1059 réponses à ce sujet

[KingZayd]

D4rkSektor wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

The former because they're not all the same programs. Destroying a bunch of the same programs across many platforms would probably require another classification of crime.

I'm concerned that this moral reasoning inherently favors individuals over hive intelligence. Are you really asserting that in order to enjoy a moral high ground the geth should pack a lot of runtimes into every platform, even when it's not efficient?

Do you have another idea?

favoring hive intelligence over individuals.

Or alternatively not trying to evaluate the worth of a species.

[D4rkSektor]

KingZayd wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

The former because they're not all the same programs. Destroying a bunch of the same programs across many platforms would probably require another classification of crime.

I'm concerned that this moral reasoning inherently favors individuals over hive intelligence. Are you really asserting that in order to enjoy a moral high ground the geth should pack a lot of runtimes into every platform, even when it's not efficient?

Do you have another idea?

favoring hive intelligence over individuals.

Or alternatively not trying to evaluate the worth of a species.

The latter is effectively what I was saying when I said peace is the only option. The whole number of programs equal to an individual intelligence thing was initially to argue Geth killed by Quarians vs Quarians killed by Geth.

[KingZayd]

D4rkSektor wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

The former because they're not all the same programs. Destroying a bunch of the same programs across many platforms would probably require another classification of crime.

I'm concerned that this moral reasoning inherently favors individuals over hive intelligence. Are you really asserting that in order to enjoy a moral high ground the geth should pack a lot of runtimes into every platform, even when it's not efficient?

Do you have another idea?

favoring hive intelligence over individuals.

Or alternatively not trying to evaluate the worth of a species.

The latter is effectively what I was saying when I said peace is the only option. The whole number of programs equal to an individual intelligence thing was initially to argue Geth killed by Quarians vs Quarians killed by Geth.

And I still disagree with that second part.

Either you accept it's just as bad to kill an individual of either species, or the the killing of the species is also unequal.

[justafan]

KingZayd wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

The former because they're not all the same programs. Destroying a bunch of the same programs across many platforms would probably require another classification of crime.

I'm concerned that this moral reasoning inherently favors individuals over hive intelligence. Are you really asserting that in order to enjoy a moral high ground the geth should pack a lot of runtimes into every platform, even when it's not efficient?

Do you have another idea?

favoring hive intelligence over individuals.

Or alternatively not trying to evaluate the worth of a species.

The latter is effectively what I was saying when I said peace is the only option. The whole number of programs equal to an individual intelligence thing was initially to argue Geth killed by Quarians vs Quarians killed by Geth.

And I still disagree with that second part.

Either you accept it's just as bad to kill an individual of either species, or the the killing of the species is also unequal.

I think the point trying to be made is that when you kill a Quarian, that is a irreplaceable individual being erased from the universe.   "individual" Geth programs can be replaced.  The way I see it, there have only been 3 "Geth" in history, the Consensus, the Heretics, and possibly Legion.  Now if you destroy a bunch of Geth servers, you may be committing the equivalent of brain damage to the individual known as the consensus, but until you sever every network, you have not actually killed a sentient entity.  The same is not true with organics, where every one killed is a sentient individual, and irreplaceable.

Modifié par justafan, 07 décembre 2012 - 03:44 .

[D4rkSektor]

KingZayd wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

The former because they're not all the same programs. Destroying a bunch of the same programs across many platforms would probably require another classification of crime.

I'm concerned that this moral reasoning inherently favors individuals over hive intelligence. Are you really asserting that in order to enjoy a moral high ground the geth should pack a lot of runtimes into every platform, even when it's not efficient?

Do you have another idea?

favoring hive intelligence over individuals.

Or alternatively not trying to evaluate the worth of a species.

The latter is effectively what I was saying when I said peace is the only option. The whole number of programs equal to an individual intelligence thing was initially to argue Geth killed by Quarians vs Quarians killed by Geth.

And I still disagree with that second part.

Either you accept it's just as bad to kill an individual of either species, or the the killing of the species is also unequal.

Why don't you accept that a few Geth programs aren't sentient? It would be like considering killing off a bunch of organic cells to be murder. Ludicrous.

[KingZayd]

D4rkSektor wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

The former because they're not all the same programs. Destroying a bunch of the same programs across many platforms would probably require another classification of crime.

