1059 réponses à ce sujet

[KingZayd]

D4rkSektor wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
1. Yes. It is.
2. Only because you say it isn't about the collective. When you're destroying the collective. The collective matters.

No...because that's what the subject is. I never said the Geth Collective doesn't matter. I have been saying that a single Geth platform (except Legion) does not equal an individual intelligence.

And I've been saying that in a similar way the Quarian collective does not equal the Geth.

Doesn't work like that. If we are talking about the collective, there are advantages and disadvantages to both. If we are talking about the individual, then I don't think there is much advantage to being less sentient.

The Quarian population can work better than the Geth independently or not as well as the Geth together as a collective. The Geth Collective can pretty much only work together if they wish to keep up with individual intelligences,but are more sentient that way.

But they can't. Together the Geth are superior. Individually the Quarians are superior.
If destroying the Geth individual is not as bad because it is inferior, destroying the Quarian collective is not as bad because it is inferior.

Wrong. Destroying a Quarian collective means you destroy the invidivuals as well. You won't ever see a Geth equivalent of Commander Shepard.

Why not?  Legion's pretty awesome, and he's Geth. We can see Legion seems to be behaving less like a collectipn of programs and more like an individual with time.

He is awesome in his own right, but if he becomes the same as an organic, then the only thing that makes him Geth is his ability to communicate with the collective.
And once again, he is the exception. The Geth do not want to be like organics. They wanted to build a Dyson Sphere and effectively abandon their platforms.

How does that make him any less synthetic and more organic. He's still Geth through and through. Being like Legion =/= being like Organics?

That'd be like calling EDI organic.

Modifié par KingZayd, 07 décembre 2012 - 01:50 .

[D4rkSektor]

KingZayd wrote...

How does that make him any less synthetic and more organic. He's still Geth through and through. Being like Legion =/= being like Organics?

That'd be like calling EDI organic.

Organic as in having emotions and what not.

[D4rkSektor]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...
Plus, a single Geth is about as intelligent as a Varren. Are you suggesting that to kill a Varren is the same as killing a Quarian?

I feel like you're advocating the idea that it's okay to destroy the geth as long as you do it in increments of less than one individual. Which shows a stunning disregard for species whose sapience isn't based on individuals.

To put that another way, a similar argument could be made that it's okay to kill quarians as long as you make sure to put them in a coma first. It's not a perfect paralel, but the basic intent - a one-two punch combination of rendering someone temporarily non-sentient and then killing them - is about the same.

Absolutely not. Please don't take my posts out of context.

[KingZayd]

D4rkSektor wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

How does that make him any less synthetic and more organic. He's still Geth through and through. Being like Legion =/= being like Organics?

That'd be like calling EDI organic.

Organic as in having emotions and what not.

And what do emotions necessarily have to do with Carbon?

[SeptimusMagistos]

D4rkSektor wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...
Plus, a single Geth is about as intelligent as a Varren. Are you suggesting that to kill a Varren is the same as killing a Quarian?

I feel like you're advocating the idea that it's okay to destroy the geth as long as you do it in increments of less than one individual. Which shows a stunning disregard for species whose sapience isn't based on individuals.

To put that another way, a similar argument could be made that it's okay to kill quarians as long as you make sure to put them in a coma first. It's not a perfect paralel, but the basic intent - a one-two punch combination of rendering someone temporarily non-sentient and then killing them - is about the same.

Absolutely not. Please don't take my posts out of context.

So what exactly are you saying? That it only counts as murder if you kill a thousand or more geth runtimes? Or that all thousand have to be in the same platform before it counts?

[D4rkSektor]

KingZayd wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

How does that make him any less synthetic and more organic. He's still Geth through and through. Being like Legion =/= being like Organics?

That'd be like calling EDI organic.

Organic as in having emotions and what not.

And what do emotions necessarily have to do with Carbon?

In the Mass Effect universe, organics generally tend to have emotions while synthetics do not (or are just starting to develop emotions, as with Legion).

[D4rkSektor]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...
Plus, a single Geth is about as intelligent as a Varren. Are you suggesting that to kill a Varren is the same as killing a Quarian?

