1059 réponses à ce sujet

[KingZayd]

Calinstel wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Calinstel wrote...

So, it was before the actual war.  Batarian space doesn't count as that was lost 6 months or so prior.

Now, Admiral Gerrel or was it Admiral Raan, stated the war with the geth started 17 days prior to Shepard meeting them.  17 days for the geth to contact the Reapers, build a facility to house one and then let a Reaper land on Rannoch.  Yet still alost their entire dyson sphere get blown up before the Reapers help?

It does not add up.  The Reaper must have been on Rannoch well before the Migrant fleet entered the system or they would have known about it.  Since the Dyson Sphere was destroyed only after the fleet entered Tikkun, the geth were not aligned (controlled) by the Reaper as shown by the quarians actually winning at this point.

So my issue goes back to the original issue.  The geth had already aligned themselves with the Reapers before Legion indicates they needed to.

Wait.. why are we starting the 17 days before Shepard met the quarians, and not at any point in the 6 months before? You lost me on that step.

The timeline (screwy though it may be) is:
~ 6 months prior to ME3, Reapers invade Batarian space
Start of ME3 - 1 hour, Reapers are still in Batarian space and no galactic community (other than the Batarians) know the Reapers are actually here.
Reapers hit Earth, Shepard runs away screaming like a little gurly (Sorry, joking here) to Mars and then the Citadel all within about 1 day or less.
On the Citadel, the first message you can read as a Spetre is the quarians are doing something.
So, before the Reapers hit Earth, the quarians are on the move.

The timeline as I see it from in game information.

What Shepard did in Batarian space is well known.  Different species believed him different amounts.

This line: So, before the Reapers hit Earth, the quarians are on the move.
seems to clash with this one: Start of ME3 - 1 hour, Reapers are still in Batarian space and no galactic community (other than the Batarians) know the Reapers are actually here.

[D4rkSektor]

KingZayd wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
Where have you explained why the Geth would not see any Organic ships invading their space as an invasion. The fact that any Geth outside the Perseus Veil, gets shot at doesn't do much to suggest that the Quarians are ready for peace either? What peaceful gestures have the Quarians made?

I chose peace. But if peace is unattainable, you HAVE to choose one.

If the Council were flying into Geth space, they'd attempt to contact the Geth, i.e. not an invasion. And as I've said many times now, the Heretics, which were seemingly the only faction of Geth, attacked organics. As in, they are hostile. What does that mean? It means that you bet your ass that organics are going to fight back. The Quarians didn't consider peace because of that.

Or spying. Why not try and broadcast messages from outside Geth space?

The Quarians never considered peace, the Quarians have always been hostile. If the Quarians have made no attempt to initate peace, and still refuse to consider Geth validity, why would the Geth see them as ready to make peace?

Because the distance is too great...? The Perseus Veil isn't just a thin layer of star dust. It's likely lightyears in size.
I'm running out of ways to try to explain this relatively simple concept to you.
After kicking the Quarians off Rannoch, the burden of proof of showing that they were not hostile towards organics was on the Geth. Not the Quarians, the Geth. If the Geth wanted peace, they should have ****ing said so in the first place. And I'm sure they knew about the Heretics. The true Geth's image towards organics was extremely important in determing the course of future events.

Modifié par D4rkSektor, 06 décembre 2012 - 11:24 .

[KingZayd]

D4rkSektor wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
Where have you explained why the Geth would not see any Organic ships invading their space as an invasion. The fact that any Geth outside the Perseus Veil, gets shot at doesn't do much to suggest that the Quarians are ready for peace either? What peaceful gestures have the Quarians made?

I chose peace. But if peace is unattainable, you HAVE to choose one.

If the Council were flying into Geth space, they'd attempt to contact the Geth, i.e. not an invasion. And as I've said many times now, the Heretics, which were seemingly the only faction of Geth, attacked organics. As in, they are hostile. What does that mean? It means that you bet your ass that organics are going to fight back. The Quarians didn't consider peace because of that.

Or spying. Why not try and broadcast messages from outside Geth space?

The Quarians never considered peace, the Quarians have always been hostile. If the Quarians have made no attempt to initate peace, and still refuse to consider Geth validity, why would the Geth see them as ready to make peace?

Because the distance is too great...? The Perseus Veil isn't just a thin layer of star dust. It's likely lightyears in size.
I'm running out of ways to try to explain this relatively simple concept to you.
After kicking the Quarians off Rannoch, the burden of proof of showing that they were not hostile towards organics was on the Geth. Not the Quarians, the Geth. If the Geth wanted peace, they should have ****ing said so in the first place. And I'm sure they knew about the Heretics. The true Geth's image towards organics was extremely important in determing the course of future events.

