1059 réponses à ce sujet

[KingZayd]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

sw04ca wrote...

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...
When they weren't they were allowed to retreat.

Except for the billions who weren't.

The quarians were under martial law. You know what usually happens when Martial law and War are involved?

Conscription. Non-combatants would very quickly be a minority.

Reality check.

Today, Israel is the only nation on the planet that has compulsory military service for both men and women. Including reserves, their military makes up 7.75% of the total population. Throw in those who are not military, but are fit to fight (potential draftees), and you bring that total up to 35%. These figures come from Wikipedia.

Assuming the Quarians were militarized to the same degree, that means they could muster up to 35% of their population to fight. 35% is not 99%.

Define "fit to fight"

[SeptimusMagistos]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

How many innocent people can one justifiably kill before it would have been morally better to allow one's self to be destroyed?

Apparently the geth opinion on this started out at zero.

Which leads me to believe that Legion's statement about quarians attacking every time they felt victory was possible has some foundation in the Morning War.

[Ranger Jack Walker]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

sw04ca wrote...

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...
When they weren't they were allowed to retreat.

Except for the billions who weren't.

The quarians were under martial law. You know what usually happens when Martial law and War are involved?

Conscription. Non-combatants would very quickly be a minority.

Reality check.

Today, Israel is the only nation on the planet that has compulsory military service for both men and women. Including reserves, their military makes up 7.75% of the total population. Throw in those who are not military, but are fit to fight (potential draftees), and you bring that total up to 35%. These figures come from Wikipedia.

Assuming the Quarians were militarized to the same degree, that means they could muster up to 35% of their population to fight. 35% is not 99%.

Applying exact numbers from today's world is kind of stupid really. But the quarians were no match for the Geth. As they were losing the war, it's reasonable to assume that more and more non-combatants became involved in the war directly.

Look no further than in ME3 where even the civilian ships became militarized. At that moment they ceased to be non-combatants. If the same kind of philosophy war follwed in the Morning War, then there were literally  ZERO non combatants on the quarian side.

[sw04ca]

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

sw04ca wrote...

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...
When they weren't they were allowed to retreat.

Except for the billions who weren't.

The quarians were under martial law. You know what usually happens when Martial law and War are involved?

Conscription. Non-combatants would very quickly be a minority.

Nope.  Even if you conscript everyone suitable to fight, you still end up with children and those who care for them, the elderly, various workers who can't be spared for military service, the crippled or insane and pregnant females.  You can't just press everyone into military service and maintain a functioning society.  The quarians aren't hunter-gatherers.

[sw04ca]

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...
Look no further than in ME3 where even the civilian ships became militarized. At that moment they ceased to be non-combatants. If the same kind of philosophy war follwed in the Morning War, then there were literally  ZERO non combatants on the quarian side.

A baby can't hold a gun, but the geth still shot them.

[KingZayd]

sw04ca wrote...

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

sw04ca wrote...

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...
When they weren't they were allowed to retreat.

Except for the billions who weren't.

The quarians were under martial law. You know what usually happens when Martial law and War are involved?

Conscription. Non-combatants would very quickly be a minority.

Nope.  Even if you conscript everyone suitable to fight, you still end up with children and those who care for them, the elderly, various workers who can't be spared for military service, the crippled or insane and pregnant females.  You can't just press everyone into military service and maintain a functioning society.  The quarians aren't hunter-gatherers.

Yes, and where were the combatants holed up? Did they keep themselves away from the civillians? What makes you think the civillians were targeted?

[KingZayd]

sw04ca wrote...

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...
Look no further than in ME3 where even the civilian ships became militarized. At that moment they ceased to be non-combatants. If the same kind of philosophy war follwed in the Morning War, then there were literally  ZERO non combatants on the quarian side.

A baby can't hold a gun, but the geth still shot them.

Evidence that Geth shot babies?

Games seem to suggest chemical weapons were used. Meaning civillians might not have actually been targeted at any point.

[DeinonSlayer]

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

sw04ca wrote...

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...
When they weren't they were allowed to retreat.

Except for the billions who weren't.

