1059 réponses à ce sujet

[InvincibleHero]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

klarabella wrote...

Ok. That seems like an important point.
Are we sure that single runtimes are unique? Most seem to agree that a single runtime is not sentient. Or is the brain cell analogy as close enough (if inaccurate)?

Well, since they can hold different opinions on the same issue it's safe to say they are at the very least different.

Secondly, Legion clarifies the geth don't share the whole of their memories. Thus as time goes on each runtime accumulates more and more experiences that make it unique.

klarabella wrote...
I'm not arguing that it wasn't a knee-jerk reaction. However, it was a knee-jerk reaction to what they thought was a very alien, potentially hostile intelligence that had the power to destroy their society from inside out by people who were probably tasked with protecting said society. While ultimately wrong and the cause for an understandable (over-)reaction from that intelligence it became more of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Again: if your knee-jerk reaction to finding out you've created a new intelligence is to destroy it, my knee-jerk reaction to you is to kill you before you can do anymore damage.

klarabella wrote...
It was also only one of the solutions the quarians (as a society) were pondering, though, I'm not sure what else they could have attempted to protect themselves that wouldn't have caused the Consensus to feel threatened.

"It has come to our attention you are now intelligent. Here is your passport. Will you need weekends off?"

Legion states all geth are the same. Also once they connect to the collective all their info is disseminated to all making them the same once again. You are confusing Legion composed of individual programs and is unique to the geth. The rest are like a unicode that can do all discovered functions of the geth and work equally and for all intents and purposes are identical to the 1s and 0s.

[KingZayd]

InvincibleHero wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

klarabella wrote...

Ok. That seems like an important point.
Are we sure that single runtimes are unique? Most seem to agree that a single runtime is not sentient. Or is the brain cell analogy as close enough (if inaccurate)?

Well, since they can hold different opinions on the same issue it's safe to say they are at the very least different.

Secondly, Legion clarifies the geth don't share the whole of their memories. Thus as time goes on each runtime accumulates more and more experiences that make it unique.

klarabella wrote...
I'm not arguing that it wasn't a knee-jerk reaction. However, it was a knee-jerk reaction to what they thought was a very alien, potentially hostile intelligence that had the power to destroy their society from inside out by people who were probably tasked with protecting said society. While ultimately wrong and the cause for an understandable (over-)reaction from that intelligence it became more of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Again: if your knee-jerk reaction to finding out you've created a new intelligence is to destroy it, my knee-jerk reaction to you is to kill you before you can do anymore damage.

klarabella wrote...
It was also only one of the solutions the quarians (as a society) were pondering, though, I'm not sure what else they could have attempted to protect themselves that wouldn't have caused the Consensus to feel threatened.

"It has come to our attention you are now intelligent. Here is your passport. Will you need weekends off?"

Legion states all geth are the same. Also once they connect to the collective all their info is disseminated to all making them the same once again. You are confusing Legion composed of individual programs and is unique to the geth. The rest are like a unicode that can do all discovered functions of the geth and work equally and for all intents and purposes are identical to the 1s and 0s.

When does he say that?
What would be the point of the consensus then?
If all Geth were the same, how did the Great schism come about?

[InvincibleHero]

KingZayd wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

klarabella wrote...

Ok. That seems like an important point.
Are we sure that single runtimes are unique? Most seem to agree that a single runtime is not sentient. Or is the brain cell analogy as close enough (if inaccurate)?

Well, since they can hold different opinions on the same issue it's safe to say they are at the very least different.