After trying to kill the Geth, the burden of proof lies with the Quarians. Also, the Geth have been monitoring Organics via extranet. That means they  can get signal.

Modifié par KingZayd, 06 décembre 2012 - 11:24 .

[sw04ca]

KingZayd wrote...
If the Quarians are destroyed, then the quarians can't turn the Geth towards the Reapers.  As simple a solution as there can be.

But that doesn't solve the problem of the geth joining the Reapers of their own accord.

[KingZayd]

sw04ca wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
If the Quarians are destroyed, then the quarians can't turn the Geth towards the Reapers.  As simple a solution as there can be.

But that doesn't solve the problem of the geth joining the Reapers of their own accord.

No evidence that they would in absence of the Quarians.

[D4rkSektor]

KingZayd wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
Where have you explained why the Geth would not see any Organic ships invading their space as an invasion. The fact that any Geth outside the Perseus Veil, gets shot at doesn't do much to suggest that the Quarians are ready for peace either? What peaceful gestures have the Quarians made?

I chose peace. But if peace is unattainable, you HAVE to choose one.

If the Council were flying into Geth space, they'd attempt to contact the Geth, i.e. not an invasion. And as I've said many times now, the Heretics, which were seemingly the only faction of Geth, attacked organics. As in, they are hostile. What does that mean? It means that you bet your ass that organics are going to fight back. The Quarians didn't consider peace because of that.

Or spying. Why not try and broadcast messages from outside Geth space?

The Quarians never considered peace, the Quarians have always been hostile. If the Quarians have made no attempt to initate peace, and still refuse to consider Geth validity, why would the Geth see them as ready to make peace?

Because the distance is too great...? The Perseus Veil isn't just a thin layer of star dust. It's likely lightyears in size.
I'm running out of ways to try to explain this relatively simple concept to you.
After kicking the Quarians off Rannoch, the burden of proof of showing that they were not hostile towards organics was on the Geth. Not the Quarians, the Geth. If the Geth wanted peace, they should have ****ing said so in the first place. And I'm sure they knew about the Heretics. The true Geth's image towards organics was extremely important in determing the course of future events.

After trying to kill the Geth, the burden of proof lies with the Quarians.

Uuuh...no. The burden of proof is on the synthetic beings that slaughtered billions of Quarians, most of whom were civilians. If I were to walk into a room of people and shoot someone, the burder of proof that I wasn't about to shoot someone else would be on me.

[sw04ca]

KingZayd wrote...

sw04ca wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
If the Quarians are destroyed, then the quarians can't turn the Geth towards the Reapers.  As simple a solution as there can be.

But that doesn't solve the problem of the geth joining the Reapers of their own accord.

No evidence that they would in absence of the Quarians.

There is their history of cooperation with the Reapers.  That's certainly better than any evidence we have that they wouldn't.

[KingZayd]

D4rkSektor wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
Where have you explained why the Geth would not see any Organic ships invading their space as an invasion. The fact that any Geth outside the Perseus Veil, gets shot at doesn't do much to suggest that the Quarians are ready for peace either? What peaceful gestures have the Quarians made?

I chose peace. But if peace is unattainable, you HAVE to choose one.

If the Council were flying into Geth space, they'd attempt to contact the Geth, i.e. not an invasion. And as I've said many times now, the Heretics, which were seemingly the only faction of Geth, attacked organics. As in, they are hostile. What does that mean? It means that you bet your ass that organics are going to fight back. The Quarians didn't consider peace because of that.

Or spying. Why not try and broadcast messages from outside Geth space?

The Quarians never considered peace, the Quarians have always been hostile. If the Quarians have made no attempt to initate peace, and still refuse to consider Geth validity, why would the Geth see them as ready to make peace?

Because the distance is too great...? The Perseus Veil isn't just a thin layer of star dust. It's likely lightyears in size.
I'm running out of ways to try to explain this relatively simple concept to you.
After kicking the Quarians off Rannoch, the burden of proof of showing that they were not hostile towards organics was on the Geth. Not the Quarians, the Geth. If the Geth wanted peace, they should have ****ing said so in the first place. And I'm sure they knew about the Heretics. The true Geth's image towards organics was extremely important in determing the course of future events.

After trying to kill the Geth, the burden of proof lies with the Quarians.

Uuuh...no. The burden of proof is on the synthetic beings that slaughtered billions of Quarians, most of whom were civilians. If I were to walk into a room of people and shoot someone, the burder of proof that I wasn't about to shoot someone else would be on me.

