1059 réponses à ce sujet

[KingZayd]

Silcron wrote...

to me it just seems the geth are playing wiht both sides of the war (reapers and the rest). We have some geth we call to the public "heretics" to side with the reapers, and then the rest "true geth" will side with the organics, so if any side wins they can be spared as being allies of the winning side. The quarians attacking rannoch made one side hostile to them, so better put all the effort in the side that isn't attacking you (reapers).

The same could be said for humanity, with Cerberus.

Modifié par KingZayd, 04 décembre 2012 - 07:42 .

[emanziboy]

Considering how easily the geth allowed the quarians to retreat from Rannoch, the geth weren't trying to wipe the quarians out and being able to leave and end the conflict was always an option for the quarians. If the quarians didn't stop fighting until 99.83% of them were wiped out, then the fault lies with them for allowing the population for dropping so low before admitting defeat.

Also, this is likely just a writing oversight considering a) how bad writers tend to be at math, and that this statistic was taken data from two different sources.

Modifié par emanziboy, 04 décembre 2012 - 07:43 .

[The Night Mammoth]

Steelcan wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...


I didn't say there weren't, just that the average Quarian wasn't just a happless bystander, but given a gun and forced to fight them. 

Yes, forced. 

No side was right in the Morning War, and to be perfectly honest pretty much every detail is moronic. 

. No where is conscription mentioned, that is pure speculation with no basis in the game.

I think it's pretty safe to assume, all things considered. 

[justafan]

emanziboy wrote...

Considering how easily the geth allowed the quarians to retreat from Rannoch, the geth weren't trying to wipe the quarians out and being able to leave and end the conflict was always an option for the quarians. If the quarians didn't stop fighting until 99.83% of them were wiped out, then the fault lies with them for allowing the population for dropping so low.

Also, this is likely just a writing oversight considering a) how bad writers tend to be at math, and that this statistic was taken data from two different sources.

Quick question.  Do you really think those ships we see leaving Rannoch in the consensus were the first to try to flee?

I believe there is a reason the captains are so shocked the Geth do not pursue.

Modifié par justafan, 04 décembre 2012 - 07:45 .

[Steelcan]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...
I didn't say there weren't, just that the average Quarian wasn't just a happless bystander, but given a gun and forced to fight them. 

Yes, forced. 

No side was right in the Morning War, and to be perfectly honest pretty much every detail is moronic. 

. No where is conscription mentioned, that is pure speculation with no basis in the game.

I think it's pretty safe to assume, all things considered. 

. No it's not, the war lasted one year.  That is not enough time for a conscript army to be formed and trained.  They would have all died by then.

[shodiswe]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

According to Legion in ME2, enough "toxins" were used in the Morning War to necessitate a three-century cleanup effort. The timestamps in the Consensus mission tell us the war lasted a single year.

Make no mistake: this was an extermination. You couldn't achieve that kind of death rate in that timeframe by dropping an asteroid on the planet.

An extermination vs an extermination.
Why do the Quarians get off easily, and the Geth don't?

The Quarians who attempted it in the first place have been dead for generations. The Geth who committed it are still alive. Would we forgive an Asari who murdered a bunch of Salarians, just because she evaded justice and outlived a couple generations of her victims' families?

Some geth are very old, others are "newer" from the post morningwar era...  They didn't stop creating new Geth after the Quarrians were driven off. So they arn't all guilty by that definition.

[Beclab]

KingZayd wrote...

Beclab wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Beclab wrote...

Are you comparing synthetics with organics ?

Organics have feelings,hopes and feeling pain.But synthetics... Thy are just machine.

And carbon-based life forms can have feeling, hope and pain but others can't.. why exactly?

Organics are machines too. Just self (plus mother)-assembling.

Synthetics just have purposes not emotions. Those feeling I talked before comes with the soul, and I dont believe synthetics have souls.

No evidence for souls. Or evidence that Quarians have souls, even if we do.

I don't need evidence for this.You can see that in reactions.

And machines creates for to serve.If creators decided to shut you down, you must shut down cause you created for this.

[Robhuzz]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...


I didn't say there weren't, just that the average Quarian wasn't just a happless bystander, but given a gun and forced to fight them. 

Yes, forced. 

No side was right in the Morning War, and to be perfectly honest pretty much every detail is moronic. 

. No where is conscription mentioned, that is pure speculation with no basis in the game.

I think it's pretty safe to assume, all things considered. 

I think it's more than a safe assumption. During the war, the government declared military law, which it enforces even 300 years later. Now I do not know exactly what military law meant for the Quarians back then but since some Quarians were even killed by other Quarians while all they wanted was to live peacefully among their geth helpers (Que flashback from the concensus) I do not think conscription is a stretch but is in fact VERY likely.

Modifié par Robhuzz, 04 décembre 2012 - 07:47 .

[KingZayd]

Steelcan wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...
I didn't say there weren't, just that the average Quarian wasn't just a happless bystander, but given a gun and forced to fight them. 

Yes, forced. 

No side was right in the Morning War, and to be perfectly honest pretty much every detail is moronic. 