The quarians were under martial law. You know what usually happens when Martial law and War are involved?

Conscription. Non-combatants would very quickly be a minority.

Reality check.

Today, Israel is the only nation on the planet that has compulsory military service for both men and women. Including reserves, their military makes up 7.75% of the total population. Throw in those who are not military, but are fit to fight (potential draftees), and you bring that total up to 35%. These figures come from Wikipedia.

Assuming the Quarians were militarized to the same degree, that means they could muster up to 35% of their population to fight. 35% is not 99%.

Applying exact numbers from today's world is kind of stupid really. But the quarians were no match for the Geth. As they were losing the war, it's reasonable to assume that more and more non-combatants became involved in the war directly.

Look no further than in ME3 where even the civilian ships became militarized. At that moment they ceased to be non-combatants. If the same kind of philosophy war follwed in the Morning War, then there were literally  ZERO non combatants on the quarian side.

This is simple demographics. You seem to want to pretend that EVERY quarian the Geth killed had a rifle in his or her hands, but population demographics do not allow for it. Additionally, they weren't on ships during the morning war - what "similar circumstances" would apply in a ground war?

Most of the civilian ships were armed long before the renewed conflict in order to defend themselves from pirate attack, per the codex. Should they not have been?

[sw04ca]

KingZayd wrote...
Yes, and where were the combatants holed up? Did they keep themselves away from the civillians? What makes you think the civillians were targeted?

Because of the enormous death rate.  I get the concept of collateral damage, but you don't exterminate over 99% of a huge population of sapients by accident.

Besides, the geth are the villains in ME games.  They were the goons in ME1, they were a supporting cast of  villains in ME2, and they're working with the Reapers again in ME3.  Is is so hard to believe that they're the bad guys, when they've been the bad guys for the whole trilogy?

[justafan]

KingZayd wrote...

sw04ca wrote...

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...
Look no further than in ME3 where even the civilian ships became militarized. At that moment they ceased to be non-combatants. If the same kind of philosophy war follwed in the Morning War, then there were literally  ZERO non combatants on the quarian side.

A baby can't hold a gun, but the geth still shot them.

Evidence that Geth shot babies?

Games seem to suggest chemical weapons were used. Meaning civillians might not have actually been targeted at any point.

Sorry, but a "Weapon of Mass Destruction" as in the chemical weapons that make an entire planet toxic, are not used when you want to descriminate your targets.

And how does the use of chemical weapons imply anything OTHER than indiscriminate slaughter.

Modifié par justafan, 06 décembre 2012 - 06:03 .

[Stakrin]

Pantanplan wrote...

I choose peace everytime in Rannoch, and I like Legion's character, but you can't deny the fact that the geth slaughtered billions of innocents. They are presented as innocent and looking for guidance, and that the quarians are 100% responsible, but really, only 17 million quarians were left after the Morning War. Nothing, and I repeat, nothing justifies such slaughter. To all of you who support the geth and Legion's version of their history: how are the geth innocent and lost children, while the quarians the aggressive instigators who deserve genocide?
Beforethe Reaper code upload the geth were indvidual VI-like programs who only gained intelligence by grouping together. The quarians have families, children, civilians while the geth have none of this. When peace isn't an option, why do some save the geth and let the quarians die?

I LOVE that you say all of this. I felt like I was always supposed to question this, wondering if the Reapers always had a hand in the Geth's actions, or that the Geth are not as trustworthy as we all want them to be. What if Legions platform was created to be so advanced, to trick Shepard into making peace for their time, or eliminate the Quarians, and make them look justified. 

[HTTP 404]

I do find it curious that it is a renegade option to save the quarians and a paragon option to save the geth....

[sw04ca]

KingZayd wrote...
Evidence that Geth shot babies?

Games seem to suggest chemical weapons were used. Meaning civillians might not have actually been targeted at any point.

There was clearly some level of discrimination, as Rannoch's biosphere was repairable.  The geth committed genocide, not biocide.  They didn't just poison the entire planet.  It seems that the geth prefer guns, as those are the weapons we see them using during the depredations throughout the trilogy.

