1059 réponses à ce sujet

[sw04ca]

KingZayd wrote...
And do we know the Geth  started using chemical weapons from the very beginning? They weren't very intelligent to begin with and they were still learning.

We don't know anything, except that the geth systematically destroyed the vast majority of the quarian race, and that they deliberately targeted civilians in order to do so.

[KingZayd]

sw04ca wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
What makes you think the ones wearing the suits died?
But okay lets say some Quarians were wearing the suits and were still fighting. Then I guess with bullets and explosives that would have compromised the integrity of said suits.

And then they kill the civilians.  We know from Eden Prime that geth do that sort of thing.

Those were Geth whose goal was  to kill all the organics. If we were dealing with those Geth, the number in the title would have been 100%

Modifié par KingZayd, 06 décembre 2012 - 06:41 .

[KingZayd]

sw04ca wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
And do we know the Geth  started using chemical weapons from the very beginning? They weren't very intelligent to begin with and they were still learning.

We don't know anything, except that the geth systematically destroyed the vast majority of the quarian race, and that they deliberately targeted civilians in order to do so.

Except we don't know that either. As we have already established.

[DeinonSlayer]

KingZayd wrote...

sw04ca wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
What makes you think the ones wearing the suits died?
But okay lets say some Quarians were wearing the suits and were still fighting. Then I guess with bullets and explosives that would have compromised the integrity of said suits.

And then they kill the civilians.  We know from Eden Prime that geth do that sort of thing.

Those were Geth who's goal was  to kill all the organics. If we were dealing with those Geth, the number in the title would have been 100%

Right. The "true" geth instead targeted everything they perceived as a threat, which eventually meant all quarians, until the last of them were seen in retreat from the planet. That's the attitude the Geth VI expresses. Unlike Legion, he labels them all a "threat" and expresses no remorse at the prospect of killing them down to the last child.

[KingZayd]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

sw04ca wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
What makes you think the ones wearing the suits died?
But okay lets say some Quarians were wearing the suits and were still fighting. Then I guess with bullets and explosives that would have compromised the integrity of said suits.

And then they kill the civilians.  We know from Eden Prime that geth do that sort of thing.

Those were Geth who's goal was  to kill all the organics. If we were dealing with those Geth, the number in the title would have been 100%

Right. The "true" geth instead targeted everything they perceived as a threat, which eventually meant all quarians, until the last of them were seen in retreat from the planet. That's the attitude the Geth VI expresses. Unlike Legion, he labels them all a "threat" and expresses no remorse at the prospect of killing them down to the last child.

This would actually have been before the divisions between "true" and "heretic". So it'd probably be somewhere in between.

Nobody is denying that the Geth were ruthless in their attacks. They certainly didn't work to minimise civillian casualities. But that's the Quarian and Geth style.

Modifié par KingZayd, 06 décembre 2012 - 06:44 .

[DeinonSlayer]

KingZayd wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

sw04ca wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
What makes you think the ones wearing the suits died?
But okay lets say some Quarians were wearing the suits and were still fighting. Then I guess with bullets and explosives that would have compromised the integrity of said suits.

And then they kill the civilians.  We know from Eden Prime that geth do that sort of thing.

Those were Geth who's goal was  to kill all the organics. If we were dealing with those Geth, the number in the title would have been 100%

Right. The "true" geth instead targeted everything they perceived as a threat, which eventually meant all quarians, until the last of them were seen in retreat from the planet. That's the attitude the Geth VI expresses. Unlike Legion, he labels them all a "threat" and expresses no remorse at the prospect of killing them down to the last child.

This would actually have been before the divisions between "true" and "heretic". So it'd probably be somewhere in between.

Nobody is denying that the Geth were ruthless in their attacks. They certainly didn't work to minimise civillian casualities. But that's the Quarian and Geth style.

...is this what it's like for those people who sit around and speculate about how Gettysburg would have turned out if that fence hadn't stalled Pickett's Charge?

[KingZayd]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

sw04ca wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
What makes you think the ones wearing the suits died?
But okay lets say some Quarians were wearing the suits and were still fighting. Then I guess with bullets and explosives that would have compromised the integrity of said suits.

And then they kill the civilians.  We know from Eden Prime that geth do that sort of thing.