I feel like you're advocating the idea that it's okay to destroy the geth as long as you do it in increments of less than one individual. Which shows a stunning disregard for species whose sapience isn't based on individuals.

To put that another way, a similar argument could be made that it's okay to kill quarians as long as you make sure to put them in a coma first. It's not a perfect paralel, but the basic intent - a one-two punch combination of rendering someone temporarily non-sentient and then killing them - is about the same.

Absolutely not. Please don't take my posts out of context.

So what exactly are you saying? That it only counts as murder if you kill a thousand or more geth runtimes? Or that all thousand have to be in the same platform before it counts?

I am not going to recite everything I said in this thread.

[KingZayd]

D4rkSektor wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

How does that make him any less synthetic and more organic. He's still Geth through and through. Being like Legion =/= being like Organics?

That'd be like calling EDI organic.

Organic as in having emotions and what not.

And what do emotions necessarily have to do with Carbon?

In the Mass Effect universe, organics generally tend to have emotions while synthetics do not (or are just starting to develop emotions, as with Legion).

Well we don't see Varren displaying complex emotions either, and they're just as organic as Humans and the Quarians are.

So Legion is not becoming more like organics.

Modifié par KingZayd, 07 décembre 2012 - 02:03 .

[D4rkSektor]

KingZayd wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

How does that make him any less synthetic and more organic. He's still Geth through and through. Being like Legion =/= being like Organics?

That'd be like calling EDI organic.

Organic as in having emotions and what not.

And what do emotions necessarily have to do with Carbon?

In the Mass Effect universe, organics generally tend to have emotions while synthetics do not (or are just starting to develop emotions, as with Legion).

Well we don't see Varren displaying complex emotions either, and they're just as organic as Humans and the Quarians are.

So Legion is not becoming more like organics.

For ****'s sake. Do I have to spell it out? Legion could be becoming more like organics like Quarians, Turians, Humans, etc. Organics with complex emotions.

Modifié par D4rkSektor, 07 décembre 2012 - 02:08 .

[SeptimusMagistos]

D4rkSektor wrote...

I am not going to recite everything I said in this thread.

Well, the main thing  you've said so far is that destroying a geth platform isn't as bad as killing an organic. If we accept this premise as true, where do we go from there, morally speaking? If it takes 1,000 geth to form a networked intelligence equivalent to an individual, do we accept that killing a single geth runtime is 1/1,000th times as wrong as killing an organic individual? Can we fudge the numbers by saying it only takes 800 runtimes even though the resulting individual would be kind of dumb?

[D4rkSektor]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

I am not going to recite everything I said in this thread.

Well, the main thing  you've said so far is that destroying a geth platform isn't as bad as killing an organic. If we accept this premise as true, where do we go from there, morally speaking? If it takes 1,000 geth to form a networked intelligence equivalent to an individual, do we accept that killing a single geth runtime is 1/1,000th times as wrong as killing an organic individual? Can we fudge the numbers by saying it only takes 800 runtimes even though the resulting individual would be kind of dumb?

No. It's not. That's just where you picked up. If you really want to know, go back and look at what I posted.

[KingZayd]

D4rkSektor wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

How does that make him any less synthetic and more organic. He's still Geth through and through. Being like Legion =/= being like Organics?

That'd be like calling EDI organic.

Organic as in having emotions and what not.

And what do emotions necessarily have to do with Carbon?

In the Mass Effect universe, organics generally tend to have emotions while synthetics do not (or are just starting to develop emotions, as with Legion).

Well we don't see Varren displaying complex emotions either, and they're just as organic as Humans and the Quarians are.

So Legion is not becoming more like organics.

For ****'s sake. Do I have to spell it out? Legion could be becoming more like organics like Quarians, Turians, Humans, etc.

Legion is becoming more of an invidual entity. Is that what you mean?

Anyway, the fact still remains. The Geth collective is superior to the Quarian collective, and therefore, if murdering an inferior individual (Geth) is not as bad, murdering an inferior collective (Quarian) is also not as bad.

Modifié par KingZayd, 07 décembre 2012 - 02:11 .

[SeptimusMagistos]

D4rkSektor wrote...

No. It's not. That's just where you picked up. If you really want to know, go back and look at what I posted.