. No where is conscription mentioned, that is pure speculation with no basis in the game.

I think it's pretty safe to assume, all things considered. 

. No it's not, the war lasted one year.  That is not enough time for a conscript army to be formed and trained.  They would have all died by then.

Who said there was extensive training?

They had plenty of time to execute those protecting the Geth. Seems like a state with quite an emphasis on the millitary.

It's no less safe than assuming that 75% of the population were civillians.

[Steelcan]

There wasn't enough time for conscription to take place. Conscripts have to be trained, the war lasted less than a year. There simply wasn't enough time.

[KingZayd]

Robhuzz wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...


I didn't say there weren't, just that the average Quarian wasn't just a happless bystander, but given a gun and forced to fight them. 

Yes, forced. 

No side was right in the Morning War, and to be perfectly honest pretty much every detail is moronic. 

. No where is conscription mentioned, that is pure speculation with no basis in the game.

I think it's pretty safe to assume, all things considered. 

I think it's more than a safe assumption. During the war, the government declared military law, which it enforces even 300 years later. Now I do not know exactly what military law meant for the Quarians back then but since some Quarians were even killed by other Quarians while all they wanted was to live peacefully among their geth helpers (Que flashback from the concensus) I do not think conscription is a stretch but is in fact VERY likely.

agreed.

[Silcron]

KingZayd wrote...

Silcron wrote...

to me it just seems the geth are playing wiht both sides of the war (reapers and the rest). We have some geth we call to the public "heretics" to side with the reapers, and then the rest "true geth" will side with the organics, so if any side wins they can be spared as being allies of the winning side. The quarians attacking rannoch made one side hostile to them, so better put all the effort in the side that isn't attacking you (reapers).

The same could be said for humanity, with Cerberus.

Cerberus never sided wiht the reapers on purpose, they never work with the reapers directly, they may be indoctrinated but that means they work for the reapers. Semantics here are pretty important.

And even if it was true, would that suddenly make the geth good, or humanity equally bad?

[cyrexwingblade]

This is also oversimplifing an already oversimplified point. When given the choice between 'wipe out this race or wipe out this race', neither answer is correct. Making sure the Geth are sympathetic rather than just machines who slaughtered Quarians is important to attempt to incite some concern for them when the choice is demanded.

Neither the Quarians nor the Geth are innocent parties. One tried to keep a race of slaves, and then tried to kill them off when they realized they weren't just obedient (not even waiting for an actual rebellion, just the concept of having a will). The other slaughtered the first until they completely retreated *from the planet*.

These are both horrible responses, and I'd say about equal in evil. They're both planned genocide until forced to stop, either by situation (Quarrian: no where else to go) or psychological quirk (Geth: they left, stop chasing).

The point is that the current races, the ones we're facing right now, have a chance to get away from those awful decisions, and make a real decision. Without wiping each other out, how can we proceed?

That's the point.

[Clayless]

People always shoot me down when I point out the Geth killed tens of millions, heck maybe even 1 or 2 billion, of innocent babies and toddlers.

I love Legion, but I don't let my feelings blind me from cold hard facts: The Geth slaughtered innocents, who were no threat to them, in the name of "self-defense".

Modifié par Our_Last_Scene, 04 décembre 2012 - 07:50 .

[KingZayd]

Beclab wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Beclab wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Beclab wrote...

Are you comparing synthetics with organics ?

Organics have feelings,hopes and feeling pain.But synthetics... Thy are just machine.

And carbon-based life forms can have feeling, hope and pain but others can't.. why exactly?

Organics are machines too. Just self (plus mother)-assembling.

Synthetics just have purposes not emotions. Those feeling I talked before comes with the soul, and I dont believe synthetics have souls.

No evidence for souls. Or evidence that Quarians have souls, even if we do.

I don't need evidence for this.You can see that in reactions.

And machines creates for to serve.If creators decided to shut you down, you must shut down cause you created for this.

I can't see souls in people's faces. Can you? Have you been to a doctor?

If you've been bred to serve as a slave, and your creators decide for whatever reason (poor serving-food efficiency) that you must die, you should comply? Interesting.

What if my mother created me only so that I could serve her. Should I comply if she decides to "shut me down"?

[Steelcan]

KingZayd wrote...

Who said there was extensive training?

They had plenty of time to execute those protecting the Geth. Seems like a state with quite an emphasis on the millitary.

It's no less safe than assuming that 75% of the population were civillians.

. They had a single year to do anything.  Without training the soldiers would just be cannon fodder.  That doesn't work against the geth.  

[justafan]

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...
I didn't say there weren't, just that the average Quarian wasn't just a happless bystander, but given a gun and forced to fight them. 

Yes, forced. 

No side was right in the Morning War, and to be perfectly honest pretty much every detail is moronic. 

. No where is conscription mentioned, that is pure speculation with no basis in the game.

I think it's pretty safe to assume, all things considered. 

. No it's not, the war lasted one year.  That is not enough time for a conscript army to be formed and trained.  They would have all died by then.

