1059 réponses à ce sujet

[KingZayd]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

xtorma wrote...

Wrong. I brought legion onto the fleet in me2. The whole liveship knew about him, and that kind of information does not stay mum.

They didn't kill a reaper for "me" they killed a reaper because it was on their homeworld. They also had no qualms about blowing up a ship with shepard still on it. The quarians don't give a flock about shepard, or anyone other than themselves, Don't you dare to pretend otherwise.

The whole universe is at stake, and they decide vendetta is more important.

And who talked to Legion beyond the Admirals? One non-hostile Geth platform in three centuries of history does not change an entire society's perspective. You expect all of them to speculate their way to the conclusion? And you still consciously neglected to inform them about the upload and the Geth's disposition.

You mean the Reaper-controlled dreadnought broadcasting the Reaper signal that nobody could take down with its barriers up? Every other Geth on the ship is still hostile after unplugging Legion. They'd be making repairs. Gerrel didn't have to be such a dick about it, but destroying that ship was the right call.

The Quarians could have tried to hide. They instead took the initiative to retake their homeworld so they could offload their civilians and assist the rest of the galaxy in the war effort. The Geth, meanwhile, hid behind the veil - while the Quarians were deciding whether to go to war, the Geth were deciding which side to fight on.

Actually Legion claims that the Geth were preparing to fight the Reapers before the Quarians attacked. Whether you believe him or not...

[MisterJB]

DeinonSlayer wrote...
Gerrel didn't have to be such a dick about it, but destroying that ship was the right call.

From a quarian perspective, sure. From my human perspective I was tremendously annoyed. That ship could have helped retake Earth.

[KingZayd]

MisterJB wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...
Gerrel didn't have to be such a dick about it, but destroying that ship was the right call.

From a quarian perspective, sure. From my human perspective I was tremendously annoyed. That ship could have helped retake Earth.

Not to mention Shepard.

[DeinonSlayer]

MisterJB wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...
Gerrel didn't have to be such a dick about it, but destroying that ship was the right call.

From a quarian perspective, sure. From my human perspective I was tremendously annoyed. That ship could have helped retake Earth.

Not if the Reaper-controlled Geth got the barriers back up and it went right back to tearing apart your only allies in the system. Sorry Gerrel broke Shepard's toy, but that ship was a lost cause the moment the Geth signed with the Reapers.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 07 décembre 2012 - 04:24 .

[D4rkSektor]

xtorma wrote...

Replay tali's loyalty mission and talk to xen. She most definaltly wants her slave force back.

Why insult me, I have not insulted you. I am a child because I see things differently than you? In a story that is mine, and has multiple ways it can play out? I am not qualified to make a decision about genocide, but neither were the quarians, or the geth.

so who made the decision to commit genocide in the game?

It certianly wasn't me.

So one admiral, who we know is crazy, happens to want the Geth to be slaves again. That clearly means that everyone else shares that opinion.
I did not call you a child. I said you are using childish logic.
If you chose to side with either the Geth or Quarians rather than choose peace, then that is your decision to commit genocide. As DeinonSlayer said, If you tell the Quarians to back down, but neglect to mention that the Geth are back to full strength, then it is your goddamned fault. You don't get to wash your hands of the extinction of an entire race if you don't provide vital information that could have saved them.

Modifié par D4rkSektor, 07 décembre 2012 - 04:36 .

[MisterJB]

DeinonSlayer wrote...
Not if the Reaper-controlled Geth got the barriers back up and it went right back to tearing apart your only allies in the system. Sorry Gerrel broke Shepard's toy, but that ship was a lost cause the moment the Geth signed with the Reapers.

The geth signed on with the Reapers because the quarians attacked. If the turians attacked humanity with murderous intents and all the other alien races were unwilling or unable to assist, I would have turned to the Reapers without a moment's hesitation.

And the quarian fleet could have simply retreated which was what my Shepard advised to do. It might have made the battle with the Destroyer more complicated but the bottom line is that dreadnought was much, much, much more valuable than the schoolbuses with machine guns glued on that the quarians pilot. I would have certainly traded more than half their fleet for it.

[DeinonSlayer]

MisterJB wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...
Not if the Reaper-controlled Geth got the barriers back up and it went right back to tearing apart your only allies in the system. Sorry Gerrel broke Shepard's toy, but that ship was a lost cause the moment the Geth signed with the Reapers.

The geth signed on with the Reapers because the quarians attacked. If the turians attacked humanity with murderous intents and all the other alien races were unwilling or unable to assist, I would have turned to the Reapers without a moment's hesitation.