I have. The only thing you've really said on the subject is that destroying one geth platform doesn't have the same impact as killing one quarians.

Which, again, is fine. But where do we go from there?

[D4rkSektor]

KingZayd wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

How does that make him any less synthetic and more organic. He's still Geth through and through. Being like Legion =/= being like Organics?

That'd be like calling EDI organic.

Organic as in having emotions and what not.

And what do emotions necessarily have to do with Carbon?

In the Mass Effect universe, organics generally tend to have emotions while synthetics do not (or are just starting to develop emotions, as with Legion).

Well we don't see Varren displaying complex emotions either, and they're just as organic as Humans and the Quarians are.

So Legion is not becoming more like organics.

For ****'s sake. Do I have to spell it out? Legion could be becoming more like organics like Quarians, Turians, Humans, etc.

Legion is becoming more of an invidual entity. Is that what you mean?

Anyway, the fact still remains. The Geth collective is superior to the Quarian collective, and therefore, if murdering an inferior individual (Geth) is not as bad, murdering an inferior collective (Quarian) is also not as bad.

It's like you completely ignored what I said before...

[KingZayd]

D4rkSektor wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

How does that make him any less synthetic and more organic. He's still Geth through and through. Being like Legion =/= being like Organics?

That'd be like calling EDI organic.

Organic as in having emotions and what not.

And what do emotions necessarily have to do with Carbon?

In the Mass Effect universe, organics generally tend to have emotions while synthetics do not (or are just starting to develop emotions, as with Legion).

Well we don't see Varren displaying complex emotions either, and they're just as organic as Humans and the Quarians are.

So Legion is not becoming more like organics.

For ****'s sake. Do I have to spell it out? Legion could be becoming more like organics like Quarians, Turians, Humans, etc.

Legion is becoming more of an invidual entity. Is that what you mean?

Anyway, the fact still remains. The Geth collective is superior to the Quarian collective, and therefore, if murdering an inferior individual (Geth) is not as bad, murdering an inferior collective (Quarian) is also not as bad.

It's like you completely ignored what I said before...

No, I read what you said. You just didn't explain why looking at the individual capabilities is more valid than looking at the collective capabilities.

[D4rkSektor]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

No. It's not. That's just where you picked up. If you really want to know, go back and look at what I posted.

I have. The only thing you've really said on the subject is that destroying one geth platform doesn't have the same impact as killing one quarians.

Which, again, is fine. But where do we go from there?

Alright. Sorry, but I didn't actually read what you had posted a couple of minutes ago because I'm tired of repeating myself to the other guy.
Yes, I think it takes a certain number of Geth programs to equal an individual.

[D4rkSektor]

KingZayd wrote...

No, I read what you said. You just didn't explain why looking at the individual capabilities is more valid than looking at the collective capabilities.

It's not more valid.

[KingZayd]

D4rkSektor wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

No, I read what you said. You just didn't explain why looking at the individual capabilities is more valid than looking at the collective capabilities.

It's not more valid.

So why have you been arguing that destroying an inferior individual is not as bad, but saying that destroying the collectives is equal?

[SeptimusMagistos]

D4rkSektor wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

No. It's not. That's just where you picked up. If you really want to know, go back and look at what I posted.

I have. The only thing you've really said on the subject is that destroying one geth platform doesn't have the same impact as killing one quarians.

Which, again, is fine. But where do we go from there?

Alright. Sorry, but I didn't actually read what you had posted a couple of minutes ago because I'm tired of repeating myself to the other guy.
Yes, I think it takes a certain number of Geth programs to equal an individual.

So then does it only become wrong to destroy that number of geth runtimes when they're all in one platform, or is it destroying the same number of runtimes spread over several platform just as bad?

[DarthSliver]

Pantanplan wrote...

I choose peace everytime in Rannoch, and I like Legion's character, but you can't deny the fact that the geth slaughtered billions of innocents. They are presented as innocent and looking for guidance, and that the quarians are 100% responsible, but really, only 17 million quarians were left after the Morning War. Nothing, and I repeat, nothing justifies such slaughter. To all of you who support the geth and Legion's version of their history: how are the geth innocent and lost children, while the quarians the aggressive instigators who deserve genocide?
Beforethe Reaper code upload the geth were indvidual VI-like programs who only gained intelligence by grouping together. The quarians have families, children, civilians while the geth have none of this. When peace isn't an option, why do some save the geth and let the quarians die?