Burden lies on the organic beings  that attempted to slaughter billions of Geth, all of whom were civillians at the time.

If the people in question tried to shoot you first? no. It wouldn't.

[sw04ca]

No geth were civilians. They were appliances.

[KingZayd]

sw04ca wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

sw04ca wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
If the Quarians are destroyed, then the quarians can't turn the Geth towards the Reapers.  As simple a solution as there can be.

But that doesn't solve the problem of the geth joining the Reapers of their own accord.

No evidence that they would in absence of the Quarians.

There is their history of cooperation with the Reapers.  That's certainly better than any evidence we have that they wouldn't.

Quarian attempted genocide of the Geth resulted in a bunch of them being anti-Quarian, and especially since they were the only Organics they knew well, anti-Organic. If the Quarians hadn't tried to slaugher them, I doubt the Heretics would have been anywhere near as great an issue, even if they did exist.

And the second time was clearly done in response to the Quarians trying to slaughter them once more. So again, there is no evidence that the Geth would join the Reapers again if the Quarians were gone.

[KingZayd]

sw04ca wrote...

No geth were civilians. They were appliances.

If you can choose to not recognise the initial Geth as civilians, they don't have to recognise the Quarians as civilians either.

No Quarians were civilians. They were mobile biofuel.

Modifié par KingZayd, 06 décembre 2012 - 11:34 .

[sw04ca]

Actually, your first point implies that the geth are psychologically predisposed to joining the Reapers because of past actions, no matter what happens to the quarians. That makes the destruction of the geth right an even better idea.

[KingZayd]

sw04ca wrote...

Actually, your first point implies that the geth are psychologically predisposed to joining the Reapers because of past actions, no matter what happens to the quarians. That makes the destruction of the geth right an even better idea.

Only a faction, which we either destroyed, or manipulated if we did Legion's mission. Would have been a better idea, but not anymore.

Modifié par KingZayd, 06 décembre 2012 - 11:37 .

[D4rkSektor]

KingZayd wrote...

Burden lies on the organic beings  that attempted to slaughter billions of Geth, all of whom were civillians at the time.

If the people in question tried to shoot you first? no. It wouldn't.

Is that your tactic? Copy my argument and modify it? How clever of you.

One Geth platform does not equal one organic being. They are networked intelligence. A destroyed platform does not mean the programs it contained "died." If they were invdividual robots, each one with AI-level intelligence, then it would, but they aren't.
In a war, the burden of proof of wanting peace lies with the faction that used excessive force to defeat their enemy. Slaughtering billions of Quarians before stopping is far and away more than what was required to defeat them. Thus, the Geth appeared to be mindless killing machines, reinforced by their unwillingness to communicate with Council envoys.

Modifié par D4rkSektor, 06 décembre 2012 - 11:40 .

[DeinonSlayer]

KingZayd wrote...

sw04ca wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
If the Quarians are destroyed, then the quarians can't turn the Geth towards the Reapers.  As simple a solution as there can be.

But that doesn't solve the problem of the geth joining the Reapers of their own accord.

No evidence that they would in absence of the Quarians.

They did it because their existence was threatened by organics, not because it was threatened by the Quarians specifically. Had it been a Turian or Human fleet attacking them, they'd do the same thing - they wouldn't allow themselves to be destroyed. The Quarians had their reasons to attack. What you think of those reasons doesn't change what they are.

Not sure if you're trying to invert someone else's logic to make it sound stupid, or if you actually believe this crap...

[KingZayd]

D4rkSektor wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Burden lies on the organic beings  that attempted to slaughter billions of Geth, all of whom were civillians at the time.

If the people in question tried to shoot you first? no. It wouldn't.

Is that your tactic? Copy my argument and modify it? How clever of you.

One Geth platform does not equal one organic being. They are networked intelligence. A destroyed platform does not mean the programs it contained "died." If they were invdividual robots, each one with AI-level intelligence, then it would, but they aren't.
In a war, the burden of proof of wanting peace lies with the faction that used excessive force to defeat their enemy. Slaughtering billions of Quarians before stopping is far and away more than what was required to defeat them. Thus, the Geth appeared to be mindless killing machines, reinforced by their unwillingness to communicate to Council envoys.

I find it's a good way to help people understand your argument.

Did the Quarians surrender? The Quarians tried to slaugher them all. The only thing that saved the Geth, is that the Geth were better slaugherers.

The Geth could easily have crushed the remaining Quarians if that was what they really wanted. They did not. The Quarians on the other hand, would not have held back.

Each Geth is more intelligent the more other Geth there are in close proximity. Their intelligence is no less valid that those which come about by different mechanisms.