I'm concerned that this moral reasoning inherently favors individuals over hive intelligence. Are you really asserting that in order to enjoy a moral high ground the geth should pack a lot of runtimes into every platform, even when it's not efficient?

Do you have another idea?

favoring hive intelligence over individuals.

Or alternatively not trying to evaluate the worth of a species.

The latter is effectively what I was saying when I said peace is the only option. The whole number of programs equal to an individual intelligence thing was initially to argue Geth killed by Quarians vs Quarians killed by Geth.

And I still disagree with that second part.

Either you accept it's just as bad to kill an individual of either species, or the the killing of the species is also unequal.

Why don't you accept that a few Geth programs aren't sentient? It would be like considering killing off a bunch of organic cells to be murder. Ludicrous.

Why don't you accept that the Geth collective is more intelligent than the Quarian collective?

[DeinonSlayer]

What "Quarian collective?" Any attempt to compare the two on such grounds would be arbitrary. That's like asking how many Krogan the Rachni Queen is worth.

[Steelcan]

Deinon, listen to Sherlock

[D4rkSektor]

KingZayd wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

The former because they're not all the same programs. Destroying a bunch of the same programs across many platforms would probably require another classification of crime.

I'm concerned that this moral reasoning inherently favors individuals over hive intelligence. Are you really asserting that in order to enjoy a moral high ground the geth should pack a lot of runtimes into every platform, even when it's not efficient?

Do you have another idea?

favoring hive intelligence over individuals.

Or alternatively not trying to evaluate the worth of a species.

The latter is effectively what I was saying when I said peace is the only option. The whole number of programs equal to an individual intelligence thing was initially to argue Geth killed by Quarians vs Quarians killed by Geth.

And I still disagree with that second part.

Either you accept it's just as bad to kill an individual of either species, or the the killing of the species is also unequal.

Why don't you accept that a few Geth programs aren't sentient? It would be like considering killing off a bunch of organic cells to be murder. Ludicrous.

Why don't you accept that the Geth collective is more intelligent than the Quarian collective?

This. Is. Not. About. The. Collective. We are once again back at individual equivalence.

[KingZayd]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

What "Quarian collective?" Any attempt to compare the two on such grounds would be arbitrary. That's like asking how many Krogan the Rachni Queen is worth.

Which is what the person I was responding to was trying to do. Talking about the relative worth of a Geth program compared to a Quarian was worth.

[DeinonSlayer]

Steelcan wrote...


Deinon, listen to Sherlock

...but he faked his death. :innocent:

Point taken.

v Dusen: Legion tells you on Tuchanka the Quarians didn't use nukes.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 07 décembre 2012 - 04:01 .

[Dusen]

Don't forget that the Quarians also killed their own who harbored fleeing Geth. Also, the Quarians might have resorted to nuclear weapons or other forms of attack that didn't discriminate between Geth and Quarian. In the end, neither side truly deserves to live by the standards you present. The Quarians are just as bad, they were planning to wipe out a race of creatures just for simply thinking.

[KingZayd]

D4rkSektor wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

The former because they're not all the same programs. Destroying a bunch of the same programs across many platforms would probably require another classification of crime.

I'm concerned that this moral reasoning inherently favors individuals over hive intelligence. Are you really asserting that in order to enjoy a moral high ground the geth should pack a lot of runtimes into every platform, even when it's not efficient?

Do you have another idea?

favoring hive intelligence over individuals.

Or alternatively not trying to evaluate the worth of a species.

The latter is effectively what I was saying when I said peace is the only option. The whole number of programs equal to an individual intelligence thing was initially to argue Geth killed by Quarians vs Quarians killed by Geth.

And I still disagree with that second part.

Either you accept it's just as bad to kill an individual of either species, or the the killing of the species is also unequal.

Why don't you accept that a few Geth programs aren't sentient? It would be like considering killing off a bunch of organic cells to be murder. Ludicrous.

Why don't you accept that the Geth collective is more intelligent than the Quarian collective?

This. Is. Not. About. The. Collective. We are once again back at individual equivalence.

Yes it is. You might be back at individual equivalence. I don't see the topics as completely separate.

[TheWerdna]

I hate all the people who try to argue that the "quarians are all evil and the geth are innocent" just as much as I hate the people who say "geth are all evil and the quarians are innocent." They both did terrible things to each other, just have both have reasons to sympathize with them.

