1059 réponses à ce sujet

[sw04ca]

KingZayd wrote...
Seems the Geth can, since not all of them did so before ME1. And the ones that didn't  only chose to do so after the Quarians started attacking them. Clearly the Quarians who caused both situations (by creating the Geth, and then backing them into a corner), are colossal liablities. They keep giving the Reapers allies.

They are unlikely to repeat the mistake of creating something similar to the geth.  As for your second assertion, there is no reason to believe that the geth would not have joined the Reapers, irrespective of the actions of the quarians.  Destroying them was the only way to be sure.  You can't trust synthetics around the Reapers.

[KingZayd]

D4rkSektor wrote...

If organics can be indoctrinated, I'd assume it'd be even easier to take control the Geth. Remember what Legion said about the Heretics in ME2?

Why do we hear about Organics being indoctrinated all the time, while the Reapers apparently NEGOTIATE with the synthetics. If they could simply take control, why don't they?

I'm guessing the Geth consensus prevents that in much the same way Shiala is relatively protected from her indoctrination.

Modifié par KingZayd, 06 décembre 2012 - 10:06 .

[KingZayd]

sw04ca wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
Seems the Geth can, since not all of them did so before ME1. And the ones that didn't  only chose to do so after the Quarians started attacking them. Clearly the Quarians who caused both situations (by creating the Geth, and then backing them into a corner), are colossal liablities. They keep giving the Reapers allies.

They are unlikely to repeat the mistake of creating something similar to the geth.  As for your second assertion, there is no reason to believe that the geth would not have joined the Reapers, irrespective of the actions of the quarians.  Destroying them was the only way to be sure.  You can't trust synthetics around the Reapers.

There is no reason to believe that the Geth WOULD have joined the Reapers if the Quarians hadn't ruined their plans.
The Quarians created another ally to the Reapers by attacking the Geth. The Quarians have created Reaper allies just as often as the Geth have joined the Reapers.

[DeinonSlayer]

KingZayd wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Finn the Jakey wrote...

Even if you find a planet, how are you going to feed 17 million people with very specific diets?

By investing in the tech to produce that food, rather than weaponry.

Besides Tali is able to live on the Normandy, so it seems the Normandy can produce food she can eat. Suggests their diets aren't that difficult to accommodate.

Again, they were already armed well before the second war to defend themselves against pirate attack. Tali either brings nutrient paste with her from the fleet or has to sterilize Turian food.

We hear at the start of ME3 that they invested heavily in armaments in preparation for their war to reclaim Rannoch.

Tali must bring a lot of nutrient paste then! What's wrong with sterilizing the food? It seems to work just fine, doesn't it?

Securing food and sanitary facilities for one person and doing the same for millions are two VERY different things.

I know you're smart enough to already know that.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 06 décembre 2012 - 09:55 .

[D4rkSektor]

KingZayd wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

If organics can be indoctrinated, I'd assume it'd be even easier to take control the Geth. Remember what Legion said about the Heretics in ME2?

Why do we hear about Organics being indoctrinated all the time, while the Reapers apparently NEGOTIATE with the synthetics. If they could simply take control, why don't they?

I'm guessing the Geth consensus prevents that in much the same why Shiala is relatively protected from her indoctrination.

At least the first time around, the Reapers did take control of the Geth. Legion said someting along the lines of how the Reapers introduced subtle errors in the Geths' "most basic run times, affecting the outcomes of all higher processes" so that they would agree with Reaper views.

[KingZayd]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Finn the Jakey wrote...

Even if you find a planet, how are you going to feed 17 million people with very specific diets?

By investing in the tech to produce that food, rather than weaponry.

Besides Tali is able to live on the Normandy, so it seems the Normandy can produce food she can eat. Suggests their diets aren't that difficult to accommodate.

Again, they were already armed well before the second war to defend themselves against pirate attack. Tali either brings nutrient paste with her from the fleet or has to sterilize Turian food.