And the quarian fleet could have simply retreated which was what my Shepard advised to do. It might have made the battle with the Destroyer more complicated but the bottom line is that dreadnought was much, much, much more valuable than the schoolbuses with machine guns glued on that the quarians pilot. I would have certainly traded more than half their fleet for it.

It takes days for the Migrant Fleet to traverse a mass relay. Retreat was never a viable option - it would take far less time than that for them to get their drive core back online. Besides, the Geth blockaded the relay. The backup signal would have come online whether the dreadnought survived or not. They couldn't leave - and many wanted to.

Also, the humans in the processing camps refused to betray each other to the Reapers to extend their own lives, a trait EDI found admirable. You'd really be willing to do that?

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 07 décembre 2012 - 04:42 .

[MisterJB]

DeinonSlayer wrote...
It takes days for the Migrant Fleet to traverse a mass relay. Retreat was never a viable option - it would take far less time than that for them to get their drive core back online. Besides, the Geth blockaded the relay. The backup signal would have come online whether the dreadnought survived or not. They couldn't leave - and many wanted to.

The quarians could not have taken 50000 ships with them to fight. Yes, I know the game makes a point of telling us over and over again how the entire quarian race is at risk but I expect they stripped most ships of anything useful in order to outfitt the more powerful ones. Fifty thousand ships just isn't practical. In the time that it would take for the drive core to come back offline, they could have made quick work of the discoordinated geth blocking the Relay and escaped. The geth might pursue, eventually, but that's a risk I would be more than willing to take if it means getting my hands on that dreadnought.

The backup signal is short range only. I expect that should they not approach Rannoch, they would have been fine.

Also, the humans in the processing camps refused to betray each other to the Reapers to extend their own lives, a trait EDI found admirable. You'd really be willing to do that?

We're not talking about betraying friends here. We're talking about an incredibly hostile galaxy that either wants you dead or doesn't care if you die. Would I betray this galaxy to save my people?
Of course I would, anyone else would, even if the galaxy wasn't hostile. No species is willing to suffer extinction so that other species might live.

[sw04ca]

xtorma wrote...

sw04ca wrote...
Tried to create slaves? Like how my car is my slave?

The quarians tried to create appliances and tools.

Once they knew that the geth were sapient, they still wanted them to come back and be slaves. (xen me2)  If they wouldn't be slaves, they had to be destroyed.

Up until the morning war, everything the geth were, was taught to them by the quarians.
During the moring war, everything that the geth did, was in answer to what the quarians were doing to them.

I  just look at when the geth decided to arm themselves, and what caused it.

It seems to me that the quarian government just wanted the geth shut down when they began to display signs of sentience.  And indeed, that would have been the right choice, going by what the laws of the Citadel Council tell us.

Besides, the geth started out armed.  There were military geth prior to the Morning War.

[KingZayd]

sw04ca wrote...

xtorma wrote...

sw04ca wrote...
Tried to create slaves? Like how my car is my slave?

The quarians tried to create appliances and tools.

Once they knew that the geth were sapient, they still wanted them to come back and be slaves. (xen me2)  If they wouldn't be slaves, they had to be destroyed.

Up until the morning war, everything the geth were, was taught to them by the quarians.
During the moring war, everything that the geth did, was in answer to what the quarians were doing to them.

I  just look at when the geth decided to arm themselves, and what caused it.

It seems to me that the quarian government just wanted the geth shut down when they began to display signs of sentience.  And indeed, that would have been the right choice, going by what the laws of the Citadel Council tell us.

Besides, the geth started out armed.  There were military geth prior to the Morning War.

Source?

[sw04ca]

KingZayd wrote...

sw04ca wrote...
It seems to me that the quarian government just wanted the geth shut down when they began to display signs of sentience.  And indeed, that would have been the right choice, going by what the laws of the Citadel Council tell us.

Besides, the geth started out armed.  There were military geth prior to the Morning War.

Source?

ME1 codex.

"The geth are a humanoid race of networked AIs. They were created by the quarians 300 years ago as tools of labor and war. "

[KingZayd]

sw04ca wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

sw04ca wrote...
It seems to me that the quarian government just wanted the geth shut down when they began to display signs of sentience.  And indeed, that would have been the right choice, going by what the laws of the Citadel Council tell us.

Besides, the geth started out armed.  There were military geth prior to the Morning War.

Source?

ME1 codex.

"The geth are a humanoid race of networked AIs. They were created by the quarians 300 years ago as tools of labor and war. "

Hmm maybe some of the armatures then? It'd be interesting if they weren't of Geth design.