Secondly, Legion clarifies the geth don't share the whole of their memories. Thus as time goes on each runtime accumulates more and more experiences that make it unique.

klarabella wrote...
I'm not arguing that it wasn't a knee-jerk reaction. However, it was a knee-jerk reaction to what they thought was a very alien, potentially hostile intelligence that had the power to destroy their society from inside out by people who were probably tasked with protecting said society. While ultimately wrong and the cause for an understandable (over-)reaction from that intelligence it became more of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Again: if your knee-jerk reaction to finding out you've created a new intelligence is to destroy it, my knee-jerk reaction to you is to kill you before you can do anymore damage.

klarabella wrote...
It was also only one of the solutions the quarians (as a society) were pondering, though, I'm not sure what else they could have attempted to protect themselves that wouldn't have caused the Consensus to feel threatened.

"It has come to our attention you are now intelligent. Here is your passport. Will you need weekends off?"

Legion states all geth are the same. Also once they connect to the collective all their info is disseminated to all making them the same once again. You are confusing Legion composed of individual programs and is unique to the geth. The rest are like a unicode that can do all discovered functions of the geth and work equally and for all intents and purposes are identical to the 1s and 0s.

When does he say that?
What would be the point of the consensus then?
If all Geth were the same, how did the Great schism come about?

Legion stated it in ME2 when saying geth are not the the same as organics.

The consensus is all merged together which gives them more computing power. It is like adding hard drives and memory to computers. The consensus still has a solitary view. It isn't like Legion where his programs logged votes think like the kree super intelligence in Marvel comics as a gestalt with a singular focus but made of many individual parts as the geth lines of code are. Each geth has multiple functions and can be tasked with what is needed instantly.

Modifié par InvincibleHero, 07 décembre 2012 - 10:24 .

[KingZayd]

InvincibleHero wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

klarabella wrote...

Ok. That seems like an important point.
Are we sure that single runtimes are unique? Most seem to agree that a single runtime is not sentient. Or is the brain cell analogy as close enough (if inaccurate)?

Well, since they can hold different opinions on the same issue it's safe to say they are at the very least different.

Secondly, Legion clarifies the geth don't share the whole of their memories. Thus as time goes on each runtime accumulates more and more experiences that make it unique.

klarabella wrote...
I'm not arguing that it wasn't a knee-jerk reaction. However, it was a knee-jerk reaction to what they thought was a very alien, potentially hostile intelligence that had the power to destroy their society from inside out by people who were probably tasked with protecting said society. While ultimately wrong and the cause for an understandable (over-)reaction from that intelligence it became more of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Again: if your knee-jerk reaction to finding out you've created a new intelligence is to destroy it, my knee-jerk reaction to you is to kill you before you can do anymore damage.

klarabella wrote...
It was also only one of the solutions the quarians (as a society) were pondering, though, I'm not sure what else they could have attempted to protect themselves that wouldn't have caused the Consensus to feel threatened.

"It has come to our attention you are now intelligent. Here is your passport. Will you need weekends off?"

Legion states all geth are the same. Also once they connect to the collective all their info is disseminated to all making them the same once again. You are confusing Legion composed of individual programs and is unique to the geth. The rest are like a unicode that can do all discovered functions of the geth and work equally and for all intents and purposes are identical to the 1s and 0s.

When does he say that?
What would be the point of the consensus then?
If all Geth were the same, how did the Great schism come about?

Legion stated it in ME2 when saying geth are not the the same as organics.

The consensus is all merged together which gives them more computing power. It is like adding hard drives and memory to computers. The consensus still has a solitary view. It isn't like Legion where his programs logged votes think like the kree super intelligence in Marvel comics as a gestalt with a singular focus but made of many individual parts as the geth lines of code are. Each geth has multiple functions and can be tasked with what is needed instantly.

I'm pretty sure I don't remember Legion saying the Geth are all the same. Please can you provide a link and/or an exact quote?

Modifié par KingZayd, 07 décembre 2012 - 11:13 .

[Jadebaby]

Did EDI not kill a bunch of alliance marines when she "awoke" to sentience on Luna in ME1?

That was a 100% fatality rate. I've been watching this thread a bit. But I don't like it.

[KiwiQuiche]

GET.RID.OF.THE.QUOTE.PYRAMIDS.