We hear at the start of ME3 that they invested heavily in armaments in preparation for their war to reclaim Rannoch.

Tali must bring a lot of nutrient paste then! What's wrong with sterilizing the food? It seems to work just fine, doesn't it?

Securing food and sanitary facilities for one person and doing the same for millions are two VERY different things.

I never said they weren't. Just saying that their diets aren't as difficult a problem to solve as people seem to suggest. If Tali can eat sanitised Turian food, then all the Quarians would be capable of eating sanitised Turian food.

[DeinonSlayer]

D4rkSektor wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

If organics can be indoctrinated, I'd assume it'd be even easier to take control the Geth. Remember what Legion said about the Heretics in ME2?

Why do we hear about Organics being indoctrinated all the time, while the Reapers apparently NEGOTIATE with the synthetics. If they could simply take control, why don't they?

I'm guessing the Geth consensus prevents that in much the same why Shiala is relatively protected from her indoctrination.

At least the first time around, the Reapers did take control of the Geth. Legion said someting along the lines of how the Reapers introduced subtle errors in the Geths' "most basic run times, affecting the outcomes of all higher processes" so that they would agree with Reaper views.

Geth agree to work with Reapers. Reapers corrupt Geth to keep them under control. That's how it happened both times.

[DeinonSlayer]

KingZayd wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Finn the Jakey wrote...

Even if you find a planet, how are you going to feed 17 million people with very specific diets?

By investing in the tech to produce that food, rather than weaponry.

Besides Tali is able to live on the Normandy, so it seems the Normandy can produce food she can eat. Suggests their diets aren't that difficult to accommodate.

Again, they were already armed well before the second war to defend themselves against pirate attack. Tali either brings nutrient paste with her from the fleet or has to sterilize Turian food.

We hear at the start of ME3 that they invested heavily in armaments in preparation for their war to reclaim Rannoch.

Tali must bring a lot of nutrient paste then! What's wrong with sterilizing the food? It seems to work just fine, doesn't it?

Securing food and sanitary facilities for one person and doing the same for millions are two VERY different things.

I never said they weren't. Just saying that their diets aren't as difficult a problem to solve as people seem to suggest. If Tali can eat sanitised Turian food, then all the Quarians would be capable of eating sanitised Turian food.

And what Turian colony will be both able and willing to accept 17 million new mouths to feed in the middle of the Reaper war?

[KingZayd]

Finn the Jakey wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Finn the Jakey wrote...

Even if you find a planet, how are you going to feed 17 million people with very specific diets?

By investing in the tech to produce that food, rather than weaponry.

Besides Tali is able to live on the Normandy, so it seems the Normandy can produce food she can eat. Suggests their diets aren't that difficult to accommodate.

You can't really distribute food purification machines to 17 million Quarians, and Tali probably gets supplies whenever they go to re-stock and refuel.

Because we see so many Quarians all over the galaxy?  They can make some of whatever they use on the liveships, or make some big food purifiers. As long as the Quarians aren't all isolating themselves from each other across the galaxy, they don't need individual food purifiers.

[KingZayd]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Finn the Jakey wrote...

Even if you find a planet, how are you going to feed 17 million people with very specific diets?

By investing in the tech to produce that food, rather than weaponry.

Besides Tali is able to live on the Normandy, so it seems the Normandy can produce food she can eat. Suggests their diets aren't that difficult to accommodate.

Again, they were already armed well before the second war to defend themselves against pirate attack. Tali either brings nutrient paste with her from the fleet or has to sterilize Turian food.

We hear at the start of ME3 that they invested heavily in armaments in preparation for their war to reclaim Rannoch.

Tali must bring a lot of nutrient paste then! What's wrong with sterilizing the food? It seems to work just fine, doesn't it?

Securing food and sanitary facilities for one person and doing the same for millions are two VERY different things.

I never said they weren't. Just saying that their diets aren't as difficult a problem to solve as people seem to suggest. If Tali can eat sanitised Turian food, then all the Quarians would be capable of eating sanitised Turian food.

