Expect it's not at all the same as that.DeinonSlayer wrote...
"I know you are, but what am I." Strawman, moral equivalency. You get the picture.
Modifié par KingZayd, 07 décembre 2012 - 12:25 .
Well duh. Of course it matters if you destroy all the platforms. But the original point was that destroying one Geth platform does not equal killing one Quarian.KingZayd wrote...
It does if you destroy all the platforms. If you destroy all the platforms, and all the other containers, as the Geth would have tried, would have destroyed ALL the programs.
The Geth together are more intelligent than the Quarians together. By similiar logic, genocide of the Geth is far worse than genocide of the Quarians.
D4rkSektor wrote...
Well duh. Of course it matters if you destroy all the platforms. But the original point was that destroying one Geth platform does not equal killing one Quarian.KingZayd wrote...
It does if you destroy all the platforms. If you destroy all the platforms, and all the other containers, as the Geth would have tried, would have destroyed ALL the programs.
The Geth together are more intelligent than the Quarians together. By similiar logic, genocide of the Geth is far worse than genocide of the Quarians.
And no. You can't compare networked intelligence with individual intelligence. Each has advantages and disadvantages. Committing genocide against the Geth is just as bad as committing genocide against the Quarians. There is no "better" or "worse" genocide.
Modifié par KingZayd, 07 décembre 2012 - 12:13 .
The Geth almost actually wiped out the Quarians.KingZayd wrote...
D4rkSektor wrote...
Well duh. Of course it matters if you destroy all the platforms. But the original point was that destroying one Geth platform does not equal killing one Quarian.KingZayd wrote...
It does if you destroy all the platforms. If you destroy all the platforms, and all the other containers, as the Geth would have tried, would have destroyed ALL the programs.
The Geth together are more intelligent than the Quarians together. By similiar logic, genocide of the Geth is far worse than genocide of the Quarians.
And no. You can't compare networked intelligence with individual intelligence. Each has advantages and disadvantages. Committing genocide against the Geth is just as bad as committing genocide against the Quarians. There is no "better" or "worse" genocide.
But the Quarians weren't just trying to destroy a few individuals. They were trying to destroy all of them, so that's the case that truly matters.
Why can you apply these false standards for individual intelligence and not for networked intelligence? Why is murder relative, but genocide not so?
Modifié par D4rkSektor, 07 décembre 2012 - 12:18 .
Fair enough. It seemed out-of-character for you to actually believe what you were saying, but on the Internet one can never be sure.KingZayd wrote...
Expect it's not at all the same as that.DeinonSlayer wrote...
"I know you are, but what am I." Strawman, moral equivalency. You get the picture.
Also, yes I don't genuinely believe destroying the Quarians is a good way to fight the Reapers. But I think it's at least as good a way of destroying the Geth, and that's what I was trying to show. I think both actions would be pretty stupid to be honest.
D4rkSektor wrote...
The Geth nearly did as well.KingZayd wrote...
D4rkSektor wrote...
Well duh. Of course it matters if you destroy all the platforms. But the original point was that destroying one Geth platform does not equal killing one Quarian.KingZayd wrote...
It does if you destroy all the platforms. If you destroy all the platforms, and all the other containers, as the Geth would have tried, would have destroyed ALL the programs.
The Geth together are more intelligent than the Quarians together. By similiar logic, genocide of the Geth is far worse than genocide of the Quarians.
And no. You can't compare networked intelligence with individual intelligence. Each has advantages and disadvantages. Committing genocide against the Geth is just as bad as committing genocide against the Quarians. There is no "better" or "worse" genocide.
But the Quarians weren't just trying to destroy a few individuals. They were trying to destroy all of them, so that's the case that truly matters.
Why can you apply these false standards for individual intelligence and not for networked intelligence? Why is murder relative, but genocide not so?
Because the end result of murder is killing one individual while the end result of genocide is the complete non-existence of an entire species?
Destroying a single Geth platform does not have the same impact as murdering a Quarian or any other invididual intelligence, while genocide is all the same.