[justafan]

HTTP 404 wrote...

I do find it curious that it is a renegade option to save the quarians and a paragon option to save the geth....

While true the options are on the top and bottom right, neither decision will net you any paragon/renegade points.

Modifié par justafan, 06 décembre 2012 - 06:05 .

[DeinonSlayer]

HTTP 404 wrote...

I do find it curious that it is a renegade option to save the quarians and a paragon option to save the geth....

No paragon or renegade points are awarded for either choice. Shepard can offer multiple rationale for the decision back on the Normandy afterwards, whichever choice was taken.

[KingZayd]

sw04ca wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
Yes, and where were the combatants holed up? Did they keep themselves away from the civillians? What makes you think the civillians were targeted?

Because of the enormous death rate.  I get the concept of collateral damage, but you don't exterminate over 99% of a huge population of sapients by accident.

Besides, the geth are the villains in ME games.  They were the goons in ME1, they were a supporting cast of  villains in ME2, and they're working with the Reapers again in ME3.  Is is so hard to believe that they're the bad guys, when they've been the bad guys for the whole trilogy?

You do if you're using a weapon that kills everyone just the same.. chemical weapons for example.

[KingZayd]

sw04ca wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
Evidence that Geth shot babies?

Games seem to suggest chemical weapons were used. Meaning civillians might not have actually been targeted at any point.

There was clearly some level of discrimination, as Rannoch's biosphere was repairable.  The geth committed genocide, not biocide.  They didn't just poison the entire planet.  It seems that the geth prefer guns, as those are the weapons we see them using during the depredations throughout the trilogy.

How long did it take for Rannoch to be repaired? What if the chemical weapons only targeted Quarians? The fact that they have been reparing the biosphere, could also mean that the Geth no longer think chemical weapons are the best thing to use. Even if they're very effective.

Modifié par KingZayd, 06 décembre 2012 - 06:05 .

[sw04ca]

KingZayd wrote...

sw04ca wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
Yes, and where were the combatants holed up? Did they keep themselves away from the civillians? What makes you think the civillians were targeted?

Because of the enormous death rate.  I get the concept of collateral damage, but you don't exterminate over 99% of a huge population of sapients by accident.

Besides, the geth are the villains in ME games.  They were the goons in ME1, they were a supporting cast of  villains in ME2, and they're working with the Reapers again in ME3.  Is is so hard to believe that they're the bad guys, when they've been the bad guys for the whole trilogy?

You do if you're using a weapon that kills everyone just the same.. chemical weapons for example.

I think you're overestimating the effectiveness of chemical weapons against a well-prepared adversary.  In fact, given proper NBC precautions, which the quarians almost certainly had, then the only point of chemical weapons is to cause civilian casualties.

[Ranger Jack Walker]

While Paragon/Renegade points aren't awarded, saving the Geth involves a Paragon prompt (that does nothing) while saving the Quarians involves several renegade prompts which is essentially, executing Legion for trying to save his species. Even how they are [resented is important. It's not saving the Geth or saving the Quarians. It's saving the Geth or wiping them out. Shepard still feels sorry and even says so while saving the Geth but the other option is essentially a "F*** You!" to the Geth.

Even if they aren't labelled as such, it''s pretty clear that saving the Geth is supposed to be paragon while wiping them out is renegade.Peace, ofcourse, is the ideal option.

[KingZayd]

sw04ca wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

sw04ca wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
Yes, and where were the combatants holed up? Did they keep themselves away from the civillians? What makes you think the civillians were targeted?

Because of the enormous death rate.  I get the concept of collateral damage, but you don't exterminate over 99% of a huge population of sapients by accident.

Besides, the geth are the villains in ME games.  They were the goons in ME1, they were a supporting cast of  villains in ME2, and they're working with the Reapers again in ME3.  Is is so hard to believe that they're the bad guys, when they've been the bad guys for the whole trilogy?

You do if you're using a weapon that kills everyone just the same.. chemical weapons for example.

I think you're overestimating the effectiveness of chemical weapons against a well-prepared adversary.  In fact, given proper NBC precautions, which the quarians almost certainly had, then the only point of chemical weapons is to cause civilian casualties.