Those were Geth who's goal was  to kill all the organics. If we were dealing with those Geth, the number in the title would have been 100%

Right. The "true" geth instead targeted everything they perceived as a threat, which eventually meant all quarians, until the last of them were seen in retreat from the planet. That's the attitude the Geth VI expresses. Unlike Legion, he labels them all a "threat" and expresses no remorse at the prospect of killing them down to the last child.

This would actually have been before the divisions between "true" and "heretic". So it'd probably be somewhere in between.

Nobody is denying that the Geth were ruthless in their attacks. They certainly didn't work to minimise civillian casualities. But that's the Quarian and Geth style.

...is this what it's like for those people who sit around and speculate about how Gettysburg would have turned out if that fence hadn't stalled Pickett's Charge?

lol.. I guess it's not too dissimilar

I don't really know much about the American civil war, but I think I've heard that charge being described in one of the TV shows I watched. A dad describing the charge to his kids. And then later expanding to say that the charge was... unsuccessful.

[DeinonSlayer]

KingZayd wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

sw04ca wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
What makes you think the ones wearing the suits died?
But okay lets say some Quarians were wearing the suits and were still fighting. Then I guess with bullets and explosives that would have compromised the integrity of said suits.

And then they kill the civilians.  We know from Eden Prime that geth do that sort of thing.

Those were Geth who's goal was  to kill all the organics. If we were dealing with those Geth, the number in the title would have been 100%

Right. The "true" geth instead targeted everything they perceived as a threat, which eventually meant all quarians, until the last of them were seen in retreat from the planet. That's the attitude the Geth VI expresses. Unlike Legion, he labels them all a "threat" and expresses no remorse at the prospect of killing them down to the last child.

This would actually have been before the divisions between "true" and "heretic". So it'd probably be somewhere in between.

Nobody is denying that the Geth were ruthless in their attacks. They certainly didn't work to minimise civillian casualities. But that's the Quarian and Geth style.

...is this what it's like for those people who sit around and speculate about how Gettysburg would have turned out if that fence hadn't stalled Pickett's Charge?

lol.. I guess it's not too dissimilar

I don't really know much about the American civil war, but I think I've heard that charge being described in one of the TV shows I watched. A dad describing the charge to his kids. And then later expanding to say that the charge was... unsuccessful.

There are people who argue the entire battle - and by extension, the war - might have turned if that fence hadn't been there. They say the time it took them to climb it gave the Union soldiers time to load their cannon with cannister, basically turning them into giant shotguns covering a wide area. The thought is, if the Confederates had been able to move faster, the Union position would have been overwhelmed before they could be cut down. That's my understanding of the situation, anyway.

EDIT: Damn it, now I'm one of those people, aren't I?

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 06 décembre 2012 - 07:02 .

[KingZayd]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

sw04ca wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
What makes you think the ones wearing the suits died?
But okay lets say some Quarians were wearing the suits and were still fighting. Then I guess with bullets and explosives that would have compromised the integrity of said suits.

And then they kill the civilians.  We know from Eden Prime that geth do that sort of thing.

Those were Geth who's goal was  to kill all the organics. If we were dealing with those Geth, the number in the title would have been 100%

Right. The "true" geth instead targeted everything they perceived as a threat, which eventually meant all quarians, until the last of them were seen in retreat from the planet. That's the attitude the Geth VI expresses. Unlike Legion, he labels them all a "threat" and expresses no remorse at the prospect of killing them down to the last child.

This would actually have been before the divisions between "true" and "heretic". So it'd probably be somewhere in between.

Nobody is denying that the Geth were ruthless in their attacks. They certainly didn't work to minimise civillian casualities. But that's the Quarian and Geth style.

...is this what it's like for those people who sit around and speculate about how Gettysburg would have turned out if that fence hadn't stalled Pickett's Charge?

lol.. I guess it's not too dissimilar

I don't really know much about the American civil war, but I think I've heard that charge being described in one of the TV shows I watched. A dad describing the charge to his kids. And then later expanding to say that the charge was... unsuccessful.

There are people who argue the entire battle - and by extension, the war - might have turned if that fence hadn't been there. They say the time it took them to climb it gave the Union soldiers time to load their cannon with cannister, basically turning them into giant shotguns covering a wide area. The thought is, if the Confederates had been able to move faster, the Union position would have been overwhelmed before they could be cut down. That's my understanding of the situation, anyway.

EDIT: Damn it, now I'm one of those people, aren't I?

ah.. okay, thanks. Sucks for those charging :/

Question: Is there any link betwen the fences involved  and  "Picket fences"?

