1059 réponses à ce sujet

[Pantanplan]

KingZayd wrote...

Pantanplan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Pantanplan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Pantanplan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

It would have been 100% if the war had gone the other way.

The geth have no civilians, no children, and no complex emotional bonds. There isn't really a comparison.

The Geth were ALL civilians at the start. They were all basically children. You're right, The extinction of the Quarians is completely different.

They were not children, nor civilians. They were low-intelligence programs that eventually grouped together and gained rudimentary intelligence. When you watch the Terminator do you sympathize with the humans or Skynet?

How were they not civilians? How were they "mature"?
I sympathise with the innocent humans who are being targeted. Why do we like Arnie in Terminator 2? He is one of the scum, isn't he?

In Terminator: Sarah Chronicles though, it is not quite so simple. There are AIs who don't want to serve Skynet, nor humanity.

They were basically highly advanced VIs. You can't compare their intelligence to that of children. And no, there were no geth "civilians", since to start such a war the geth consensus would have to agree on it. The consensus is every geth, so there you go, the geth are 100% resposnible for the near-genocide of the quarians.

The Quarians started the war, and there was no consensus at that point. Which is why all platforms were acting individually. Some voluntarily went to their termination, others allowed themselves to be protected by Quarian sympathisers. Others fought for themselves and others. The Consensus probably devloped in the war.

If they don't have intelligence, they cannot be blamed for the genocide. You can't have it both ways.

You can blame them of commiting genocide, just not intentionally (manslaughtercide?...). The fact is, at the time of the Morning War, they were ruthless, precise and unintelligent machines that wiped out as many quarians as they could. They could have fought only members of the quarian military, or just kill the quarians who were trying to kill them (that's actually more logical and "robot-like"). But no. They intentionally killed billions of people who did nothing to threaten them.

[Wulfram]

The Geth are merciless, not cruel, so I'd speculate the Geth did not have a deliberate policy to maximise civilian casualties, but that they did use some form of biological or chemical warfare to wipe out the Quarian forces opposing them on Rannoch - such a weapon that could specifically target organics and operate on a wide scale would be a logical choice - and the civilians were collateral damage because those weapons couldn't discriminate.

We can condemn the Geth fairly enough for this, but you can't say this is even beyond the human norm as a length that they were willing to go to preserve their existence, considering the policy of nuclear destruction which dominated foreign policy in the 2nd half of the 20th century.

Modifié par Wulfram, 04 décembre 2012 - 07:28 .

[Giantdeathrobot]

Methinks the writers themselves kinda lost track of it. The casualties are impossible to attain short of a methodicaal eextermination campaign. At some point it stops being a war. Yet no mention of so many deaths is made. It kinda explains how bloodthirsty Gerrel is, however.

It's very possible that the Geth didn't see the individual cost at all, too. For them, it was the fight of a collective against another. Anything goes until one is gone. The fact that the Quarian collective was composed of non-combatants and children didn't factor into the equation, I'd wager. Not that it justifies the attempted genocide, but there you go.

[KingZayd]

Pantanplan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Pantanplan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Pantanplan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Pantanplan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

It would have been 100% if the war had gone the other way.

The geth have no civilians, no children, and no complex emotional bonds. There isn't really a comparison.

The Geth were ALL civilians at the start. They were all basically children. You're right, The extinction of the Quarians is completely different.

They were not children, nor civilians. They were low-intelligence programs that eventually grouped together and gained rudimentary intelligence. When you watch the Terminator do you sympathize with the humans or Skynet?

How were they not civilians? How were they "mature"?
I sympathise with the innocent humans who are being targeted. Why do we like Arnie in Terminator 2? He is one of the scum, isn't he?

In Terminator: Sarah Chronicles though, it is not quite so simple. There are AIs who don't want to serve Skynet, nor humanity.

They were basically highly advanced VIs. You can't compare their intelligence to that of children. And no, there were no geth "civilians", since to start such a war the geth consensus would have to agree on it. The consensus is every geth, so there you go, the geth are 100% resposnible for the near-genocide of the quarians.

The Quarians started the war, and there was no consensus at that point. Which is why all platforms were acting individually. Some voluntarily went to their termination, others allowed themselves to be protected by Quarian sympathisers. Others fought for themselves and others. The Consensus probably devloped in the war.

If they don't have intelligence, they cannot be blamed for the genocide. You can't have it both ways.

You can blame them of commiting genocide, just not intentionally (manslaughtercide?...). The fact is, at the time of the Morning War, they were ruthless, precise and unintelligent machines that wiped out as many quarians as they could. They could have fought only members of the quarian military, or just kill the quarians who were trying to kill them (that's actually more logical and "robot-like"). But no. They intentionally killed billions of people who did nothing to threaten them.

Which is exactly what the Quarians tried to do. And it wasn't billions. There is no evidence to suggest that billions of Quarians were civillians.

Quite unfair that if they get killed, it doesn't really matter, but it's only bad if they do the killing.

[Wulfram]

It's possible that considerably more than 16 million Quarians fled the Morning War, and that population only represents what was a sustainable population on a fugitive fleet.