[nos_astra]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...
Well, since they can hold different opinions on the same issue it's safe to say they are at the very least different.

Secondly, Legion clarifies the geth don't share the whole of their memories. Thus as time goes on each runtime accumulates more and more experiences that make it unique.

Isn't that completely contradictory to what they are supposed to be, a collective intelligence? How do they get smarter without sharing something like this? How can they not have access to memories considering they don't have individuals and don't value individuality. 

Legion for example consists of ore than 1000 runtimes. And these runtimes don't share knwoledge and memories? 

SeptimusMagistos wrote...
Again: if your knee-jerk reaction to finding out you've created a new intelligence is to destroy it, my knee-jerk reaction to you is to kill you before you can do anymore damage.

Are we sure there was a feasible alternative? How do we know?

SeptimusMagistos wrote...
"It has come to our attention you are now intelligent. Here is your passport. Will you need weekends off?"

"We trust you will not abuse your unrivaled power to destroy us completely, even though you are very alien and we have no idea if you even understand us enough not to accidentally kill us all. Have a nice day."

A few weeks/months later cue the Morning War when the geth wipe out the quarians because they can't tell right from wrong and misunderstand the quarian's society completely. 

Modifié par klarabella, 07 décembre 2012 - 04:40 .

[xtorma]

D4rkSektor wrote...

xtorma wrote...

I look at it this way.

when the quarians were in control, thier solution to the geth was to destroy them all. Even if that included killing thier own people who were opposed.

when the geth were in control, they allowed the quarians to escape so they could continue living, even though they probably knew the decision would come back to bite them in the ass.

Quarians chose genocide because of something that they believed might happen in the future. They condemned an entire race based on an analysis of what might happen, even though thier analysis had been wrong in the past.

Geth fought to survive, and stopped fighting when the threat was eliminated.

The Quarians were acting based on the widely accepted fact that AIs are dangerous in the ME universe. It's illegal in Council space. Any other race would have done the same thing.
Slaughtering billions, most of whom were civilians is just barely letting them escape. The only reason why the Geth didn't just go ahead and wipe out the Quarians is because they could not achieve consensus on the effects of wiping out a species.
The second time around, the Quarians attacked because they believed peace with the Geth to be out of the question.

The geth learned everything they knew at that point from the quarians. Legion didn't pick up the weapon until he saw quarians killing both geth and each other.

Sorry man The quarians are scum. They tried to create slaves, and when the slaves started to show that they were becoming more,  the quarians became murderers, even of thier own people. The geth learned genocide from the best.

No sympathy for quarians.

[sw04ca]

Tried to create slaves? Like how my car is my slave?

The quarians tried to create appliances and tools.

[D4rkSektor]

KingZayd wrote...
Definition of genocide:
The deliberate killing of a large group of people, esp. those of a particular ethnic group or nation.

Only reason it requires collective effort is that it's difficult. Because of the typically huge numbers involved. Theroetically, one person can commit genocide.

I know what the definition of genocide is. My point before was that genocide differs from murder not only from the victims' points of view, but also on the attackers'.
It is theoretically possible for one person by himself to commit genocide,but highly unlikely.
EDIT: And speaking of definitions, how do we even know that the Geth have a definition for murder in the first place? Murder is an individual organic concept. I believe someone else said this before, but the Geth are collective intelligence, so perhaps destroying however many pograms equals an individual would amount to brain damage. On the other hand, while the Geth may not have an explicit equivalent of a word for genocide, I'm pretty sure that the concept carries over.

Modifié par D4rkSektor, 07 décembre 2012 - 02:28 .

[D4rkSektor]

xtorma wrote...

The geth learned everything they knew at that point from the quarians. Legion didn't pick up the weapon until he saw quarians killing both geth and each other.

Sorry man The quarians are scum. They tried to create slaves, and when the slaves started to show that they were becoming more,  the quarians became murderers, even of thier own people. The geth learned genocide from the best.