Now, I will admit I would side with the quarians if I was forced to, but that is just more of person preference (quarians are my favorite race in the Mass Effect universe, and my canon Shepard's LI is Tali) then thinking they deserve to live over the geth.

[D4rkSektor]

KingZayd wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

The former because they're not all the same programs. Destroying a bunch of the same programs across many platforms would probably require another classification of crime.

I'm concerned that this moral reasoning inherently favors individuals over hive intelligence. Are you really asserting that in order to enjoy a moral high ground the geth should pack a lot of runtimes into every platform, even when it's not efficient?

Do you have another idea?

favoring hive intelligence over individuals.

Or alternatively not trying to evaluate the worth of a species.

The latter is effectively what I was saying when I said peace is the only option. The whole number of programs equal to an individual intelligence thing was initially to argue Geth killed by Quarians vs Quarians killed by Geth.

And I still disagree with that second part.

Either you accept it's just as bad to kill an individual of either species, or the the killing of the species is also unequal.

Why don't you accept that a few Geth programs aren't sentient? It would be like considering killing off a bunch of organic cells to be murder. Ludicrous.

Why don't you accept that the Geth collective is more intelligent than the Quarian collective?

This. Is. Not. About. The. Collective. We are once again back at individual equivalence.

Yes it is. You might be back at individual equivalence. I don't see the topics as completely separate.

They are separate. Killing one Quarian and one Geth is a far cry from killing all of them.

[KingZayd]

[quote]D4rkSektor wrote...

[quote]KingZayd wrote...

[quote]D4rkSektor wrote...

[quote]KingZayd wrote...

[quote]D4rkSektor wrote...

[quote]KingZayd wrote...

[quote]D4rkSektor wrote...

[quote]KingZayd wrote...

[quote]D4rkSektor wrote...

[quote]SeptimusMagistos wrote...

[quote]D4rkSektor wrote...

The former because they're not all the same programs. Destroying a bunch of the same programs across many platforms would probably require another classification of crime.
[/quote]

I'm concerned that this moral reasoning inherently favors individuals over hive intelligence. Are you really asserting that in order to enjoy a moral high ground the geth should pack a lot of runtimes into every platform, even when it's not efficient?

[/quote]
Do you have another idea?

[/quote]

favoring hive intelligence over individuals.

Or alternatively not trying to evaluate the worth of a species.

[/quote]
The latter is effectively what I was saying when I said peace is the only option. The whole number of programs equal to an individual intelligence thing was initially to argue Geth killed by Quarians vs Quarians killed by Geth.

[/quote]

And I still disagree with that second part.

Either you accept it's just as bad to kill an individual of either species, or the the killing of the species is also unequal.

[/quote]
Why don't you accept that a few Geth programs aren't sentient? It would be like considering killing off a bunch of organic cells to be murder. Ludicrous.

[/quote]
Why don't you accept that the Geth collective is more intelligent than the Quarian collective?
[/quote]
This. Is. Not. About. The. Collective. We are once again back at individual equivalence.

[/quote]

Yes it is. You might be back at individual equivalence. I don't see the topics as completely separate.[/quote]
They are separate. Killing one Quarian and one Geth is a far cry from killing all of them.

[/quote]

Only in terms of quantity.

If there was only 1 Quarian and only 1 Geth in existence (and lets say cloning capability, so that the Quarian race isn't already doomed), it'd still be the same.

The two are linked.

Modifié par KingZayd, 07 décembre 2012 - 04:25 .

[D4rkSektor]

KingZayd wrote...

Only in terms of quantity.

If there was only 1 Quarian and only 1 Geth in existence (and lets say cloning capability, so that the Quarian race isn't already doomed), it'd still be the same.

The two are linked.

No. Wiping out an entire race is completely different than killing a member of it. It's not just numbers that separate them. The amount of power required to do it, the atrocity of genocide vs. murder, the state of mind of the person or people doing it, etc.

Why don't you try telling Holocaust survivors that their suffering on that scale is the same as someone shooting a Jew.

[KingZayd]

D4rkSektor wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Only in terms of quantity.

If there was only 1 Quarian and only 1 Geth in existence (and lets say cloning capability, so that the Quarian race isn't already doomed), it'd still be the same.

The two are linked.

No. Wiping out an entire race is completely different than killing a member of it. It's not just numbers that separate them. The amount of power required to do it, the atrocity of genocide vs. murder, the state of mind of the person or people doing it, etc.