[Steelcan]

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

But when you decide to upload the code you are killing millions of innocents. Millions. Almost as good as your geth friends who managed billions

Evidence that billions of them were innocent? Some of the billions.
Evidence that millions of the Quarians are innocent? Some of the millions.

Your Quarian friends tried (and failed) to exterminate all the Geth, who were innocent at the time.

. It is reasonable to say that about 75% were noncombatants.  Women, children, elderly, etc...  All the geth designed for combat, that is straight from their war asset description.

[KingZayd]

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

But when you decide to upload the code you are killing millions of innocents. Millions. Almost as good as your geth friends who managed billions

Evidence that billions of them were innocent? Some of the billions.
Evidence that millions of the Quarians are innocent? Some of the millions.

Your Quarian friends tried (and failed) to exterminate all the Geth, who were innocent at the time.

. It is reasonable to say that about 75% were noncombatants.  Women, children, elderly, etc...  All the geth designed for combat, that is straight from their war asset description.

And why do you make the assumption that women weren't combatants? Or how many of them were children/elderly? How many of them armed themselves in the war?

All the geth are designed for combat... NOW. After the first war.

How do you know that the Quarian millitary weren't with the innocents, and that the innocents died from millitary positions being bombed?

Modifié par KingZayd, 04 décembre 2012 - 07:34 .

[Pantanplan]

Giantdeathrobot wrote...

Methinks the writers themselves kinda lost track of it. The casualties are impossible to attain short of a methodicaal eextermination campaign. At some point it stops being a war. Yet no mention of so many deaths is made. It kinda explains how bloodthirsty Gerrel is, however.

It's very possible that the Geth didn't see the individual cost at all, too. For them, it was the fight of a collective against another. Anything goes until one is gone. The fact that the Quarian collective was composed of non-combatants and children didn't factor into the equation, I'd wager. Not that it justifies the attempted genocide, but there you go.

I think you're right. The fact that billions of quarians died is rarely (or never, now that I think about it) mentioned in the games makes me think the writers probably wanted to make the geth-quarian war a minor rebellion that led to the quarians getting exiled, but started messing up the lore and created this brutal genocide.

[shodiswe]

We don't know how many Quarrians there were to begin with, from the description of their homeorld most of it was uninhabitable except for a few riverdeltas.

Also we don't know how many got killed by their own government, apparently Quarrians killed Quarrians aswell.

Maybe there wern't more than a hundred million Quarrians to start with, given that their planet couldn't possibly support a massive population. They still call that hunk of rock and dessert home though.

If you look at the statistics of how many Humans we have had on earth you will notice that the current amount of "humans" is abnormal... It's like an exploding petridish crashing it's own ecosystem.

It looks like we are heading towards what was said to have happend to the Drell... Over population and then "one more dead planet".

Modifié par shodiswe, 04 décembre 2012 - 07:34 .

[DeinonSlayer]

"The Geth killed billions and forced my people from our homeworld. Most Quarians believe we have paid properly for our mistake."
- Tali, in an ME1 elevator conversation

According to Legion in ME2, enough "toxins" were used in the Morning War to necessitate a three-century cleanup effort. The timestamps in the Consensus mission tell us the war lasted a single year.

Make no mistake: this was an extermination. You couldn't achieve that kind of death rate in that timeframe by dropping an asteroid on the planet.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 04 décembre 2012 - 07:36 .

[Steelcan]

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
It is reasonable to say that about 75% were noncombatants.  Women, children, elderly, etc...  All the geth designed for combat, that is straight from their war asset description.

And why do you make the assumption that women weren't combatants? Or how many of them were children/elderly? How many of them armed themselves in the war?

All the geth are designed for combat... NOW. After the first war.

. Like I said, 75% is a reasonable estimate.  And billions dead in one year not much time to arm the population.

[KingZayd]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

According to Legion in ME2, enough "toxins" were used in the Morning War to necessitate a three-century cleanup effort. The timestamps in the Consensus mission tell us the war lasted a single year.

Make no mistake: this was an extermination. You couldn't achieve that kind of death rate in that timeframe by dropping an asteroid on the planet.

An extermination vs an extermination.
Why do the Quarians get off easily, and the Geth don't?

[KingZayd]

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
It is reasonable to say that about 75% were noncombatants.  Women, children, elderly, etc...  All the geth designed for combat, that is straight from their war asset description.

And why do you make the assumption that women weren't combatants? Or how many of them were children/elderly? How many of them armed themselves in the war?

All the geth are designed for combat... NOW. After the first war.

. Like I said, 75% is a reasonable estimate.  And billions dead in one year not much time to arm the population.

Like I asked, why is 75% a reasonable estimate?

How do you know it's not like in the US, or indeed the Mass Effect universe where we see most people have weapons already?

[Beclab]

Are you comparing synthetics with organics ?

Organics have feelings,hopes and feeling pain.But synthetics... Thy are just machine.

[Steelcan]

shodiswe wrote...

We don't know how many Quarrians there were to begin with, from the description of their homeorld most of it was uninhabitable except for a few riverdeltas.