[KingZayd]

Calinstel wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Calinstel wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Calinstel wrote...

So, it was before the actual war.  Batarian space doesn't count as that was lost 6 months or so prior.

Now, Admiral Gerrel or was it Admiral Raan, stated the war with the geth started 17 days prior to Shepard meeting them.  17 days for the geth to contact the Reapers, build a facility to house one and then let a Reaper land on Rannoch.  Yet still alost their entire dyson sphere get blown up before the Reapers help?

It does not add up.  The Reaper must have been on Rannoch well before the Migrant fleet entered the system or they would have known about it.  Since the Dyson Sphere was destroyed only after the fleet entered Tikkun, the geth were not aligned (controlled) by the Reaper as shown by the quarians actually winning at this point.

So my issue goes back to the original issue.  The geth had already aligned themselves with the Reapers before Legion indicates they needed to.

Wait.. why are we starting the 17 days before Shepard met the quarians, and not at any point in the 6 months before? You lost me on that step.

The timeline (screwy though it may be) is:
~ 6 months prior to ME3, Reapers invade Batarian space
Start of ME3 - 1 hour, Reapers are still in Batarian space and no galactic community (other than the Batarians) know the Reapers are actually here.
Reapers hit Earth, Shepard runs away screaming like a little gurly (Sorry, joking here) to Mars and then the Citadel all within about 1 day or less.
On the Citadel, the first message you can read as a Spetre is the quarians are doing something.
So, before the Reapers hit Earth, the quarians are on the move.

The timeline as I see it from in game information.

What Shepard did in Batarian space is well known.  Different species believed him different amounts.

This line: So, before the Reapers hit Earth, the quarians are on the move.
seems to clash with this one: Start of ME3 - 1 hour, Reapers are still in Batarian space and no galactic community (other than the Batarians) know the Reapers are actually here.

What Shepard did, you are correct, but what the Reapers did?
They locked Shepard up, took his ship, and never once (it appears) checked to see if the Reapers invaded.

As to your second point, I mean, 1 hour before the start of ME3, the Reapers were still in Batarian space (for all we know) and not roaming the Galaxy, hence the surprise attack on Earth

Basically, with the chronology just established, via ingame reference, Legion is lying.
The Reaper was already on Rannoch before the start of the war or, at in the very least, before the quarians entered Tikkun system. 

Except the Quarians wouldn't have been mobilising to attack the Geth so that they could house their civillians on Rannoch, while they fought the Reapers if they didn't think the Reapers were in the galaxy.

Just because the Alliance and Shepard didn't have any knowledge of Reaper movement outside of Batarian space doesn't mean nobody else did.

Your chronology has no basis, as you are claiming that since neither the Council nor the Alliance knew of any Reaper activity outside of Batarian space before Earth, that there was no Reaper activity outside of Batarian Space.

[KingZayd]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

sw04ca wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
If the Quarians are destroyed, then the quarians can't turn the Geth towards the Reapers.  As simple a solution as there can be.

But that doesn't solve the problem of the geth joining the Reapers of their own accord.

No evidence that they would in absence of the Quarians.

They did it because their existence was threatened by organics, not because it was threatened by the Quarians specifically. Had it been a Turian or Human fleet attacking them, they'd do the same thing - they wouldn't allow themselves to be destroyed. The Quarians had their reasons to attack. What you think of those reasons doesn't change what they are.

Not sure if you're trying to invert someone else's logic to make it sound stupid, or if you actually believe this crap...

They felt their existence was threatened by Organics because the Quarians attacked them, and that was their only interaction with Organics at that point.

The Geth had their reasons to join with the Reapers. What you think of those reasons doesn't change what those reasons were.

[D4rkSektor]

KingZayd wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Burden lies on the organic beings  that attempted to slaughter billions of Geth, all of whom were civillians at the time.

If the people in question tried to shoot you first? no. It wouldn't.

Is that your tactic? Copy my argument and modify it? How clever of you.

One Geth platform does not equal one organic being. They are networked intelligence. A destroyed platform does not mean the programs it contained "died." If they were invdividual robots, each one with AI-level intelligence, then it would, but they aren't.
In a war, the burden of proof of wanting peace lies with the faction that used excessive force to defeat their enemy. Slaughtering billions of Quarians before stopping is far and away more than what was required to defeat them. Thus, the Geth appeared to be mindless killing machines, reinforced by their unwillingness to communicate to Council envoys.

I find it's a good way to help people understand your argument.

Did the Quarians surrender? The Quarians tried to slaugher them all. The only thing that saved the Geth, is that the Geth were better slaugherers.