No sympathy for quarians.

Legion the independent paltform wasn't even around during the Morning War.
And like I said, any other race would have tried to do the exact same thing. Quarian, Turian, Salarian, it doesn't matter. They would have attempted to stop what they believed to be the start of an AI uprising. It seems you completely ignored my point about AI being considered dangerous in the ME universe. Was it the right action? Most certainly not, but don't say that Quarians are "the best at genocide" when any other species would have done the same damn thing. I'm pretty ****ing sure that the Reapers are "the best at genocide."
Although the Geth are pretty good at it too. Killing billions of Qurians before showing "mercy?" Yeah, they're sooo innocent.
Plus, the Quarians didn't try to create slaves. They tried to create a cheap labor force. That was their intention. Prior to gaining sentience, it was no more enslaving a Geth than it is enslaving your toaster. If they had attempted to create true AIs for labor, then it would be considered slavery. That would not only lead to a faster uprising, but also make them look bad, and be a waste of intelligence to boot.

And you make it sound like you didn't choose peace on Rannoch, to which I have to say, WTF is wrong with you?

Modifié par D4rkSektor, 07 décembre 2012 - 02:32 .

[xtorma]

sw04ca wrote...

Tried to create slaves? Like how my car is my slave?

The quarians tried to create appliances and tools.

Once they knew that the geth were sapient, they still wanted them to come back and be slaves. (xen me2)  If they wouldn't be slaves, they had to be destroyed.

Up until the morning war, everything the geth were, was taught to them by the quarians.
During the moring war, everything that the geth did, was in answer to what the quarians were doing to them.

I  just look at when the geth decided to arm themselves, and what caused it.

[TheWerdna]

xtorma wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

xtorma wrote...

I look at it this way.

when the quarians were in control, thier solution to the geth was to destroy them all. Even if that included killing thier own people who were opposed.

when the geth were in control, they allowed the quarians to escape so they could continue living, even though they probably knew the decision would come back to bite them in the ass.

Quarians chose genocide because of something that they believed might happen in the future. They condemned an entire race based on an analysis of what might happen, even though thier analysis had been wrong in the past.

Geth fought to survive, and stopped fighting when the threat was eliminated.

The Quarians were acting based on the widely accepted fact that AIs are dangerous in the ME universe. It's illegal in Council space. Any other race would have done the same thing.
Slaughtering billions, most of whom were civilians is just barely letting them escape. The only reason why the Geth didn't just go ahead and wipe out the Quarians is because they could not achieve consensus on the effects of wiping out a species.
The second time around, the Quarians attacked because they believed peace with the Geth to be out of the question.

The geth learned everything they knew at that point from the quarians. Legion didn't pick up the weapon until he saw quarians killing both geth and each other.

Sorry man The quarians are scum. They tried to create slaves, and when the slaves started to show that they were becoming more,  the quarians became murderers, even of thier own people. The geth learned genocide from the best.

No sympathy for quarians.

They didn't try to create slaves, as making the geth sentiant was completely an accident.

Also, do you honestly think humanity would have reacrted any differently?

Modifié par TheWerdna, 07 décembre 2012 - 02:40 .

[D4rkSektor]

xtorma wrote...

sw04ca wrote...

Tried to create slaves? Like how my car is my slave?

The quarians tried to create appliances and tools.

Once they knew that the geth were sapient, they still wanted them to come back and be slaves. (xen me2)  If they wouldn't be slaves, they had to be destroyed.

Up until the morning war, everything the geth were, was taught to them by the quarians.
During the moring war, everything that the geth did, was in answer to what the quarians were doing to them.

I  just look at when the geth decided to arm themselves, and what caused it.

Get your facts straight. Once the Geth became sentient, the Quarians panicked as their VIs had turned into AI.
Your entire argument seems to be, "THEY STARTED IT," which is what seven year-olds use when they get in trouble. I don't think you are qualified to make a decision about the potential genocide of a species.