Modifié par KingZayd, 06 décembre 2012 - 07:04 .

[l DryIce l]

 I don't blame the Geth for what they did. They were simply reacting to a threat. They didn't really have a choice. 

However, this event does show how dangerous the Geth really are. They don't understand/have emotions or any sense of empathy. Before, I sided with the Geth because I humanized them (personified them?). I saw it unethical to destroy a sentient race simply because they were made of different material, but it isn't just that, is it? They're lacking things that are essential to being able to reliably cooperate in an organic society. 

The potential threat is obvious looking at the Morning War, and I think if it were Humans instead of Quarians, there would be much less sympathising with the Geth. Destroy them or get rid of their sentience, I say.

[DeinonSlayer]

KingZayd wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

...is this what it's like for those people who sit around and speculate about how Gettysburg would have turned out if that fence hadn't stalled Pickett's Charge?

lol.. I guess it's not too dissimilar

I don't really know much about the American civil war, but I think I've heard that charge being described in one of the TV shows I watched. A dad describing the charge to his kids. And then later expanding to say that the charge was... unsuccessful.

There are people who argue the entire battle - and by extension, the war - might have turned if that fence hadn't been there. They say the time it took them to climb it gave the Union soldiers time to load their cannon with cannister, basically turning them into giant shotguns covering a wide area. The thought is, if the Confederates had been able to move faster, the Union position would have been overwhelmed before they could be cut down. That's my understanding of the situation, anyway.

EDIT: Damn it, now I'm one of those people, aren't I?

ah.. okay, thanks. Sucks for those charging :/

Question: Is there any link betwen the fences involved  and  "Picket fences"?

Wikipedia says no.

[DeinonSlayer]

l DryIce l wrote...

 I don't blame the Geth for what they did. They were simply reacting to a threat. They didn't really have a choice. 

However, this event does show how dangerous the Geth really are. They don't understand/have emotions or any sense of empathy. Before, I sided with the Geth because I humanized them (personified them?). I saw it unethical to destroy a sentient race simply because they were made of different material, but it isn't just that, is it? They're lacking things that are essential to being able to reliably cooperate in an organic society. 

The potential threat is obvious looking at the Morning War, and I think if it were Humans instead of Quarians, there would be much less sympathising with the Geth. Destroy them or get rid of their sentience, I say.

If they could be expected (pre-upgrade) to react with genocidal aggression towards any polity they come in conflict with...

I guess the rest of the galaxy was just lucky they isolated themselves.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

It is really sad that Bioware didn't bother to really flesh out the Codex on the history of the Quarians. They kept it really dumbed down throughout, and dumbed it down even further in ME3. You're deciding the fate of the quarians in ME3 ffs, and the geth. Instead you get this half-assed propaganda show from the geth consensus where bioware couldn't even be bothered to show the Quarians without their suits! I did have a play with Geth VI instead of Legion. No peace. I sided with the Quarians. Take Javik with you for the LOLz.

The entire arc was badly written. The story in the game was really dumbed down from where it should have been, and this goes for other parts as well. Of course this would have required more work and made a longer more expensive series.

[Kataphrut94]

Is it possible the high casualty rate and general lack of control inflicted by the geth upon the quarians during the Morning War was a result of the neural network being in a more primitive state? We all know that the geth processing power derives from networked programs and that as each program is destroyed or removed, the geth collective intelligence diminishes. Indeed, the massive loss of geth programs as a result of the quarians destroying their megaserver in ME3 is what led to them becoming desperate enough to accept help from the Reapers.

The megastructure, and later the Reaper code upgrade is what allows them to bypass the limitations of the neural network, but they had none of that during the Morning War. What would make sense is that when the quarians began trying to shut them down after they achieved sentience, the geth started to lose intelligence and revert to a feral state as they lost more and more programs. They likely became more and more irrational and less likely to discriminate between hostile quarians and innocent civilians. The geth sympathisers would have all been long gone by this point and this brings us back to the chemical weapons and mass destruction that led to the quarians getting kicked off Rannoch.

It was only once they were left alone and given 300 years to develop that the geth would have become more sophisticated and introspective, eventually developing the attitude possessed by Legion and the non-heretics that they need to try and reconcile with the quarians. Hence the repairing of damage done to Rannoch, the eagerness to assist the quarians in readjusting to planet-side life if peace is brokered, and the regret if they are forced to destroy them.