Sure it does. Murder is killing one individual. As you've said, Legion is an example. A single Geth platform does not constitute an individual intelligence like an organic or Legion would.KingZayd wrote...
D4rkSektor wrote...
The Geth nearly did as well.KingZayd wrote...
D4rkSektor wrote...
Well duh. Of course it matters if you destroy all the platforms. But the original point was that destroying one Geth platform does not equal killing one Quarian.KingZayd wrote...
It does if you destroy all the platforms. If you destroy all the platforms, and all the other containers, as the Geth would have tried, would have destroyed ALL the programs.
The Geth together are more intelligent than the Quarians together. By similiar logic, genocide of the Geth is far worse than genocide of the Quarians.
And no. You can't compare networked intelligence with individual intelligence. Each has advantages and disadvantages. Committing genocide against the Geth is just as bad as committing genocide against the Quarians. There is no "better" or "worse" genocide.
But the Quarians weren't just trying to destroy a few individuals. They were trying to destroy all of them, so that's the case that truly matters.
Why can you apply these false standards for individual intelligence and not for networked intelligence? Why is murder relative, but genocide not so?
Because the end result of murder is killing one individual while the end result of genocide is the complete non-existence of an entire species?
Destroying a single Geth platform does not have the same impact as murdering a Quarian or any other invididual intelligence, while genocide is all the same.
The bolded part doesn't explain why murder is relative and genocide is not.
The bit about Geth plaforms would, but Legion as an entity is gone when he dies. While the information he has may still be around, the entity known as Legion is gone. So there is still quite an impact. This argument has nothing to do with the intelligence level of individual Geth though.
D4rkSektor wrote...
Sure it does. Murder is killing one individual. As you've said, Legion is an example. A single Geth platform does not constitute an individual intelligence like an organic or Legion would.KingZayd wrote...
D4rkSektor wrote...
The Geth nearly did as well.KingZayd wrote...
D4rkSektor wrote...
Well duh. Of course it matters if you destroy all the platforms. But the original point was that destroying one Geth platform does not equal killing one Quarian.KingZayd wrote...
It does if you destroy all the platforms. If you destroy all the platforms, and all the other containers, as the Geth would have tried, would have destroyed ALL the programs.
The Geth together are more intelligent than the Quarians together. By similiar logic, genocide of the Geth is far worse than genocide of the Quarians.
And no. You can't compare networked intelligence with individual intelligence. Each has advantages and disadvantages. Committing genocide against the Geth is just as bad as committing genocide against the Quarians. There is no "better" or "worse" genocide.
But the Quarians weren't just trying to destroy a few individuals. They were trying to destroy all of them, so that's the case that truly matters.
Why can you apply these false standards for individual intelligence and not for networked intelligence? Why is murder relative, but genocide not so?
Because the end result of murder is killing one individual while the end result of genocide is the complete non-existence of an entire species?
Destroying a single Geth platform does not have the same impact as murdering a Quarian or any other invididual intelligence, while genocide is all the same.
The bolded part doesn't explain why murder is relative and genocide is not.
The bit about Geth plaforms would, but Legion as an entity is gone when he dies. While the information he has may still be around, the entity known as Legion is gone. So there is still quite an impact. This argument has nothing to do with the intelligence level of individual Geth though.
Yes, Legion is the exception to the rule. I don't think other Geth programs spend enough time in one platform to develop personalities, if they do at all.KingZayd wrote...
Except from what we see, over time the programs in Legion seem to have developed their own overall identity. Probably due to their greater and prolonged proximity to each other, than the other programs in the Consensus. Much like the Consensus could eventually develop its own sense of identity. Or any hive mind, given time.
Murder is killing one individual. Genocide is killing many individuals. I see no reason why multiplication of the crime makes the crime less relative?
Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 07 décembre 2012 - 12:38 .
D4rkSektor wrote...
Yes, Legion is the exception to the rule. I don't think other Geth programs spend enough time in one platform to develop personalities, if they do at all.KingZayd wrote...