Modifié par D4rkSektor, 07 décembre 2012 - 02:42 .

[xtorma]

D4rkSektor wrote...

xtorma wrote...

The geth learned everything they knew at that point from the quarians. Legion didn't pick up the weapon until he saw quarians killing both geth and each other.

Sorry man The quarians are scum. They tried to create slaves, and when the slaves started to show that they were becoming more,  the quarians became murderers, even of thier own people. The geth learned genocide from the best.

No sympathy for quarians.

Legion the independent paltform wasn't even around during the Morning War.
And like I said, any other race would have tried to do the exact same thing. Quarian, Turian, Salarian, it doesn't matter. They would have attempted to stop what they believed to be the start of an AI uprising. It seems you completely ignored my point about AI being considered dangerous in the ME universe. Was it the right action? Most certainly not, but don't say that Quarians are "the best at genocide" when any other species would have done the same damn thing. I'm pretty ****ing sure that the Reapers are "the best at genocide."
Although the Geth are pretty good at it too. Killing billions of Qurians before showing "mercy?" Yeah, they're sooo innocent.
Plus, the Quarians didn't try to create slaves. They tried to create a cheap labor force. That was their intention. Prior to gaining sentience, it was no more enslaving a Geth than it is enslaving your toaster. If they had attempted to create true AIs for labor, then it would be considered slavery. That would not only lead to a faster uprising, but also make them look bad, and be a waste of intelligence to boot.

And you make it sound like you didn't choose peace on Rannoch, to which I have to say, WTF is wrong with you?

It wasn't for me to choose, it was for the quarians to choose. I advised them to stand down, they refused. So I would say WTF was wrong with the quarians.

And at least the geth showed a tiny bit of mercy, something the quarians were not inclined to do.

[xtorma]

D4rkSektor wrote...

xtorma wrote...

sw04ca wrote...

Tried to create slaves? Like how my car is my slave?

The quarians tried to create appliances and tools.

Once they knew that the geth were sapient, they still wanted them to come back and be slaves. (xen me2)  If they wouldn't be slaves, they had to be destroyed.

Up until the morning war, everything the geth were, was taught to them by the quarians.
During the moring war, everything that the geth did, was in answer to what the quarians were doing to them.

I  just look at when the geth decided to arm themselves, and what caused it.

Get your facts straight. Once the Geth became sentient, the Quarians panicked as their VIs had turned into AI.
Your entire argument seems to be, "THEY STARTED IT," which is what seven year-olds use when they get in trouble. I don't think you are qualified to make a decision about the potential genocide of a species.

Replay tali's loyalty mission and talk to xen. She most definaltly wants her slave force back.

Why insult me, I have not insulted you. I am a child because I see things differently than you? In a story that is mine, and has multiple ways it can play out? I am not qualified to make a decision about genocide, but neither were the quarians, or the geth.

so who made the decision to commit genocide in the game?

It certianly wasn't me.

[3DandBeyond]

The geth had not fought before-had not used weapons. It is quite possible they didn't know their own strength or up until the point where they retreated they had no context as to what they were doing. It's like a child throwing a temper tantrum. They don't understand until they learn what is wrong with what they are doing, and what is destructive.

The geth were AIs that became self-aware and through the hive mind were able to realize they could become something more. The reaction of the Quarians was also out of balance-that they had to destroy the geth when they did the unexpected, out of fear. So, the geth like children who were still learning also reacted out of fear and out of a lack of knowledge, nuance. Just like EDI had to learn to really care and protect her crew, and find a way to overcome her limitations, the geth lacked true understanding of what they were doing. But, they learned and they stopped before it was way too late and they had remorse. That one statement indicates they'd achieved a level of learning very quickly.