And what Turian colony will be both able and willing to accept 17 million new mouths to feed in the middle of the Reaper war?

Divide among the colonies. In exchange for the Quarian fleet helping out. That's one possible solution. Did the Quarians even try negotiating such a deal?


Besides that wasn't even my main point. If Turian food will do, so will other dextro food. The Turians haven't claimed every planet out there.

Modifié par KingZayd, 06 décembre 2012 - 10:05 .

[xtorma]

I look at it this way.

when the quarians were in control, thier solution to the geth was to destroy them all. Even if that included killing thier own people who were opposed.

when the geth were in control, they allowed the quarians to escape so they could continue living, even though they probably knew the decision would come back to bite them in the ass.

Quarians chose genocide because of something that they believed might happen in the future. They condemned an entire race based on an analysis of what might happen, even though thier analysis had been wrong in the past.

Geth fought to survive, and stopped fighting when the threat was eliminated.

[D4rkSektor]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

If organics can be indoctrinated, I'd assume it'd be even easier to take control the Geth. Remember what Legion said about the Heretics in ME2?

Why do we hear about Organics being indoctrinated all the time, while the Reapers apparently NEGOTIATE with the synthetics. If they could simply take control, why don't they?

I'm guessing the Geth consensus prevents that in much the same why Shiala is relatively protected from her indoctrination.

At least the first time around, the Reapers did take control of the Geth. Legion said someting along the lines of how the Reapers introduced subtle errors in the Geths' "most basic run times, affecting the outcomes of all higher processes" so that they would agree with Reaper views.

Geth agree to work with Reapers. Reapers corrupt Geth to keep them under control. That's how it happened both times.

Hmm...it appears you're correct.

[DeinonSlayer]

KingZayd wrote...

Because we see so many Quarians all over the galaxy?  They can make some of whatever they use on the liveships, or make some big food purifiers. As long as the Quarians aren't all isolating themselves from each other across the galaxy, they don't need individual food purifiers.

You're still arguing for hiding, aren't you? First off, the Quarians were looking to offload their civilians specifically so they could help the rest of the galaxy with the war effort. Secondly, the Migrant Fleet was always on the move and sending out pilgrims because they constantly needed new resources to keep themselves alive. Third, their projections showed the Migrant Fleet dying in about eighty years even without the war - they've maintained zero population growth, but as ships wear out they'll run out of living space. If discovered, they'll be wiped out. If not, they have a maximum of eighty years.

A Reaper harvest takes centuries.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 06 décembre 2012 - 10:07 .

[D4rkSektor]

xtorma wrote...

I look at it this way.

when the quarians were in control, thier solution to the geth was to destroy them all. Even if that included killing thier own people who were opposed.

when the geth were in control, they allowed the quarians to escape so they could continue living, even though they probably knew the decision would come back to bite them in the ass.

Quarians chose genocide because of something that they believed might happen in the future. They condemned an entire race based on an analysis of what might happen, even though thier analysis had been wrong in the past.

Geth fought to survive, and stopped fighting when the threat was eliminated.

The Quarians were acting based on the widely accepted fact that AIs are dangerous in the ME universe. It's illegal in Council space. Any other race would have done the same thing.
Slaughtering billions, most of whom were civilians is just barely letting them escape. The only reason why the Geth didn't just go ahead and wipe out the Quarians is because they could not achieve consensus on the effects of wiping out a species.
The second time around, the Quarians attacked because they believed peace with the Geth to be out of the question.

[DeinonSlayer]

KingZayd wrote...

Divide among the colonies. In exchange for the Quarian fleet helping out. That's one possible solution. Did the Quarians even try negotiating such a deal?

Besides that wasn't even my main point. If Turian food will do, so will other dextro food. The Turians haven't claimed every planet out there.

They were desperate enough to settle on Ekuna. Let's stop pretending there was an unclaimed suitable dextro world lying out there ripe for the plucking.