I have no need to read the rest of this thread the Quarians are at fault in ME3 truly and deeply. You lose to the Geth and your race barely survives so generations down the road you make the same mistake but this time it will cost you your whole race. Quarians in ME3 were asking to be killed when they attacked the Geth to try and get their homeworld back when there was a peace option by this time "presented by Legion" and lets leave that war in past so everything that was done there wont be blamed on the Quarians too. The "true Geth" turned to Reapers this time not the Geth again, remember Geth broke into two different groups with the group that followed Sovereign being the "Herectics". Now remember Legion said the Geth later tried to go make peace with the Quarians but everytime they did the Quarians destroyed them due to past history from the Morning War. 

Now lets break this down remember that Legion also saids in ME3 that the Geth turned to the Reapers because of the Quarian attack, they were happily minding their own business and were ruthlessly attacking by the Quarians which in turn destroyed their dyson sphere. They turned to the Reapers for survival nothing else and nothing less they didnt do it because they wanted to side with the Reapers, Reapers helped them survive and corrupted the Geth Network so the Geth would serve them.

Lets now throw the Morning War into this against the Quarians, the War was merely started because the Quarians feared the Council would discover what they created. They feared it because the Geth were showing signs of being an AI because they had taught the Geth so much. In short the Quarian Genocide has always been the fault of the Quarians not the Geth because the Geth were happy doing what they were doing living side by side with the Quarian people. They didnt understand why the Quarians started to attack them but the did take action to stop it because did they understand one thing and that is they didnt want to die. 

[D4rkSektor]

KingZayd wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

No, I read what you said. You just didn't explain why looking at the individual capabilities is more valid than looking at the collective capabilities.

It's not more valid.

So why have you been arguing that destroying an inferior individual is not as bad, but saying that destroying the collectives is equal?

Because a single Geth platform (not Legion) is less sentient than a Quarian, but with destroying the Geth collective or the Quarian population you're destroying every sentient being, no matter how they are divided up or organized.

[KingZayd]

D4rkSektor wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

No, I read what you said. You just didn't explain why looking at the individual capabilities is more valid than looking at the collective capabilities.

It's not more valid.

So why have you been arguing that destroying an inferior individual is not as bad, but saying that destroying the collectives is equal?

Because a single Geth platform (not Legion) is less sentient than a Quarian, but with destroying the Geth collective or the Quarian population you're destroying every sentient being, no matter how they are divided up or organized.

So? If you choose to look at it from the collective point of view, the Quarian population is not worth as much. And the collective point of view is just as valid as the individual.

[D4rkSektor]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

No. It's not. That's just where you picked up. If you really want to know, go back and look at what I posted.

I have. The only thing you've really said on the subject is that destroying one geth platform doesn't have the same impact as killing one quarians.

Which, again, is fine. But where do we go from there?

Alright. Sorry, but I didn't actually read what you had posted a couple of minutes ago because I'm tired of repeating myself to the other guy.
Yes, I think it takes a certain number of Geth programs to equal an individual.

So then does it only become wrong to destroy that number of geth runtimes when they're all in one platform, or is it destroying the same number of runtimes spread over several platform just as bad?

The former because they're not all the same programs. Destroying a bunch of the same programs across many platforms would probably require another classification of crime.

[SeptimusMagistos]

D4rkSektor wrote...

The former because they're not all the same programs. Destroying a bunch of the same programs across many platforms would probably require another classification of crime.

I'm concerned that this moral reasoning inherently favors individuals over hive intelligence. Are you really asserting that in order to enjoy a moral high ground the geth should pack a lot of runtimes into every platform, even when it's not efficient?

[D4rkSektor]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

The former because they're not all the same programs. Destroying a bunch of the same programs across many platforms would probably require another classification of crime.

I'm concerned that this moral reasoning inherently favors individuals over hive intelligence. Are you really asserting that in order to enjoy a moral high ground the geth should pack a lot of runtimes into every platform, even when it's not efficient?

Do you have another idea?