People overreact all the time, but we have the context to understand right and wrong. We have no idea that the geth had that same context when the fight began. We do know they learned that ultimately after a heck of a lot of people died. We also have no idea how many quarians died because of their own actions-some were imprisoned and/or killed because they helped the geth. Some geth died to save quarians. There were then some geth that wanted to protect quarians, so it may well be it took time for that idea to pass to all geth.

It's also quite likely that the problem is the geth were far more accurate and far more accomplished at hitting targets and killing en masse than the quarians. So, part of the fault is they were programmed too well.

[TheWerdna]

xtorma wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

xtorma wrote...

sw04ca wrote...

Tried to create slaves? Like how my car is my slave?

The quarians tried to create appliances and tools.

Once they knew that the geth were sapient, they still wanted them to come back and be slaves. (xen me2)  If they wouldn't be slaves, they had to be destroyed.

Up until the morning war, everything the geth were, was taught to them by the quarians.
During the moring war, everything that the geth did, was in answer to what the quarians were doing to them.

I  just look at when the geth decided to arm themselves, and what caused it.

Get your facts straight. Once the Geth became sentient, the Quarians panicked as their VIs had turned into AI.
Your entire argument seems to be, "THEY STARTED IT," which is what seven year-olds use when they get in trouble. I don't think you are qualified to make a decision about the potential genocide of a species.

Replay tali's loyalty mission and talk to xen. She most definaltly wants her slave force back.

Why insult me, I have not insulted you. I am a child because I see things differently than you? In a story that is mine, and has multiple ways it can play out? I am not qualified to make a decision about genocide, but neither were the quarians, or the geth.

so who made the decision to commit genocide in the game?

It certianly wasn't me.

Well Xen is crazy, with the vast majority of quarians disagreeing with her.

If you had no choice but to pick a side, then it is fine...but if you have a choice to get peace and you decide to kill one side anyways (which doesn't mater), you are a monster.

Modifié par TheWerdna, 07 décembre 2012 - 03:48 .

[SeptimusMagistos]

klarabella wrote...

Isn't that completely contradictory to what they are supposed to be, a collective intelligence? How do they get smarter without sharing something like this? How can they not have acces to memories considering they don't have individuals and don't value individuality. 

Legion for example consists of ore than 1000 runtimes. And these runtimes don't share knwoledge and memories?

They share some of the data and they certainly share processing power. But each geth program isn't exactly the same as every other geth program. For instance, one only has to look at the fact that the heretic geth remain a voting block within the consensus even after their math error gets corrected.

The programs within Legion share the memories they acquired together, and possibly some others, but if they weren't unique there would never be split decisions, only unanimity.

klarabella wrote...
Are we sure there was a feasible alternative? How do we know?

Because even the quarians admit that the geth had done absolutely nothing to them when the quarians decided to start being jerks.

klarabella wrote...
"We trust you will not abuse your unrivaled power to destroy us completely, even though you are very alien and we have no idea if you even understand us enough not to accidentally kill us all. Have a nice day."

A few weeks/months later cue the Morning War when the geth wipe out the quarians because they can't tell right from wrong and misunderstand the qurians society completely.

The quarians don't have the right to wipe out another species because of their paranoia. The geth were doing no harm and showed no indication of wanting to. The quarans' best bet was to make friends with the emerging robotic intelligence.

[3DandBeyond]

xtorma wrote...



Replay tali's loyalty mission and talk to xen. She most definaltly wants her slave force back.

Why insult me, I have not insulted you. I am a child because I see things differently than you? In a story that is mine, and has multiple ways it can play out? I am not qualified to make a decision about genocide, but neither were the quarians, or the geth.

so who made the decision to commit genocide in the game?

It certianly wasn't me.

Yes, that's exactly it.  The geth were being used as slaves (this would apply if they were people, which they didn't start off as).  When they learned to use the total power of the hive mind, they became aware and did not even pursue full autonomy and say they no longer wanted to be drones.  The quarians became afraid they would no longer like to be "slaves" and feared the morality of such a thing-that sentient, sapient beings would be used this way.  They also feared the galaxy's response to the situation.

