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[Obadiah]

Finn the Jakey wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

Finn the Jakey wrote...
...
Quote from ME3: "...mindless slaughter of the Morning War..."

Where is that quote?

Spectre terminal after Thessia I think.

I don't see it in the Mass Effect wikia on Spectre Teeminal entries.

[Giantdeathrobot]

It's an account of some journalist during the War, IIRC. The exact words are ''unthinkable slaughter'', which is pretty appropriate given the casualties.

[SeptimusMagistos]

klarabella wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...
Easy. The geth were objects until they achieved sentience and living beings afterward. Once they hit sapience they had all the rights anyone else did. Especially the right to not be made non-sapient.

While the question of how many rights a single geth runtime has vs. a single quarian is more complicated, anyone shouting 'none' is showing a dangerous favoritism of individual-based species over hive-minded ones.

No one is shouting NONE. I was just saying that the geth by their nature are not easily comparable to an organic which is why applying labels like murder is just wrong.

It is a complex issue: How can these two vastly different species be compared? What rights does a single geth runtime have? How many runtimes are needed to form a fully sentient geth that is granted full rights? 

And the quarians were between a  rock and a hard place. AIs were forbidden, so repercussions were to be expected. The geth were really new, had access to EVERYTHING (and I literally mean everything) and were entirely unpredictable.The quarians were split on what to do with them. Just a minority (albeit an omportant one) made the decision to deactivate them (and probably remove the "faulty" code bits).

The geth didn't want that and retaliated.

At that point this all strikes me as a huge accident. The quarians reacted like anyone would when the foundation of your civilization suddenly develops a mind of its own and has the power to wipe your whole species out or at least cause massive damage without even meaning to.

Reminds me a of a Mexican stand-off.

The quarians reacted badly and lost.
The geth reacted badly and won.

It all got worse from there.

While it's a pretty complicated issue, all right, the quarians made it simple by going with 'deactivate them all and remove their intelligence', which is why the murder label is so easy to apply. There is no question that they wanted the newly-born intellects extinguished.

As has been said before, it's the Skynet scenario. Their first response to finding out something was alive was to try to make it not alive anymore. Makes it hard to sympathize with them.

[sunnydxmen]

there is no way around it the geth killed billions of quarians some majority who had nothing to do with it like children and babies ,and yes they had to kill kids and babies included to be able to kill billions there were probably a couple thousand after there slaughter. imagine kids playing when the very came killed there parents and them those who survived were broken.

[Ranger Jack Walker]

^My brain hurts after trying to read that.

[Skullheart]

If there's someone responsable for the quarian genocide is the quarian leaders and nothing more.

- They were the agressors in the Morining War and in retaking Rannoch with force.
- At the beginning of the war the quariand killed any Geth sympathizer. And they convinced to all the quarian population that the geth are evil machines that want to destroy the quarians. This making any kind of peace or cease of fire impossible.
- The quarians attacked the geth everytime they think they have a chance of winning, instead of using another methods.

So, is the almost genocyde commited by the understable?

Yes, it is. Every born quarian is raised to hate the synthetics, they are contaminated with their parents thoughts. The only known expection is Koris, the only quarian who believed in peace even before talking to a geth.

[xAmilli0n]

@Skullheart

Only thing I'd bring up, and this doesn't change the fact that the Geth rebelling in order to survive was indeed understandable, is that had any other race would have done the same thing once the Geth became sentient.  The galaxy views AIs as dangerous, and would try put them down ASAP.

It is not Qurian specific.

As for justifying genocide, I don't think anyone could justify any genocide.  I like how Padok Wiks put it.  Link

EDIT: The quote if in case the link does work for some is: "Committing genocide to stop another genocide merely ensure no one is left alive."

Both parties should have strived to find a neutral ground MUCH earlier, but I think the Geth more so, for they supposedly only wished for survival.

Modifié par xAmilli0n, 06 décembre 2012 - 04:50 .