The Geth could easily have crushed the remaining Quarians if that was what they really wanted. They did not. The Quarians on the other hand, would not have held back.

Each Geth is more intelligent the more other Geth there are in close proximity. Their intelligence is no less valid that those which come about by different mechanisms.

Once again, any other race would have done the same thing. Any other race would have attempted to kill every single Geth just the same. The Quarians effectively surrendered by fleeing. Whether or not they tried to do so before that is unknown to us, so don't assume.
You're right, the Geth could have killed off the Quarians, but the only reason why they didn't is because they could not reach consensus on the repercussions.
Any organic race would not have held back, as once again, AI are considered dangerous in the ME universe.
The mechanism of how you achieve intelligence does matter. Destroying a Geth platform does not necessarily destroy the programs that run on it. Plus, a single Geth is about as intelligent as a Varren. Are you suggesting that to kill a Varren is the same as killing a Quarian?

[KingZayd]

D4rkSektor wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Burden lies on the organic beings  that attempted to slaughter billions of Geth, all of whom were civillians at the time.

If the people in question tried to shoot you first? no. It wouldn't.

Is that your tactic? Copy my argument and modify it? How clever of you.

One Geth platform does not equal one organic being. They are networked intelligence. A destroyed platform does not mean the programs it contained "died." If they were invdividual robots, each one with AI-level intelligence, then it would, but they aren't.
In a war, the burden of proof of wanting peace lies with the faction that used excessive force to defeat their enemy. Slaughtering billions of Quarians before stopping is far and away more than what was required to defeat them. Thus, the Geth appeared to be mindless killing machines, reinforced by their unwillingness to communicate to Council envoys.

I find it's a good way to help people understand your argument.

Did the Quarians surrender? The Quarians tried to slaugher them all. The only thing that saved the Geth, is that the Geth were better slaugherers.

The Geth could easily have crushed the remaining Quarians if that was what they really wanted. They did not. The Quarians on the other hand, would not have held back.

Each Geth is more intelligent the more other Geth there are in close proximity. Their intelligence is no less valid that those which come about by different mechanisms.

Once again, any other race would have done the same thing. Any other race would have attempted to kill every single Geth just the same. The Quarians effectively surrendered by fleeing. Whether or not they tried to do so before that is unknown to us, so don't assume.
You're right, the Geth could have killed off the Quarians, but the only reason why they didn't is because they could not reach consensus on the repercussions.
Any organic race would not have held back, as once again, AI are considered dangerous in the ME universe.
The mechanism of how you achieve intelligence does matter. Destroying a Geth platform does not necessarily destroy the programs that run on it. Plus, a single Geth is about as intelligent as a Varren. Are you suggesting that to kill a Varren is the same as killing a Quarian?

It does if you destroy all the platforms. If you destroy all the platforms, and all the other containers, as the Geth would have tried, would have destroyed ALL the programs.

The Geth together are more intelligent than the Quarians together. By similiar logic, genocide of the Geth is far worse than genocide of the Quarians.

[DeinonSlayer]

KingZayd wrote...

They felt their existence was threatened by Organics because the Quarians attacked them, and that was their only interaction with Organics at that point.

The Geth had their reasons to join with the Reapers. What you think of those reasons doesn't change what those reasons were.

I never disputed their reasons for doing so.

Still, you have to admit this is a rather childish debate tactic.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 07 décembre 2012 - 12:04 .

[KingZayd]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

sw04ca wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
If the Quarians are destroyed, then the quarians can't turn the Geth towards the Reapers.  As simple a solution as there can be.

But that doesn't solve the problem of the geth joining the Reapers of their own accord.

No evidence that they would in absence of the Quarians.

They did it because their existence was threatened by organics, not because it was threatened by the Quarians specifically. Had it been a Turian or Human fleet attacking them, they'd do the same thing - they wouldn't allow themselves to be destroyed. The Quarians had their reasons to attack. What you think of those reasons doesn't change what they are.

Not sure if you're trying to invert someone else's logic to make it sound stupid, or if you actually believe this crap...

They felt their existence was threatened by Organics because the Quarians attacked them, and that was their only interaction with Organics at that point.

The Geth had their reasons to join with the Reapers. What you think of those reasons doesn't change what those reasons were.

I never disputed their reasons for doing so.

TStill, you have to admit this is a rather childish debate tactic.

Why is it childish? It's a logical way of representing the other side of things.

[DeinonSlayer]

"I know you are, but what am I." Strawman, moral equivalency delivered with a hammer without consideration of extenuating factors for its own sake. You get the picture.

I know you can do better than this. Try.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 07 décembre 2012 - 12:08 .