Why don't you try telling Holocaust survivors that their suffering on that scale is the same as someone shooting a Jew.

It's not. It's the same as people persecuting, hunting and killing many Jews, (I haven't gone into detail on all the horrible things done to them, but I've already included the parts that make it genocide), because that's what happened.

Modifié par KingZayd, 07 décembre 2012 - 04:41 .

[D4rkSektor]

KingZayd wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Only in terms of quantity.

If there was only 1 Quarian and only 1 Geth in existence (and lets say cloning capability, so that the Quarian race isn't already doomed), it'd still be the same.

The two are linked.

No. Wiping out an entire race is completely different than killing a member of it. It's not just numbers that separate them. The amount of power required to do it, the atrocity of genocide vs. murder, the state of mind of the person or people doing it, etc.

Why don't you try telling Holocaust survivors that their suffering on that scale is the same as someone shooting a Jew.

It's not. It's the same as people persecuting, hunting and killing many Jews, (I haven't gone into detail on all the horrible things done to them, but I've already included the genocide parts, because that's what happened.

Genocide requires collective effort. Murder can be done by one person. More than just numbers.

[KingZayd]

D4rkSektor wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Only in terms of quantity.

If there was only 1 Quarian and only 1 Geth in existence (and lets say cloning capability, so that the Quarian race isn't already doomed), it'd still be the same.

The two are linked.

No. Wiping out an entire race is completely different than killing a member of it. It's not just numbers that separate them. The amount of power required to do it, the atrocity of genocide vs. murder, the state of mind of the person or people doing it, etc.

Why don't you try telling Holocaust survivors that their suffering on that scale is the same as someone shooting a Jew.

It's not. It's the same as people persecuting, hunting and killing many Jews, (I haven't gone into detail on all the horrible things done to them, but I've already included the genocide parts, because that's what happened.

Genocide requires collective effort. Murder can be done by one person. More than just numbers.

Definition of genocide:
The deliberate killing of a large group of people, esp. those of a particular ethnic group or nation.

Only reason it requires collective effort is that it's difficult. Because of the typically huge numbers involved. Theroetically, one person can commit genocide.

Modifié par KingZayd, 07 décembre 2012 - 04:45 .

[nos_astra]

justafan wrote...
I think the point trying to be made is that when you kill a Quarian, that is a irreplaceable individual being erased from the universe.   "individual" Geth programs can be replaced.  The way I see it, there have only been 3 "Geth" in history, the Consensus, the Heretics, and possibly Legion.  Now if you destroy a bunch of Geth servers, you may be committing the equivalent of brain damage to the individual known as the consensus, but until you sever every network, you have not actually killed a sentient entity.  The same is not true with organics, where every one killed is a sentient individual, and irreplaceable.

The funny thing about geth is that we don't even understand them. We seem to constantly confuse the runtimes (aka programs?) and the platforms (who house many runtimes). And what is a server in the Consensus? Can anyone explain?

Geth seem to rely on swarm intelligence.?
Without a Dyson sphere or being linked they are a lot less intelligent. Maybe also not even sentient anymore?

So it seems obvious to me that labels we use like murder or genocide don't easily apply. We don't even know what a geth equivalent to an individual is. All we have is Legion. And he seems to be very unique. He was also created for the sake of organics (so organics may feel more comfortable in Legion's presence) and represents everything the geth didn't want or need. That is, before ME3 gave us the let's-change-the-very-basis-of-our-existence-for-survival asspull and every geth platform was turned into a Legion wannabe.

I think justafan is spot on with his theory that we only know three geth individuals.

Does this mean the geth shouldn't be treated with respect and eventually be granted equal rights? No, they should.

But this discussion proves that they are very different and that our minds struggle to grasp the nature of a collective intelligence, trying and failing to compare and find analogies.

The only thing that matters is the consensus. Single runtimes can be replaced. They could copy themselves to replenish their "numbers" (still unsure if I can even say that). Lore even says a copy would be not an exact copy but something new.

The quarian represantatives who decided to deactivate the geth didn't do so out of malice.
They probably also didn't want to deactivate allgeth at once since ... well, their society depended on them, right?
So what did they want to deactivate? Probably critical programs?

So while I can understand that the geth consensus felt threatened by them because ultimately these representatives wanted to diminish its intelligence and ultimately dissolve it, I fail to see how this is not a completely natural reaction to what was perceived as a dangerous threat to the quarians. 