[nos_astra]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...
Easy. The geth were objects until they achieved sentience and living beings afterward. Once they hit sapience they had all the rights anyone else did. Especially the right to not be made non-sapient.

While the question of how many rights a single geth runtime has vs. a single quarian is more complicated, anyone shouting 'none' is showing a dangerous favoritism of individual-based species over hive-minded ones.

No one is shouting NONE. I was just saying that the geth by their nature are not easily comparable to an organic which is why applying labels like murder is just wrong.

It is a complex issue: How can these two vastly different species be compared? What rights does a single geth runtime have? How many runtimes are needed to form a fully sentient geth that is granted full rights? 

And the quarians were between a  rock and a hard place. AIs were forbidden, so repercussions were to be expected. The geth were really new, had access to EVERYTHING (and I literally mean everything) and were entirely unpredictable.The quarians were split on what to do with them. Just a minority (albeit an omportant one) made the decision to deactivate them (and probably remove the "faulty" code bits).

The geth didn't want that and retaliated.

At that point this all strikes me as a huge accident. The quarians reacted like anyone would when the foundation of your civilization suddenly develops a mind of its own and has the power to wipe your whole species out or at least cause massive damage without even meaning to.

Reminds me a of a Mexican stand-off.

The quarians reacted badly and lost.
The geth reacted badly and won.

It all got worse from there.

Modifié par klarabella, 06 décembre 2012 - 10:47 .

[hawat333]

Just a quick question here. What did the quarians do? Ah yes, slaughtering billions of sentient beings. Committing genocide. The geth responded defending themselves. I'm not saying they are the innocent victims here. But it's just dumb to blame the whole thing on them. They didn't initate this.

Pantanplan wrote...

I choose peace everytime in Rannoch, and I like Legion's character, but you can't deny the fact that the geth slaughtered billions of innocents.

[JamesLegato]

The fact that there was no survivors at all left on rannoch is all you need to know, although any handfuls of quarian survivors might have died out over 300 years

[Obadiah]

How do people know the Geth "slaughtered" the Quarians? For all anyone knows the Geth cut the Quarian supply lines, attacked their reserves, and the Quarians, in addition to losing confrontations and now completely united against the Geth after quashing all dissent, allowed themselves to perish rather than surrender.

Modifié par Obadiah, 06 décembre 2012 - 02:00 .

[Steelcan]

Obadiah wrote...

How do people know the Geth "slaughtered" the Quarians? For all anyone knows the Geth cut the Quarian supply lines, attacked their reserves, and the Quarians, in addition to losing confrontations and now completely united against the Geth after quashing all dissent, allowed themselves to perish rather than surrender.

. So the quarians let themselves get butchered?  Yeah that makes a lot of sense

[Obadiah]

About as much sense as the Geth slaughtering the Quarians en masse, then letting them escape.

Face it, an interpretation of genocidal Geth based on numbers alone, while ignoring the behavior of the Quarians and Geth, has problems.

Modifié par Obadiah, 06 décembre 2012 - 02:28 .

[Steelcan]

Obadiah wrote...

About as much sense as the Geth slaughtering the Quarians en masse, then letting them escape.

Face it, an interpretation of genocidal Geth based on numbers alone, while ignoring the behavior of the Quarians and Geth, has problems.

. Except the part where the geth DID slaughter them en masse, billions and billions of them, the only let the last ones escape because they were unsure of the implications of destroying them, not out of mercy.

[xAmilli0n]

Obadiah wrote...

About as much sense as the Geth slaughtering the Quarians en masse, then letting them escape.

Face it, an interpretation of genocidal Geth based on numbers alone, while ignoring the behavior of the Quarians and Geth, has problems.

I brought this up in a thread last night, but I'll restate it hear.

During the Morning War, once the Geth started winning, they could have offered a cease fire to stop the violence while they settled how to handle things.  This doesn't mean that the Quarians would have accepted it, but it would show the Geth only really wanted survival.  ME3 shows peace was possible, but the Geth never showed they wanted it (Legion kinda says they do, but they never really show it, killing anyone entering the Veil didn't help either).

Killing 99% of a species takes a lot of effort, dedication, and intent.

[Obadiah]

But you don't know if there was a slaughter. All you know is that there was a war and most of the Quarians died.

[Obadiah]

Finn the Jakey wrote...
...
Quote from ME3: "...mindless slaughter of the Morning War..."

Where is that quote?