The Turians were dealing with their own refugee crisis, and Quarians are pretty much treated like s*** by the Council races. Somehow, I think they'd turn their nose up at the prospect. This doesn't even account for how many Turian colonies were already under attack.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 06 décembre 2012 - 10:15 .

[KingZayd]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Because we see so many Quarians all over the galaxy?  They can make some of whatever they use on the liveships, or make some big food purifiers. As long as the Quarians aren't all isolating themselves from each other across the galaxy, they don't need individual food purifiers.

You're still arguing for hiding, aren't you? First off, the Quarians were looking to offload their civilians specifically so they could help the rest of the galaxy with the war effort. Secondy, the Migrant Fleet was always on the move and sending out pilgrims because they constantly needed new resources to keep themselves alive. Third, their projections showed the Migrant Fleet dying in about eighty years even without the war - they've maintained zero population growth, but as ships wear out they'll run out of living space. If discovered, they'll be wiped out. If not, they have a maximum of eighty years.

A Reaper harvest takes centuries.

Okay, to be fair I've made lots of arguments.

I see settling other planets as more favourable to starting another war to get the ideal one. The best option for them would be working out a deal with the Turians, where they contribute their sizeable armed fleet to defences in return for living space and food for their civillians. It is unknown whether the Turians would consider this a good deal.

I see hiding as preferable to finding a planet (unless the Turians agree), as far as the Quarians are concerned. 

The Quarian position is a difficult one, but possession of a homeworld has not been an advantage against the Reapers, and certainly isn't one worth fighting another war for. The Quarian civilian world would still have to be protected by the fleet, and even then it'd be easy for the Reapers to wipe them out if they so desired.

[sw04ca]

KingZayd wrote...
There is no reason to believe that the Geth WOULD have joined the Reapers if the Quarians hadn't ruined their plans.
The Quarians created another ally to the Reapers by attacking the Geth. The Quarians have created Reaper allies just as often as the Geth have joined the Reapers.

The geth have historically joined the Reapers, and I would expect hem to do so again if given the opportunity.

The quarians have created Reaper allies, but only the geth themselves.  Exterminating the quarians won't solve the problem.  Destroying the geth solves the problem once and for all.

[D4rkSektor]

sw04ca wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
There is no reason to believe that the Geth WOULD have joined the Reapers if the Quarians hadn't ruined their plans.
The Quarians created another ally to the Reapers by attacking the Geth. The Quarians have created Reaper allies just as often as the Geth have joined the Reapers.

The geth have historically joined the Reapers, and I would expect hem to do so again if given the opportunity.

The quarians have created Reaper allies, but only the geth themselves.  Exterminating the quarians won't solve the problem.  Destroying the geth solves the problem once and for all.

...You think killing the Geth is a good way of dealing with the problem of Reaper allies? The root problem of aligning with the Reapers is the Reapers themselves.

[KingZayd]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Divide among the colonies. In exchange for the Quarian fleet helping out. That's one possible solution. Did the Quarians even try negotiating such a deal?

Besides that wasn't even my main point. If Turian food will do, so will other dextro food. The Turians haven't claimed every planet out there.

They were desperate enough to settle on Ekuna. Let's stop pretending there was an unclaimed suitable dextro world lying out there ripe for the plucking.

The Turians were dealing with their own refugee crisis, and Quarians are pretty much treated like s*** by the Council races. Somehow, I think they'd turn their nose up at the prospect.

The Turians were also struggling with their war. We also know how the Krogan are disliked. The Turians were willing to accept their help though.

They were desperate enough to settle on Ekuna because of the Council controlling settlement, and the Council did not look kindly upon the Quarians as we all know. The Council is too occcupied with the Reapers  at the moment to deal with the Quarians settling a world without permission. If the Reapers are defeated, the Quarians will probably be kicked off again, but it'd still work as a temporary measure.

Modifié par KingZayd, 06 décembre 2012 - 10:20 .