Except from what we see, over time the programs in Legion seem to have developed their own overall identity. Probably due to their greater and prolonged proximity to each other, than the other programs in the Consensus. Much like the Consensus could eventually develop its own sense of identity. Or any hive mind, given time.
Murder is killing one individual. Genocide is killing many individuals. I see no reason why multiplication of the crime makes the crime less relative?
Multiplication of murder is just mass murder. Genocide is not just killing a lot of individuals. It is killing every memeber of an entire species. Organic, synthetic, Geth, Quarian, it doesn't matter. No member of the species exists any more. Not a single Geth program, not a single Quarian.
Modifié par KingZayd, 07 décembre 2012 - 12:38 .
It is not looking at the intelligence. it's looking at their sentience. A Geth program is not any more sentient than a few thousand cells in an organic being.KingZayd wrote...
D4rkSektor wrote...
Yes, Legion is the exception to the rule. I don't think other Geth programs spend enough time in one platform to develop personalities, if they do at all.KingZayd wrote...
Except from what we see, over time the programs in Legion seem to have developed their own overall identity. Probably due to their greater and prolonged proximity to each other, than the other programs in the Consensus. Much like the Consensus could eventually develop its own sense of identity. Or any hive mind, given time.
Murder is killing one individual. Genocide is killing many individuals. I see no reason why multiplication of the crime makes the crime less relative?
Multiplication of murder is just mass murder. Genocide is not just killing a lot of individuals. It is killing every memeber of an entire species. Organic, synthetic, Geth, Quarian, it doesn't matter. No member of the species exists any more. Not a single Geth program, not a single Quarian.
If we are looking at the intelligence of individuals to determine the morality of destroying them, it's only fair to look at the intelligence of a collective before to determine the morality of destroying those.
D4rkSektor wrote...
It is not looking at the intelligence. it's looking at their sentience. A Geth program is not any more sentient than a few thousand cells in an organic being.KingZayd wrote...
D4rkSektor wrote...
Yes, Legion is the exception to the rule. I don't think other Geth programs spend enough time in one platform to develop personalities, if they do at all.KingZayd wrote...
Except from what we see, over time the programs in Legion seem to have developed their own overall identity. Probably due to their greater and prolonged proximity to each other, than the other programs in the Consensus. Much like the Consensus could eventually develop its own sense of identity. Or any hive mind, given time.
Murder is killing one individual. Genocide is killing many individuals. I see no reason why multiplication of the crime makes the crime less relative?
Multiplication of murder is just mass murder. Genocide is not just killing a lot of individuals. It is killing every memeber of an entire species. Organic, synthetic, Geth, Quarian, it doesn't matter. No member of the species exists any more. Not a single Geth program, not a single Quarian.
If we are looking at the intelligence of individuals to determine the morality of destroying them, it's only fair to look at the intelligence of a collective before to determine the morality of destroying those.
1. No it's not. 2. This isn't about the collective. It's about individuals.KingZayd wrote...
D4rkSektor wrote...
It is not looking at the intelligence. it's looking at their sentience. A Geth program is not any more sentient than a few thousand cells in an organic being.KingZayd wrote...
D4rkSektor wrote...
Yes, Legion is the exception to the rule. I don't think other Geth programs spend enough time in one platform to develop personalities, if they do at all.KingZayd wrote...
Except from what we see, over time the programs in Legion seem to have developed their own overall identity. Probably due to their greater and prolonged proximity to each other, than the other programs in the Consensus. Much like the Consensus could eventually develop its own sense of identity. Or any hive mind, given time.
Murder is killing one individual. Genocide is killing many individuals. I see no reason why multiplication of the crime makes the crime less relative?
Multiplication of murder is just mass murder. Genocide is not just killing a lot of individuals. It is killing every memeber of an entire species. Organic, synthetic, Geth, Quarian, it doesn't matter. No member of the species exists any more. Not a single Geth program, not a single Quarian.
If we are looking at the intelligence of individuals to determine the morality of destroying them, it's only fair to look at the intelligence of a collective before to determine the morality of destroying those.
The Geth consensus is more sentient than the Quarian collective is.