Modifié par klarabella, 07 décembre 2012 - 07:16 .

[SeptimusMagistos]

klarabella wrote...

The only thing that matters is the consensus. Single runtimes can be relaced.

Objection: single runtimes are unique. While they can certainly copy themselves, if you destroy one of them without a carrier to upload to, you're destroying a unique part of the consensus.

klarabella wrote...

The quarian represantatives who decided to deactivate the geth didn't do so out of malice.
They probably also didn't want to deactivate allgeth at once since ... well, their society depended on them, right?
So what did they want to deactivate? Probably critical programs?

So while I can understand that the geth consensus felt threatened by them because ultimately these representatives wanted to diminish its intelligence and ultimately dissolve it, I fail to see how this is not a completely natural reaction to what was perceived as a dangerous threat to the quarians.

They found something sapient and their first reaction was to try to make it not sapient anymore.

If that's natural to them, I'm glad the quarians involved in making the decision are dead. I feel sorry for the ones who weren't, though.

[nos_astra]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

klarabella wrote...
The only thing that matters is the consensus. Single runtimes can be relaced.

Objection: single runtimes are unique. While they can certainly copy themselves, if you destroy one of them without a carrier to upload to, you're destroying a unique part of the consensus.

Ok. That seems like an important point.
Are we sure that single runtimes are unique? Most seem to agree that a single runtime is not sentient. Or is the brain cell analogy as close enough (if inaccurate)?

SeptimusMagistos wrote...
They found something sapient and their first reaction was to try to make it not sapient anymore.

If that's natural to them, I'm glad the quarians involved in making the decision are dead. I feel sorry for the ones who weren't, though.

I'm not arguing that it wasn't a knee-jerk reaction. However, it was a knee-jerk reaction to what they thought was a very alien, potentially hostile intelligence that had the power to destroy their society from inside out by people who were probably tasked with protecting said society. While ultimately wrong and the cause for an understandable (over-)reaction from that intelligence it became more of a self-fulfilling prophecy. It was also only one of the solutions the quarians (as a society) were pondering, though, I'm not sure what else they could have attempted to protect themselves that wouldn't have caused the Consensus to feel threatened.

Modifié par klarabella, 07 décembre 2012 - 07:31 .

[SeptimusMagistos]

klarabella wrote...

Ok. That seems like an important point.
Are we sure that single runtimes are unique? Most seem to agree that a single runtime is not sentient. Or is the brain cell analogy as close enough (if inaccurate)?

Well, since they can hold different opinions on the same issue it's safe to say they are at the very least different.

Secondly, Legion clarifies the geth don't share the whole of their memories. Thus as time goes on each runtime accumulates more and more experiences that make it unique.

klarabella wrote...
I'm not arguing that it wasn't a knee-jerk reaction. However, it was a knee-jerk reaction to what they thought was a very alien, potentially hostile intelligence that had the power to destroy their society from inside out by people who were probably tasked with protecting said society. While ultimately wrong and the cause for an understandable (over-)reaction from that intelligence it became more of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Again: if your knee-jerk reaction to finding out you've created a new intelligence is to destroy it, my knee-jerk reaction to you is to kill you before you can do anymore damage.

klarabella wrote...
It was also only one of the solutions the quarians (as a society) were pondering, though, I'm not sure what else they could have attempted to protect themselves that wouldn't have caused the Consensus to feel threatened.

"It has come to our attention you are now intelligent. Here is your passport. Will you need weekends off?"

[Giantdeathrobot]

''The quarian represantatives who decided to deactivate the geth didn't do so out of malice.
They probably also didn't want to deactivate allgeth at once since ... well, their society depended on them, right?
So what did they want to deactivate? Probably critical programs?''

Hate to break it to you, but many genocides were not done out of malice, but out of fear or ideology. Many times, it was because the perpetrators thought they were doing a good thinng. In the ****s's case, it was purifying wicked, inferior jew species from the Earth thereby providing a purer, safer, better Germany, not killing them for **** and giggles.

In our situation, the Quarians saw it as solving a future Skynet-like problem. The Geth saw it as a very clear attempt on their newfound sapience, read, their very existence. It's like if somebody decided to brainwash every single human to remove that pesky ''free will' thingie that's making them non obedient appliance. I very much expect humanity would retaliate with overwhelming force. The Geth went too far, but they had good reasons to fight.