Also we don't know how many got killed by their own government, apparently Quarrians killed Quarrians aswell.

Maybe there wern't more than a hundred million Quarrians to start with, given that their planet couldn't possibly support a massive population. They still call that hunk of rock and dessert home though.

If you look at the statistics of how many Humans we have had on earth you will notice that the current amount of "humans" is abnormal... It's like an exploding petridish crashing it's own ecosystem.

It looks like we are heading towards what was said to have happend to the Drell... Over population and then "one more dead planet".

. There were billions of quarians, not hundreds of millions.

[Pantanplan]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

According to Legion in ME2, enough "toxins" were used in the Morning War to necessitate a three-century cleanup effort. The timestamps in the Consensus mission tell us the war lasted a single year.

Make no mistake: this was an extermination. You couldn't achieve that kind of death rate in that timeframe by dropping an asteroid on the planet.

Geth sympathizers would argue with you on this point by saying that the toxins were released by the quarians, who didn't care about how many of their own civilians they would kill (that's right, make the quarians look like monsters once again). But I agree with you. And damn, I didn't know the war lasted only a year. I thought it was like decades or so. Oh well, this goes on to prove my point even more.

[KingZayd]

Beclab wrote...

Are you comparing synthetics with organics ?

Organics have feelings,hopes and feeling pain.But synthetics... Thy are just machine.

And carbon-based life forms can have feeling, hope and pain but others can't.. why exactly?

Organics are machines too. Just self (plus mother)-assembling.

Modifié par KingZayd, 04 décembre 2012 - 07:37 .

[DeinonSlayer]

KingZayd wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

According to Legion in ME2, enough "toxins" were used in the Morning War to necessitate a three-century cleanup effort. The timestamps in the Consensus mission tell us the war lasted a single year.

Make no mistake: this was an extermination. You couldn't achieve that kind of death rate in that timeframe by dropping an asteroid on the planet.

An extermination vs an extermination.
Why do the Quarians get off easily, and the Geth don't?

The Quarians who attempted it in the first place have been dead for generations. The Geth who committed it are still alive. Would we forgive an Asari who murdered a bunch of Salarians, just because she evaded justice and outlived a couple generations of her victims' families?

[Steelcan]

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
. Like I said, 75% is a reasonable estimate.  And billions dead in one year not much time to arm the population.

Like I asked, why is 75% a reasonable estimate?

How do you know it's not like in the US, or indeed the Mass Effect universe where we see most people have weapons already?

. Because the amount of people eligible for the draft in America right now sits at about 15% all male, double that for women.

[Tymathee]

the geth weren't presented positively but until ME3 their story wasn't told, they were just the bad guys.

I see both sides but I always destroy the Geth because twice they sided with the Reapers instead of just choosing peace, maybe surrender, try to make peace instead of fighting back. If you put down your weapons maybe the Quarians choose to work with the Geth instead of destroying them but they don't.

[justafan]

Why does everyone keep using "Geth" as a plural term when they are really referring to a singular entity. The Geth only gain sentience through consensus, thus there is only one Geth mind. That mind made the decision to slaughter billions (we know this because Tali says "billions" in ME1) of lifeforms in the span of a year (which we know from the consensus mission).

Justified or not, every Geth program in existence shares responsibility for what happened. Now we don't know all the details, and all we see are altered video clips shown to us by the Geth themselves. But it is quite clear that there was a point at which the Geth began to kill indiscriminately, people don't use biological weapons against machines.

[Beclab]

KingZayd wrote...

Beclab wrote...

Are you comparing synthetics with organics ?

Organics have feelings,hopes and feeling pain.But synthetics... Thy are just machine.

And carbon-based life forms can have feeling, hope and pain but others can't.. why exactly?

Organics are machines too. Just self (plus mother)-assembling.

Synthetics just have purposes not emotions. Those feeling I talked before comes with the soul, and I dont believe synthetics have souls.

[Silcron]

to me it just seems the geth are playing wiht both sides of the war (reapers and the rest). We have some geth we call to the public "heretics" to side with the reapers, and then the rest "true geth" will side with the organics, so if any side wins they can be spared as being allies of the winning side. The quarians attacking rannoch made one side hostile to them, so better put all the effort in the side that isn't attacking you (reapers).

And remember geth are programs, software. If you shoot down a platform you'll only loose the geth if it's unable to upload itself to the extranet or other geth (sicne they're connected).

If they paint themselves as victims to shepard in the consensus, who says they aren't blatanly lying and they didn't splinter into two groups?

[KingZayd]

Beclab wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Beclab wrote...

Are you comparing synthetics with organics ?

Organics have feelings,hopes and feeling pain.But synthetics... Thy are just machine.

And carbon-based life forms can have feeling, hope and pain but others can't.. why exactly?

Organics are machines too. Just self (plus mother)-assembling.

Synthetics just have purposes not emotions. Those feeling I talked before comes with the soul, and I dont believe synthetics have souls.

No evidence for souls. Or evidence that Quarians have souls, even if we do. Or even that synthetics are more soul-incompatible than organics.

Modifié par KingZayd, 04 décembre 2012 - 07:43 .