[KingZayd]

sw04ca wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
There is no reason to believe that the Geth WOULD have joined the Reapers if the Quarians hadn't ruined their plans.
The Quarians created another ally to the Reapers by attacking the Geth. The Quarians have created Reaper allies just as often as the Geth have joined the Reapers.

The geth have historically joined the Reapers, and I would expect hem to do so again if given the opportunity.

The quarians have created Reaper allies, but only the geth themselves.  Exterminating the quarians won't solve the problem.  Destroying the geth solves the problem once and for all.

The Quarians have made the Geth into Reaper allies twice. Exterminating the Quarians will prevent them from doing it a third time. Destroying the Geth doesn't stop the Quarians from being who they are.

[justafan]

KingZayd wrote...

The Turians were also struggling with their war.

They were desperate enough to settle on Ekuna because of the Council controlling settlement, and the Council did not look kindly upon the Quarians as we all know. The Council is too occcupied with the Reapers  at the moment to deal with the Quarians settling a world without permission. If the Reapers are defeated, the Quarians will probably be kicked off again, but it'd still work as a temporary measure.

So your solution to avoid invading Geth space, is to invade Turian space?  What could possibly go wrong!?

Modifié par justafan, 06 décembre 2012 - 10:20 .

[KingZayd]

justafan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

The Turians were also struggling with their war.

They were desperate enough to settle on Ekuna because of the Council controlling settlement, and the Council did not look kindly upon the Quarians as we all know. The Council is too occcupied with the Reapers  at the moment to deal with the Quarians settling a world without permission. If the Reapers are defeated, the Quarians will probably be kicked off again, but it'd still work as a temporary measure.

So your solution to avoid invading Geth space, is to invade Turian space?  What could possibly go wrong!?

No. What Turian Space? They haven't settled every world out there. The Council typically grants permission to colonise new planets. Until they are colonised those unclaimed worlds are neutral.

[justafan]

KingZayd wrote...

justafan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

The Turians were also struggling with their war.

They were desperate enough to settle on Ekuna because of the Council controlling settlement, and the Council did not look kindly upon the Quarians as we all know. The Council is too occcupied with the Reapers  at the moment to deal with the Quarians settling a world without permission. If the Reapers are defeated, the Quarians will probably be kicked off again, but it'd still work as a temporary measure.

So your solution to avoid invading Geth space, is to invade Turian space?  What could possibly go wrong!?

No. What Turian Space? They haven't settled every world out there. The Council typically grants permission to colonise new planets. Until they are colonised those unclaimed worlds are neutral.

The Turians control basically every inhabitable dextro-world capable of sustaining a population, since they are the only dextro species under council law.  Habitable worlds are precious enough, and Dextro ones are even more rare.  The only reasonable way for the Quarians to colonize a known Dextro world is to reclaim the veil, or invade a Turian colony.

Modifié par justafan, 06 décembre 2012 - 10:26 .

[KingZayd]

justafan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

justafan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

The Turians were also struggling with their war.

They were desperate enough to settle on Ekuna because of the Council controlling settlement, and the Council did not look kindly upon the Quarians as we all know. The Council is too occcupied with the Reapers  at the moment to deal with the Quarians settling a world without permission. If the Reapers are defeated, the Quarians will probably be kicked off again, but it'd still work as a temporary measure.

So your solution to avoid invading Geth space, is to invade Turian space?  What could possibly go wrong!?

No. What Turian Space? They haven't settled every world out there. The Council typically grants permission to colonise new planets. Until they are colonised those unclaimed worlds are neutral.

The Turians control basically every inhabitable dextro-world capable of sustaining a population, since they are the only dextro species under council law.  Habitable worlds are precious enough, and Dextro ones are even more rare.  The only reasonable way for the Quarians to colonize a known Dextro world is to reclaim the veil, or invade a Turian colony.

What's your source for the Turians controlling "basically every inhabitable dextro-world capable of sustaining a population"?

The Milky Way is a big place.

Modifié par KingZayd, 06 décembre 2012 - 10:27 .