What evidence do we have for the Quarians being "well-prepared" for a chemical attack?

[DeinonSlayer]

sw04ca wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

sw04ca wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
Yes, and where were the combatants holed up? Did they keep themselves away from the civillians? What makes you think the civillians were targeted?

Because of the enormous death rate.  I get the concept of collateral damage, but you don't exterminate over 99% of a huge population of sapients by accident.

Besides, the geth are the villains in ME games.  They were the goons in ME1, they were a supporting cast of  villains in ME2, and they're working with the Reapers again in ME3.  Is is so hard to believe that they're the bad guys, when they've been the bad guys for the whole trilogy?

You do if you're using a weapon that kills everyone just the same.. chemical weapons for example.

I think you're overestimating the effectiveness of chemical weapons against a well-prepared adversary.  In fact, given proper NBC precautions, which the quarians almost certainly had, then the only point of chemical weapons is to cause civilian casualties.

Explains where the suits first came from.

Food for thought.

[justafan]

KingZayd wrote...

sw04ca wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

You do if you're using a weapon that kills everyone just the same.. chemical weapons for example.

I think you're overestimating the effectiveness of chemical weapons against a well-prepared adversary.  In fact, given proper NBC precautions, which the quarians almost certainly had, then the only point of chemical weapons is to cause civilian casualties.

What evidence do we have for the Quarians being "well-prepared" for a chemical attack?

All those enviro-suits had to come from somewhere.

^

That is actually a really scary thought.

Modifié par justafan, 06 décembre 2012 - 06:12 .

[KingZayd]

justafan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

sw04ca wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

sw04ca wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
Yes, and where were the combatants holed up? Did they keep themselves away from the civillians? What makes you think the civillians were targeted?

Because of the enormous death rate.  I get the concept of collateral damage, but you don't exterminate over 99% of a huge population of sapients by accident.

Besides, the geth are the villains in ME games.  They were the goons in ME1, they were a supporting cast of  villains in ME2, and they're working with the Reapers again in ME3.  Is is so hard to believe that they're the bad guys, when they've been the bad guys for the whole trilogy?

You do if you're using a weapon that kills everyone just the same.. chemical weapons for example.

I think you're overestimating the effectiveness of chemical weapons against a well-prepared adversary.  In fact, given proper NBC precautions, which the quarians almost certainly had, then the only point of chemical weapons is to cause civilian casualties.

What evidence do we have for the Quarians being "well-prepared" for a chemical attack?

All those enviro-suits had to come from somewhere.

^

They built them when they needed them.

Modifié par KingZayd, 06 décembre 2012 - 06:12 .

[sw04ca]

KingZayd wrote...
How long did it take for Rannoch to be repaired? What if the chemical weapons only targeted Quarians? The fact that they have been reparing the biosphere, could also mean that the Geth no longer think chemical weapons are the best thing to use. Even if they're very effective.

Several hundred years.  But the fact that it was hundreds and not hundreds of thousands means that the biosphere wasn't massively damaged.  At the same time, the fact that the geth have been cleaning up the biosphere indicates that whatever they used wasn't tailored to only damage quarians.

[KingZayd]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

sw04ca wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

sw04ca wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
Yes, and where were the combatants holed up? Did they keep themselves away from the civillians? What makes you think the civillians were targeted?

Because of the enormous death rate.  I get the concept of collateral damage, but you don't exterminate over 99% of a huge population of sapients by accident.

Besides, the geth are the villains in ME games.  They were the goons in ME1, they were a supporting cast of  villains in ME2, and they're working with the Reapers again in ME3.  Is is so hard to believe that they're the bad guys, when they've been the bad guys for the whole trilogy?

You do if you're using a weapon that kills everyone just the same.. chemical weapons for example.

I think you're overestimating the effectiveness of chemical weapons against a well-prepared adversary.  In fact, given proper NBC precautions, which the quarians almost certainly had, then the only point of chemical weapons is to cause civilian casualties.

Explains where the suits first came from.

Food for thought.

Explains how the 17 million survived?
Food for thought?