In Tali's loyalty mission, Xen not only wants her slaves back, she wants to experiment on them.  She sees them still as just talking toasters.  This was the sentiment of many quarians, and others considered the geth to be people.

The whole conflict does come down to a child-like discussion of who did what first.  And no that isn't mature, but then most wars are not.  It's what the whole real-life debate about pre-emptive strikes is about.  Does anyone have the right to attack someone who might attack them?  The operative word is "might".  This is something my Shepard said "no" to.  You don't condemn a race to extinction based upon what might happen.  She said that.  The quarians decided to destroy the geth based on what might happen.  The geth reacted and over-reacted to the fear of extermination and extinction.  It's kind of like in the Untouchables movie.  I think it was Sean Connery that said the famous quote about if your opponent brings a knife to a fight, you bring a gun. 

In any fight and especially if it's a fight for existence, you don't stop until you've clearly won and you do try to overwhelm your opponent to get it over quickly and to make sure you win.  This is a real truth.  If you do not overwhelm your enemy, you allow for a protracted conflict and a potential loss to you.  It's overkill, but that is a real technique.  If a police officer is being shot at and shoots back, s/he's trained to empty their gun into the shooter.  The reason is because it's impossible until the fighting is over, to know if you've stopped the threat.  And there's no such thing as a surgical strike.  In war, it's not possible to only kill certain people and stop the war immediately.


Still and all, that doesn't mean any side is without sin here.  And it's a POV thing in any conflict.  It's hard enough on these forums for people to accept someone else's opinion without attacking them for having one, so when guns and missiles are involved the morality of the issue becomes fuzzy.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 07 décembre 2012 - 03:29 .

[DeinonSlayer]

xtorma wrote...

It wasn't for me to choose, it was for the quarians to choose. I advised them to stand down, they refused. So I would say WTF was wrong with the quarians.

And at least the geth showed a tiny bit of mercy, something the quarians were not inclined to do.

No one beyond the Admiralty Board knows that Legion even exists. The rest of the fleet, millions upon millions of civilians, have no way of knowing the Geth are anything but hostile. After they kill a reaper for you, you neglect to inform them about the upload ("break off the attack" is not an adequate explanation of the situation). You neglect to inform them that they'll only react defensively. You're told exactly what will happen if the upload is completed, and you let it happen anyway when you have the power to prevent a genocide.

Don't you dare pretend otherwise. You have no grounds to duck responsibility for it.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 07 décembre 2012 - 03:41 .

[TheWerdna]

Honestly, I don't think either side is blameless, nor do I think either
deserves death. Both have reseasons for acting how they did and have
reasons to sypathize with them, while also having done some terrible
terrible things.

Morning War

Quarians

What they did wrong: They tried to destroy an race of synthetics upon gaining sentience, killing and immprisoning their own people who were against this.

Reasons for this action: The council had scrict anti-synthetic laws, and every single race had it hammered in that synthetics were incredibly dangerious and needed to be destroyed. Any other race would have probably done the same thing (this doesn't make it right of course); and it is likely that if the quarians didn't try to deactivate the geth, the council would have taken action (possibly war) against them for breaking the anti-AI laws.

Geth

What they did wrong: They killed billions of quarians in response, nearly exterminating their race, all in the course of a year, most of whom would have been civilians who had no say in the decision to deactivate the geth. They
also not only drove the survivors off Rannoch, but all of their colonies.

Reasons for this action: Self defense, can't say much more the that. Also, they hadn;t developed far enough to realise their actions were wrong.