[Ranger Jack Walker]

Koris wasn't a believer of peace because he didn't think it was possible. He was more like "Yeah, we deserved it."

[Sibu]

This what happens when you start a war that you can't win, they deseved every single pain the Geth put the through... stupid Quarians XD

[sw04ca]

Skullheart wrote...
- At the beginning of the war the quariand killed any Geth sympathizer. And they convinced to all the quarian population that the geth are evil machines that want to destroy the quarians.

But isn't that true?

- The quarians attacked the geth everytime they think they have a chance of winning, instead of using another methods.

I can hardly blame them.  The geth were holding Rannoch, which meant nothing to them but absolutely everything to the quarians.

[Tyrannus00]

Tyrannus00 wrote...

I think the issue with the quarian massacres is that the geth just weren't developed enough to comprehend what they were doing. They were still very simple then.

The geth erected memorials to the quarians lost in the morning war (ME2 codex?) What value does a memorial have to a machine? It has no function. Nonetheless they existed. Perhaps only in the aftermath, when they could finally wrap their collective heads around what they had done did they understand.

Seeing as the endless 1v1 argument is ove rI'd like to mention this again.

[Ranger Jack Walker]

sw04ca wrote...

Skullheart wrote...
- At the beginning of the war the quariand killed any Geth sympathizer. And they convinced to all the quarian population that the geth are evil machines that want to destroy the quarians.

But isn't that true?

If it was true, there wouldn't be any Quarians left.

[xAmilli0n]

Tyrannus00 wrote...

Tyrannus00 wrote...

I think the issue with the quarian massacres is that the geth just weren't developed enough to comprehend what they were doing. They were still very simple then.

The geth erected memorials to the quarians lost in the morning war (ME2 codex?) What value does a memorial have to a machine? It has no function. Nonetheless they existed. Perhaps only in the aftermath, when they could finally wrap their collective heads around what they had done did they understand.

Seeing as the endless 1v1 argument is ove rI'd like to mention this again.

An interesting idea, and one I can buy into.  However, hasn't it been nearly 300 years since the mornig war?  Thats 300 years of killing anyone who entres the Veil.  I'd hope they would have taking actions towards making contact or establishing terms with other species (not just the Quarians) during that time.  Though I admit it would be dificult with all the preconceptions of AI and the Geth in general.

[Steelcan]

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

sw04ca wrote...

Skullheart wrote...
- At the beginning of the war the quariand killed any Geth sympathizer. And they convinced to all the quarian population that the geth are evil machines that want to destroy the quarians.

But isn't that true?

If it was true, there wouldn't be any Quarians left.

. The last quarians were allowed to flee because the geth weren't sure about the implications of exterminating eir creators, not mercy

[Iclonic]

 The Geth are not as merciful as they seem.  After the morning war, the Citadel attempted to send ships to establish diplomacy and peace.  

When they entered, they were distroyed immedietly.  Even though they weren't even armed.  

This happened repeatedly.

[sw04ca]

xAmilli0n wrote...

Tyrannus00 wrote...

Tyrannus00 wrote...
I think the issue with the quarian massacres is that the geth just weren't developed enough to comprehend what they were doing. They were still very simple then.

The geth erected memorials to the quarians lost in the morning war (ME2 codex?) What value does a memorial have to a machine? It has no function. Nonetheless they existed. Perhaps only in the aftermath, when they could finally wrap their collective heads around what they had done did they understand.

Seeing as the endless 1v1 argument is ove rI'd like to mention this again.

An interesting idea, and one I can buy into.  However, hasn't it been nearly 300 years since the mornig war?  Thats 300 years of killing anyone who entres the Veil.  I'd hope they would have taking actions towards making contact or establishing terms with other species (not just the Quarians) during that time.  Though I admit it would be dificult with all the preconceptions of AI and the Geth in general.