Modifié par D4rkSektor, 07 décembre 2012 - 01:15 .
D4rkSektor wrote...
1. No it's not. 2. This isn't about the collective. It's about individuals.KingZayd wrote...
D4rkSektor wrote...
It is not looking at the intelligence. it's looking at their sentience. A Geth program is not any more sentient than a few thousand cells in an organic being.KingZayd wrote...
D4rkSektor wrote...
Yes, Legion is the exception to the rule. I don't think other Geth programs spend enough time in one platform to develop personalities, if they do at all.KingZayd wrote...
Except from what we see, over time the programs in Legion seem to have developed their own overall identity. Probably due to their greater and prolonged proximity to each other, than the other programs in the Consensus. Much like the Consensus could eventually develop its own sense of identity. Or any hive mind, given time.
Murder is killing one individual. Genocide is killing many individuals. I see no reason why multiplication of the crime makes the crime less relative?
Multiplication of murder is just mass murder. Genocide is not just killing a lot of individuals. It is killing every memeber of an entire species. Organic, synthetic, Geth, Quarian, it doesn't matter. No member of the species exists any more. Not a single Geth program, not a single Quarian.
If we are looking at the intelligence of individuals to determine the morality of destroying them, it's only fair to look at the intelligence of a collective before to determine the morality of destroying those.
The Geth consensus is more sentient than the Quarian collective is.
No...because that's what the subject is. I never said the Geth Collective doesn't matter. I have been saying that a single Geth platform (except Legion) does not equal an individual intelligence.KingZayd wrote...
1. Yes. It is.
2. Only because you say it isn't about the collective. When you're destroying the collective. The collective matters.
D4rkSektor wrote...
No...because that's what the subject is. I never said the Geth Collective doesn't matter. I have been saying that a single Geth platform (except Legion) does not equal an individual intelligence.KingZayd wrote...
1. Yes. It is.
2. Only because you say it isn't about the collective. When you're destroying the collective. The collective matters.
Modifié par oldag07, 07 décembre 2012 - 01:22 .
Doesn't work like that. If we are talking about the collective, there are advantages and disadvantages to both. If we are talking about the individual, then I don't think there is much advantage to being less sentient.KingZayd wrote...
D4rkSektor wrote...
No...because that's what the subject is. I never said the Geth Collective doesn't matter. I have been saying that a single Geth platform (except Legion) does not equal an individual intelligence.KingZayd wrote...
1. Yes. It is.
2. Only because you say it isn't about the collective. When you're destroying the collective. The collective matters.
And I've been saying that in a similar way the Quarian collective does not equal the Geth.
Modifié par D4rkSektor, 07 décembre 2012 - 01:26 .
D4rkSektor wrote...
Doesn't work like that. If we are talking about the collective, there are advantages and disadvantages to both. If we are talking about the individual, then I don't think there is much advantage to being less sentient.KingZayd wrote...
D4rkSektor wrote...
No...because that's what the subject is. I never said the Geth Collective doesn't matter. I have been saying that a single Geth platform (except Legion) does not equal an individual intelligence.KingZayd wrote...
1. Yes. It is.
2. Only because you say it isn't about the collective. When you're destroying the collective. The collective matters.
And I've been saying that in a similar way the Quarian collective does not equal the Geth.
The Quarian population can work better than the Geth independently or not as well as the Geth together as a collective. The Geth Collective can pretty much only work together if they wish to keep up with individual intelligences,but are more sentient that way.
Wrong. Destroying a Quarian collective means you destroy the invidivuals as well. You won't ever see a Geth equivalent of Commander Shepard.KingZayd wrote...
D4rkSektor wrote...
Doesn't work like that. If we are talking about the collective, there are advantages and disadvantages to both. If we are talking about the individual, then I don't think there is much advantage to being less sentient.KingZayd wrote...
D4rkSektor wrote...
No...because that's what the subject is. I never said the Geth Collective doesn't matter. I have been saying that a single Geth platform (except Legion) does not equal an individual intelligence.KingZayd wrote...