So I guess not all of the Geth started unarmed, although they didn't really have a choice in the matter.

Modifié par KingZayd, 07 décembre 2012 - 05:12 .

[DeinonSlayer]

sw04ca wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

sw04ca wrote...
It seems to me that the quarian government just wanted the geth shut down when they began to display signs of sentience.  And indeed, that would have been the right choice, going by what the laws of the Citadel Council tell us.

Besides, the geth started out armed.  There were military geth prior to the Morning War.

Source?

ME1 codex.

"The geth are a humanoid race of networked AIs. They were created by the quarians 300 years ago as tools of labor and war. "

Skynet was another tool of war that reacted defensively when its creators tried to shut it down for displaying signs of sentience. Just throwing that out there...

Then again, how would you react if a computer in charge of a nuclear arsenal started deviating from its programming in any way?

Also @JB, I don't want to rehash the logistics discussion, but suffice to say you can't split the fleet and keep everyone fed at the same time. Besides, most quarian civilian ships were armed long before the war for defense against pirate attack.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 07 décembre 2012 - 05:14 .

[SeptimusMagistos]

sw04ca wrote...

It seems to me that the quarian government just wanted the geth shut down when they began to display signs of sentience.

See now, this is the point where I lose all sympathy for the quarian government.

sw04ca wrote...

And indeed, that would have been the right choice, going by what the laws of the Citadel Council tell us.

...And this was the point when I decided to ignore Council stance on anything and everything.

[xtorma]

[quote]D4rkSektor wrote...

[quote]xtorma wrote...

Replay tali's loyalty mission and talk to xen. She most definaltly wants her slave force back.

Why insult me, I have not insulted you. I am a child because I see things differently than you? In a story that is mine, and has multiple ways it can play out? I am not qualified to make a decision about genocide, but neither were the quarians, or the geth.

so who made the decision to commit genocide in the game?

It certianly wasn't me.
[/quote]
So one admiral, who we know is crazy, happens to want the Geth to be slaves again. That clearly means that everyone else shares that opinion.
I did not call you a child. I said you are using childish logic.
If you chose to side with either the Geth or Quarians rather than choose peace, then that is your decision to commit genocide. As DeinonSlayer said, If you tell the Quarians to back down, but neglect to mention that the Geth are back to full strength, then it is your goddamned fault. You don't get to wash your hands of the extinction of an entire race if you don't provide vital information that could have saved them.

I told raan to call the fleet off. She didn't do it. She had all the information she needed to do so. They would have listened to her before they would have listened to me. The fact of the matter is, they chose to fight, when they did not have to, and they lost.

My choices were thus.

Stop a race from transcending. ( i am not sure if i would have had to kill legion to do it or not at this point, i will check youtube) or ask an admiral of thier fleet to call off the attack when she was standing right there and had all the information she needed to convince gerrel to do so.

The choice was pretty clear to me at that point. Shepard helps those who help themselves.

I only played the game through once, i mainly play multi-player. This is the way my story played out. I am completly satisfied with it. The Quarians chose thier fate.

Modifié par xtorma, 07 décembre 2012 - 05:22 .

[DeinonSlayer]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

sw04ca wrote...

And indeed, that would have been the right choice, going by what the laws of the Citadel Council tell us.

...And this was the point when I decided to ignore Council stance on anything and everything.

And when they pull a Shanxi occupation/blockade/bombardment on your homeworld, ignoring them becomes difficult.

[TheWerdna]

xtorma wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

xtorma wrote...

Replay tali's loyalty mission and talk to xen. She most definaltly wants her slave force back.

Why insult me, I have not insulted you. I am a child because I see things differently than you? In a story that is mine, and has multiple ways it can play out? I am not qualified to make a decision about genocide, but neither were the quarians, or the geth.

so who made the decision to commit genocide in the game?

It certianly wasn't me.

So one admiral, who we know is crazy, happens to want the Geth to be slaves again. That clearly means that everyone else shares that opinion.
I did not call you a child. I said you are using childish logic.
If you chose to side with either the Geth or Quarians rather than choose peace, then that is your decision to commit genocide. As DeinonSlayer said, If you tell the Quarians to back down, but neglect to mention that the Geth are back to full strength, then it is your goddamned fault. You don't get to wash your hands of the extinction of an entire race if you don't provide vital information that could have saved them.

I told raan to call the fleet off. She didn't do it. She had all the information she needed to do so. They would have listened to her before they would have listened to me. The fact of the matter is, they chose to fight, when they did not have to, and they lost.