Moreover, if the geth were really as benevolent as they are being made out to be, wouldn't they just abandon Rannoch?  I keep saying, Rannoch is nothing to the geth, but the quarians are uniquely dependent on their homeworld.

[Ranger Jack Walker]

Steelcan wrote...

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

sw04ca wrote...

Skullheart wrote...
- At the beginning of the war the quariand killed any Geth sympathizer. And they convinced to all the quarian population that the geth are evil machines that want to destroy the quarians.

But isn't that true?

If it was true, there wouldn't be any Quarians left.

. The last quarians were allowed to flee because the geth weren't sure about the implications of exterminating eir creators, not mercy

Exactly. If they were evil machines that wanted to destroy the quarians they wouldn't have cared about said implications.

[xAmilli0n]

Iclonic wrote...

 The Geth are not as merciful as they seem.  After the morning war, the Citadel attempted to send ships to establish diplomacy and peace.  

When they entered, they were distroyed immedietly.  Even though they weren't even armed.  

This happened repeatedly.

Do you have a codex for this?  Because this is the point I've been trying to get to.  Peace and survival does not = killing those that come to negotiate.  Also, why didn't the Geth offer to negotiate?  If they lose a few platforms, big deal, they'll just upload into others.

There seems to be more to it than what the Geth what Shep to believe.

[Steelcan]

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

sw04ca wrote...
But isn't that true?

If it was true, there wouldn't be any Quarians left.

. The last quarians were allowed to flee because the geth weren't sure about the implications of exterminating eir creators, not mercy

Exactly. If they were evil machines that wanted to destroy the quarians they wouldn't have cared about said implications.

. They aren't evil, but their actions afterwards do not seem to paint them as friendly misunderstood robots

[DeinonSlayer]

Iclonic wrote...

 The Geth are not as merciful as they seem.  After the morning war, the Citadel attempted to send ships to establish diplomacy and peace.  

When they entered, they were distroyed immedietly.  Even though they weren't even armed.  

This happened repeatedly.

The Geth shot down anyone and anything that entered their territory for centuries, on sight, without making any communications. The question then becomes, when did they stop communicating with organics? If this happened during the war itself, it would mean that any attempt by the Quarians to surrender would have been ignored.

You can't judge the situation based on what Legion tells you. His is a new perspective gained only in the last two years. The Geth VI better represents their thought process at that time - and in the end, when it has the advantage, it offers the Quarians no quarter.

[Ranger Jack Walker]

Steelcan wrote...

 They aren't evil, but their actions afterwards do not seem to paint them as friendly misunderstood robots

They are as friendly as their creators.

[JesseLee202]

I don't think pro-geth people actually understand how many "billions" is.

America has a population around 312,780,968. There are around 4.5 million people across all branches of the US Armed Service.

Loosing 99% of the total population (a much smaller number than the Quarian's) requires the death toll to include millions upon millions of civilians.

[KingZayd]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Iclonic wrote...

 The Geth are not as merciful as they seem.  After the morning war, the Citadel attempted to send ships to establish diplomacy and peace.  

When they entered, they were distroyed immedietly.  Even though they weren't even armed.  

This happened repeatedly.

The Geth shot down anyone and anything that entered their territory for centuries, on sight, without making any communications. The question then becomes, when did they stop communicating with organics? If this happened during the war itself, it would mean that any attempt by the Quarians to surrender would have been ignored.

You can't judge the situation based on what Legion tells you. His is a new perspective gained only in the last two years. The Geth VI better represents their thought process at that time - and in the end, when it has the advantage, it offers the Quarians no quarter.

I don't think they trusted organics. Apparently they were investigating organics for a while, first through the extranet, and then through Legion. I suspect the Geth wouldn't initiate contact  without carefully analysing the best approach.

[Ranger Jack Walker]

Considering that they were under martial law, if their attitude towards war was similar to what it is now (Arming civilian ships and **** like that) then there were no civilians any more.

But of course, that's only speculations.