"?

Also, if it wasn't for the Starchild reveal, this logic would totally have justified the Reapers slaughtering us, as we wouldn't be "fully sapient" either.

Krogan are on par with humans, as are salarians, their minds just work faster.

And the reapers would not be justified, we pose no threat to them.  The geth were a threat to the quarians

LOL, do you really think that Krogan, Salarians and Humans have the EXACT same mental capabilites? They might be close. But they are not exactly the same.

Doesn't matter. We're not "fully sapient" by comparison.

Not exactly the same, but close enough for it to be a valid threshold.

[KingZayd]

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

So if Krogan aren't quite on par with humans for example, they are not "fully sapient"?
What if the Salarians were to base it on their ability to think, and decided we weren't "fully sapient"?

Also, if it wasn't for the Starchild reveal, this logic would totally have justified the Reapers slaughtering us, as we wouldn't be "fully sapient" either.

Krogan are on par with humans, as are salarians, their minds just work faster.

And the reapers would not be justified, we pose no threat to them.  The geth were a threat to the quarians

LOL, do you really think that Krogan, Salarians and Humans have the EXACT same mental capabilites? They might be close. But they are not exactly the same.

Doesn't matter. We're not "fully sapient" by comparison.

Not exactly the same, but close enough for it to be a valid threshold.

There's a good chance (let's say 50%, to be unprejudiced), that the Krogans would be slightly below that threshold. Let's say it's equally likely for the Salarians to be slightly below that threshold.

Modifié par KingZayd, 06 décembre 2012 - 03:51 .

[Steelcan]

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

So if Krogan aren't quite on par with humans for example, they are not "fully sapient"?
What if the Salarians were to base it on their ability to think, and decided we weren't "fully sapient"?

Also, if it wasn't for the Starchild reveal, this logic would totally have justified the Reapers slaughtering us, as we wouldn't be "fully sapient" either.

Krogan are on par with humans, as are salarians, their minds just work faster.

And the reapers would not be justified, we pose no threat to them.  The geth were a threat to the quarians

LOL, do you really think that Krogan, Salarians and Humans have the EXACT same mental capabilites? They might be close. But they are not exactly the same.

Doesn't matter. We're not "fully sapient" by comparison.

Not exactly the same, but close enough for it to be a valid threshold.

There's a good chance (let's say 50%, to be unprejudiced), that the Krogans would be slightly below that threshold. Let's say it's equally likely for the Salarians to be slightly below that threshold.

You mean above?  And yeah, lets go with that, works for me

[KingZayd]

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

So if Krogan aren't quite on par with humans for example, they are not "fully sapient"?
What if the Salarians were to base it on their ability to think, and decided we weren't "fully sapient"?

Also, if it wasn't for the Starchild reveal, this logic would totally have justified the Reapers slaughtering us, as we wouldn't be "fully sapient" either.

Krogan are on par with humans, as are salarians, their minds just work faster.

And the reapers would not be justified, we pose no threat to them.  The geth were a threat to the quarians

LOL, do you really think that Krogan, Salarians and Humans have the EXACT same mental capabilites? They might be close. But they are not exactly the same.

Doesn't matter. We're not "fully sapient" by comparison.

Not exactly the same, but close enough for it to be a valid threshold.

There's a good chance (let's say 50%, to be unprejudiced), that the Krogans would be slightly below that threshold. Let's say it's equally likely for the Salarians to be slightly below that threshold.

You mean above?  And yeah, lets go with that, works for me

No, below. But since we're going with 50% the end result is the same.

Therefore it's quite possible that a bunch of these races are not "fully sapient".

And it's equally likely that according to the same bunch, we are not "fully sapient".

At the end of the day we have to come to a conclusion: Genocide is okay!

Modifié par KingZayd, 06 décembre 2012 - 03:57 .

[Steelcan]

KingZayd wrote...

No, below. But since we're going with 50% the end result is the same.

Therefore it's quite possible that a bunch of these races are not "fully sapient".

And it's equally likely that according to the same bunch, we are not "fully sapient".

At the end of the day we have to come to a conclusion: Genocide is okay!

Sure why not/

[KingZayd]

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

No, below. But since we're going with 50% the end result is the same.

Therefore it's quite possible that a bunch of these races are not "fully sapient".

And it's equally likely that according to the same bunch, we are not "fully sapient".

At the end of the day we have to come to a conclusion: Genocide is okay!

Sure why not/

I think that we just found a justification for the 99.83%

Because instead of choosing individual sapience as important, the Geth can look at it from a collective sapience point of view, and deem that all other races are not fully sapient. 

Modifié par KingZayd, 06 décembre 2012 - 04:01 .

[Steelcan]

Well this conversation was certainly..... interesting.

Steelcan out

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

Even though the morning war was the quarians fault, and there were those that needed to be punished, murdering nearly the entire quarian race is no excuse and that definitely is not merely (self-defense) even if the initial conflict was justified.

Also I will never let the quarians die because 1: Tali and 2: Quarians have the potential to be awesome in future games.

[CmdrPwn]

ForThessia wrote...

The Geth are not innocent in the slightest and I kill them every time on Rannoch. You don't come that close to killing off an entire people and get to play the victim card. That and their constant aligning with reapers made the choice very simple for me.