Who said there was extensive training?

They had plenty of time to execute those protecting the Geth. Seems like a state with quite an emphasis on the millitary.

It's no less safe than assuming that 75% of the population were civillians.

Judging by the way EDI describes Geth thought process.  It is probably likely that as soon as a Quarian adult got that conscription notice, they were labeled "hostile".  If mass conscription was enacted, you could easily see the pro Geth side being "eventually outnumbered" from the early Geth point of view, even if the individuals were sympathetic to them.

Modifié par justafan, 04 décembre 2012 - 07:51 .

[KingZayd]

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Who said there was extensive training?

They had plenty of time to execute those protecting the Geth. Seems like a state with quite an emphasis on the millitary.

It's no less safe than assuming that 75% of the population were civillians.

. They had a single year to do anything.  Without training the soldiers would just be cannon fodder.  That doesn't work against the geth.  

Better than nothing, right?

Also it's not as if the Geth had a headstart or anything. And apparently, they were stupid too!

Modifié par KingZayd, 04 décembre 2012 - 07:50 .

[Capeo]

I always kill the Quarians. Mainly for being so boneheaded as to start a war during an ongoing Reaper invasion.

As far as the Morning War, the Quarians started it. They would have wiped the Geth out entirely. The Geth at least stopped when they felt the threat was over. They could have done to the Quarians what they planned to do to the Geth.

As far as the argument that the Geth were just synthetics? The overarching theme of ME is that sufficient advanced synthetics are alive.

[Steelcan]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

People always shoot me down when I point out the Geth killed tens of millions, heck maybe even 1 or 2 billion, of innocent babies and toddlers.

I love Legion, but I don't let my feelings blind me from cold hard facts: The Geth slaughtered innocents, who were no threat to them, in the name of "self-defense".

. Apparantly the geth were innocent to<_<

[Steelcan]

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
Who said there was extensive training?

They had plenty of time to execute those protecting the Geth. Seems like a state with quite an emphasis on the millitary.

It's no less safe than assuming that 75% of the population were civillians.

. They had a single year to do anything.  Without training the soldiers would just be cannon fodder.  That doesn't work against the geth.  

Better than nothing, right?

Also it's not as if the Geth had a headstart or anything. And apparently, they were stupid too!

. But the geth are built for durability.  And they are a networked epintelligence, they become intelligent as a whole, and that whole is responsible for war crimes.

[Steelcan]

Capeo wrote...

I always kill the Quarians. Mainly for being so boneheaded as to start a war during an ongoing Reaper invasion.

As far as the Morning War, the Quarians started it. They would have wiped the Geth out entirely. The Geth at least stopped when they felt the threat was over. They could have done to the Quarians what they planned to do to the Geth.

As far as the argument that the Geth were just synthetics? The overarching theme of ME is that sufficient advanced synthetics are alive.

. I'm sure that's a comfort to the innocents you are butchering.

[KingZayd]

Steelcan wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

People always shoot me down when I point out the Geth killed tens of millions, heck maybe even 1 or 2 billion, of innocent babies and toddlers.

I love Legion, but I don't let my feelings blind me from cold hard facts: The Geth slaughtered innocents, who were no threat to them, in the name of "self-defense".

. Apparantly the geth were innocent to<_<

Who did all those Geth platforms kill before the Quarians tried to exterminate them? Sounds innocent to me. Who were the Geth platforms threatening before the Quarians tried to exterminate them?

Yes the Geth fought ruthlessly, but so did the Quarians.

[Giantdeathrobot]

I don't see any side as being particularily above, morally. Both wanted to exterminate the other, that much is crystal clear. And the Quarians also clearly started the war. The Geth just ended it. In fact, I have no doubt that if they had the upper hand, the Quarians would not have let a single Geth escape. In the Geth's collective, letting the Quarians go was probably some kind of mercy, not utterly destroying the collective that wanted to destroy theirs.

I wonder what the reactions in this thread and in-universe (barring the just-a-machine sillyness) would be if the situation were reversed. Geth start the war, then get soundly trashed and exiled. Would people also accuse the Quariansof mindless genocide? Have them become pariahs (even more than now). Or do we apply ye olde double standard and say that it doesn't count because they're not fleshy?

Talk of ''souls'' is also nonsense. We have no idea if such a thing even exists, it's merely a belief. You can't possibly fault the Geth for not having something whose existence you cannot prove.

[Steelcan]

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

People always shoot me down when I point out the Geth killed tens of millions, heck maybe even 1 or 2 billion, of innocent babies and toddlers.

I love Legion, but I don't let my feelings blind me from cold hard facts: The Geth slaughtered innocents, who were no threat to them, in the name of "self-defense".

. Apparantly the geth were innocent to<_<

Who did all those Geth platforms kill before the Quarians tried to exterminate them? Sounds innocent to me. Who were the Geth platforms threatening before the Quarians tried to exterminate them?

Yes the Geth fought ruthlessly, but so did the Quarians.

. the geth are machines that aren't even fully sapient.  Each Quarian is a fully sapient being.