Post-Morning War

Quarians

As a result of their actions, the quarians have suffered enough for their actions. Every race hates them and looks down on them, forcing them to be outsiders for the actions their ancestors made. They have to wear suits or die due to being exiled from their homeworld and live on ships without any real hope of finding a new planet unless they retake their own (any attempt to settle a new world is denied by the council)

Geth

Despite their justifiable reasonings, the Geth were isolationist, killing anyone who went into their space. They reacted violently to everyone, not just quarians.

ME3 Events

Quarians

What they did wrong: They went to war with the geth again, with the intention of wiping them out.

Reasons for this action: The hatrid the current quarians have towards the geth is completely
understandable. As far as they and the rest of the galaxy are aware (besides Shepard and his crew), the geth are monsters who need to be destroyrf. Yes, they aren't correct in this beleif, just delusioned in their actions not being wrong. They had no way of knowing that peace was an option (well, Tali probably tried to tell them, but even after becoming admiral, it seems like few of the other leaders takes her seruously)

Also, as reviled in the books, the migrant fleet is not sustainable and is going to collapse within the next few decades (can't keep maintaining ships), their only hope for survival is to find a world to settle, which due to the council's actions in the past, retaking Rannoch is their only real option. Lastly, they are simply desperate, as they have been suffering for generations for what their ancestors did.

Geth

What they did wrong: Allied with the freaken Reapers.

Why did they do it: Survival and having no other choise reallty, nuff said

Modifié par TheWerdna, 07 décembre 2012 - 03:51 .

[xtorma]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

xtorma wrote...

It wasn't for me to choose, it was for the quarians to choose. I advised them to stand down, they refused. So I would say WTF was wrong with the quarians.

And at least the geth showed a tiny bit of mercy, something the quarians were not inclined to do.

No one beyond the Admiralty Board knows that Legion even exists. The rest of the fleet, millions upon millions of civilians, have no way of knowing the Geth are anything but hostile. After they kill a reaper for you, you neglect to inform them about the upload ("break off the attack" is not an adequate explanation of the situation). You neglect to inform them that they'll only react defensively. You're told exactly what will happen if the upload is completed, and you let it happen anyway when you have the power to prevent a genocide.

Don't you dare pretend otherwise.

Wrong. I brought legion onto the fleet in me2. The whole liveship knew about him, and that kind of information does not stay mum.

They didn't kill a reaper for "me" they killed a reaper because it was on their homeworld. They also had no qualms about blowing up a ship with shepard still on it. The quarians don't give a flock about shepard, or anyone other than themselves, Don't you dare to pretend otherwise.

The whole universe is at stake, and they decide vendetta is more important.

[SeptimusMagistos]

Hey, does anyone think that maybe the reason the geth were isolationist was because they found out that throughout Council Space their very existence was a crime punishable by death?

[DeinonSlayer]

xtorma wrote...

Wrong. I brought legion onto the fleet in me2. The whole liveship knew about him, and that kind of information does not stay mum.

They didn't kill a reaper for "me" they killed a reaper because it was on their homeworld. They also had no qualms about blowing up a ship with shepard still on it. The quarians don't give a flock about shepard, or anyone other than themselves, Don't you dare to pretend otherwise.

The whole universe is at stake, and they decide vendetta is more important.

And who talked to Legion beyond the Admirals? One non-hostile Geth platform in three centuries of history does not change an entire society's perspective. You expect all of them to speculate their way to the conclusion? And you still consciously neglected to inform them about the upload and the Geth's disposition.

You mean the Reaper-controlled dreadnought broadcasting the Reaper signal that nobody could take down with its barriers up? Every other Geth on the ship is still hostile after unplugging Legion. They'd be making repairs. Gerrel didn't have to be such a dick about it, but destroying that ship was the right call.

The Quarians could have tried to hide. They instead took the initiative to retake their homeworld so they could offload their civilians and assist the rest of the galaxy in the war effort. The Geth, meanwhile, hid behind the veil - while the Quarians were deciding whether to go to war, the Geth were deciding which side to fight on.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 07 décembre 2012 - 04:16 .