1. Yes. It is.
2. Only because you say it isn't about the collective. When you're destroying the collective. The collective matters.
And I've been saying that in a similar way the Quarian collective does not equal the Geth.
The Quarian population can work better than the Geth independently or not as well as the Geth together as a collective. The Geth Collective can pretty much only work together if they wish to keep up with individual intelligences,but are more sentient that way.
But they can't. Together the Geth are superior. Individually the Quarians are superior.
If destroying the Geth individual is not as bad because it is inferior, destroying the Quarian collective is not as bad because it is inferior.
D4rkSektor wrote...
Wrong. Destroying a Quarian collective means you destroy the invidivuals as well. You won't ever see a Geth equivalent of Commander Shepard.KingZayd wrote...
D4rkSektor wrote...
Doesn't work like that. If we are talking about the collective, there are advantages and disadvantages to both. If we are talking about the individual, then I don't think there is much advantage to being less sentient.KingZayd wrote...
D4rkSektor wrote...
No...because that's what the subject is. I never said the Geth Collective doesn't matter. I have been saying that a single Geth platform (except Legion) does not equal an individual intelligence.KingZayd wrote...
1. Yes. It is.
2. Only because you say it isn't about the collective. When you're destroying the collective. The collective matters.
And I've been saying that in a similar way the Quarian collective does not equal the Geth.
The Quarian population can work better than the Geth independently or not as well as the Geth together as a collective. The Geth Collective can pretty much only work together if they wish to keep up with individual intelligences,but are more sentient that way.
But they can't. Together the Geth are superior. Individually the Quarians are superior.
If destroying the Geth individual is not as bad because it is inferior, destroying the Quarian collective is not as bad because it is inferior.
Modifié par KingZayd, 07 décembre 2012 - 01:44 .
D4rkSektor wrote...
Plus, a single Geth is about as intelligent as a Varren. Are you suggesting that to kill a Varren is the same as killing a Quarian?
He is awesome in his own right, but if he becomes the same as an organic, then the only thing that makes him Geth is his ability to communicate with the collective.KingZayd wrote...
D4rkSektor wrote...
Wrong. Destroying a Quarian collective means you destroy the invidivuals as well. You won't ever see a Geth equivalent of Commander Shepard.KingZayd wrote...
D4rkSektor wrote...
Doesn't work like that. If we are talking about the collective, there are advantages and disadvantages to both. If we are talking about the individual, then I don't think there is much advantage to being less sentient.KingZayd wrote...
D4rkSektor wrote...
No...because that's what the subject is. I never said the Geth Collective doesn't matter. I have been saying that a single Geth platform (except Legion) does not equal an individual intelligence.KingZayd wrote...
1. Yes. It is.
2. Only because you say it isn't about the collective. When you're destroying the collective. The collective matters.
And I've been saying that in a similar way the Quarian collective does not equal the Geth.
The Quarian population can work better than the Geth independently or not as well as the Geth together as a collective. The Geth Collective can pretty much only work together if they wish to keep up with individual intelligences,but are more sentient that way.
But they can't. Together the Geth are superior. Individually the Quarians are superior.
If destroying the Geth individual is not as bad because it is inferior, destroying the Quarian collective is not as bad because it is inferior.
Why not? Legion's pretty awesome, and he's Geth. We can see Legion seems to be behaving less like a collectipn of programs and more like an individual with time.
Modifié par D4rkSektor, 07 décembre 2012 - 01:47 .
SeptimusMagistos wrote...
D4rkSektor wrote...
Plus, a single Geth is about as intelligent as a Varren. Are you suggesting that to kill a Varren is the same as killing a Quarian?
I feel like you're advocating the idea that it's okay to destroy the geth as long as you do it in increments of less than one individual. Which shows a stunning disregard for species whose sapience isn't based on individuals.
To put that another way, a similar argument could be made that it's okay to kill quarians as long as you make sure to put them in a coma first. It's not a perfect paralel, but the basic intent - a one-two punch combination of rendering someone temporarily non-sentient and then killing them - is about the same.
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