Exactly!  I always kill them on Rannoch.  They're just machines with no souls and constantly align with the reapers to kill me (I don't have this problem with the Quarians).  So fck the geth.

Modifié par Cdr. Pwn, 06 décembre 2012 - 05:07 .

[Cadeym]

Does it really matter how many the Geth killed? Had I been a Geth I would have exterminated the Quarians without a second though.

The person starting the conflict is always the guilty part. Killing another person in self-defense may be murder... but it is still self-defense.

EDIT

Self-defense extends up untill the point where the life that was threatenend is no longer in any danger.

Modifié par Mouseraider, 06 décembre 2012 - 05:19 .

[DeinonSlayer]

Mouseraider wrote...

Does it really matter how many the Geth killed? Had I been a Geth I would have exterminated the Quarians without a second though.

The person starting the conflict is always the guilty part. Killing another person in self-defense may be murder... but it is still self-defense.

EDIT

Self-defense extends up untill the point where the life that was threatenend is no longer in any danger.

How many innocent people can one justifiably kill before it would have been morally better to allow one's self to be destroyed?

[Ranger Jack Walker]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Mouseraider wrote...

Does it really matter how many the Geth killed? Had I been a Geth I would have exterminated the Quarians without a second though.

The person starting the conflict is always the guilty part. Killing another person in self-defense may be murder... but it is still self-defense.

EDIT

Self-defense extends up untill the point where the life that was threatenend is no longer in any danger.

How many innocent people can one justifiably kill before it would have been morally better to allow one's self to be destroyed?

When those 'innocent people' are still trying to kill you? I'd say it's pretty damn justified.

[DeinonSlayer]

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Mouseraider wrote...

Does it really matter how many the Geth killed? Had I been a Geth I would have exterminated the Quarians without a second though.

The person starting the conflict is always the guilty part. Killing another person in self-defense may be murder... but it is still self-defense.

EDIT

Self-defense extends up untill the point where the life that was threatenend is no longer in any danger.

How many innocent people can one justifiably kill before it would have been morally better to allow one's self to be destroyed?

When those 'innocent people' are still trying to kill you? I'd say it's pretty damn justified.

And when they're not?

[Ranger Jack Walker]

When they weren't they were allowed to retreat.

[sw04ca]

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...
When they weren't they were allowed to retreat.

Except for the billions who weren't.

[saintjimmy43]

the geth killed everyone they thought was a threat. which was, apparently 99.83 percent of the population. blame the quarians for giving them ****ty threat analysis matrices.

[HTTP 404]

Pantanplan wrote...

I choose peace everytime in Rannoch, and I like Legion's character, but you can't deny the fact that the geth slaughtered billions of innocents. They are presented as innocent and looking for guidance, and that the quarians are 100% responsible, but really, only 17 million quarians were left after the Morning War. Nothing, and I repeat, nothing justifies such slaughter. To all of you who support the geth and Legion's version of their history: how are the geth innocent and lost children, while the quarians the aggressive instigators who deserve genocide?
Beforethe Reaper code upload the geth were indvidual VI-like programs who only gained intelligence by grouping together. The quarians have families, children, civilians while the geth have none of this. When peace isn't an option, why do some save the geth and let the quarians die?

forgiveness

[Ranger Jack Walker]

sw04ca wrote...

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...
When they weren't they were allowed to retreat.

Except for the billions who weren't.

The quarians were under martial law. You know what usually happens when Martial law and War are involved?

Conscription. Non-combatants would very quickly be a minority.

[Cadeym]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Mouseraider wrote...

Does it really matter how many the Geth killed? Had I been a Geth I would have exterminated the Quarians without a second though.

The person starting the conflict is always the guilty part. Killing another person in self-defense may be murder... but it is still self-defense.

EDIT

Self-defense extends up untill the point where the life that was threatenend is no longer in any danger.

How many innocent people can one justifiably kill before it would have been morally better to allow one's self to be destroyed?

Well that is ofcourse up to the individual to decide. I personally think that all life is invaluable. But we don't know how many of their own the Quarians killed. Some were afterall attempting to save or protect the Geth.

The Geth being a subserving race would probably have attempted to either avenge or prevent the death of the Quarians who were on their side. So they would technically still be in the right, aslong as they didn't kill unarmed non-combatants.

Modifié par Mouseraider, 06 décembre 2012 - 05:39 .

[DeinonSlayer]

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

sw04ca wrote...

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...
When they weren't they were allowed to retreat.

Except for the billions who weren't.

The quarians were under martial law. You know what usually happens when Martial law and War are involved?

Conscription. Non-combatants would very quickly be a minority.

Reality check.

Today, Israel is the only nation on the planet that has compulsory military service for both men and women. Including reserves, their military makes up 7.75% of the total population. Throw in those who are not military, but are fit to fight (potential draftees), and you bring that total up to 35%. These figures come from Wikipedia.

Assuming the Quarians were militarized to the same degree, that means they could muster up to 35% of their population to fight. 35% is not 99%.

[KingZayd]

sw04ca wrote...

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...
When they weren't they were allowed to retreat.

Except for the billions who weren't.

what billions of innocents?