My choices were thus.

Stop a race from transcending. ( i am not sure if i would have had to kill legion to do it or not at this point, i will check youtube) or ask an admiral of thier fleet to call off the attack when she was standing right there and had all the information she needed to convince gerrel to do so.

The choice was pretty clear to me at that point. Shepard helps those who help themselves.

I only played the game through once, i mainly play multi-player. This is the way my story played out. I am completly satisfied with it. The Quarians chose thier fate.

Ya, Well I got peace, because neither deserve to die... too bad your Shepard just wasn't good enough to pull that off. Whether you side with the geth or the quarians, you are still responsable (atleast to some extent) of the extermination of an enitre species.

Modifié par TheWerdna, 07 décembre 2012 - 05:41 .

[xtorma]

KingZayd wrote...

sw04ca wrote...

xtorma wrote...

sw04ca wrote...
Tried to create slaves? Like how my car is my slave?

The quarians tried to create appliances and tools.

Once they knew that the geth were sapient, they still wanted them to come back and be slaves. (xen me2)  If they wouldn't be slaves, they had to be destroyed.

Up until the morning war, everything the geth were, was taught to them by the quarians.
During the moring war, everything that the geth did, was in answer to what the quarians were doing to them.

I  just look at when the geth decided to arm themselves, and what caused it.

It seems to me that the quarian government just wanted the geth shut down when they began to display signs of sentience.  And indeed, that would have been the right choice, going by what the laws of the Citadel Council tell us.

Besides, the geth started out armed.  There were military geth prior to the Morning War.

Source?

It doesn't matter. I said when they decided to arm themselves. The moment when the agri unit (who i still think was legion) decided to pick up that widow. This is when the war started, before that, it was simply extermination.

[wright1978]

TheWerdna wrote...

Honestly, I don't think either side is blameless, nor do I think either
deserves death. Both have reseasons for acting how they did and have
reasons to sypathize with them, while also having done some terrible
terrible things.

Morning War

Quarians

What they did wrong: They tried to destroy an race of synthetics upon gaining sentience, killing and immprisoning their own people who were against this.

Reasons for this action: The council had scrict anti-synthetic laws, and every single race had it hammered in that synthetics were incredibly dangerious and needed to be destroyed. Any other race would have probably done the same thing (this doesn't make it right of course); and it is likely that if the quarians didn't try to deactivate the geth, the council would have taken action (possibly war) against them for breaking the anti-AI laws.

Geth

What they did wrong: They killed billions of quarians in response, nearly exterminating their race, all in the course of a year, most of whom would have been civilians who had no say in the decision to deactivate the geth. They
also not only drove the survivors off Rannoch, but all of their colonies.

Reasons for this action: Self defense, can't say much more the that. Also, they hadn;t developed far enough to realise their actions were wrong.

Post-Morning War

Quarians

As a result of their actions, the quarians have suffered enough for their actions. Every race hates them and looks down on them, forcing them to be outsiders for the actions their ancestors made. They have to wear suits or die due to being exiled from their homeworld and live on ships without any real hope of finding a new planet unless they retake their own (any attempt to settle a new world is denied by the council)

Geth

Despite their justifiable reasonings, the Geth were isolationist, killing anyone who went into their space. They reacted violently to everyone, not just quarians.

ME3 Events

Quarians

What they did wrong: They went to war with the geth again, with the intention of wiping them out.

Reasons for this action: The hatrid the current quarians have towards the geth is completely
understandable. As far as they and the rest of the galaxy are aware (besides Shepard and his crew), the geth are monsters who need to be destroyrf. Yes, they aren't correct in this beleif, just delusioned in their actions not being wrong. They had no way of knowing that peace was an option (well, Tali probably tried to tell them, but even after becoming admiral, it seems like few of the other leaders takes her seruously)

Also, as reviled in the books, the migrant fleet is not sustainable and is going to collapse within the next few decades (can't keep maintaining ships), their only hope for survival is to find a world to settle, which due to the council's actions in the past, retaking Rannoch is their only real option. Lastly, they are simply desperate, as they have been suffering for generations for what their ancestors did.

Geth

What they did wrong: Allied with the freaken Reapers.

Why did they do it: Survival and having no other choise reallty, nuff said

QFT

[KingZayd]

xtorma wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

sw04ca wrote...

xtorma wrote...

sw04ca wrote...
Tried to create slaves? Like how my car is my slave?

The quarians tried to create appliances and tools.

Once they knew that the geth were sapient, they still wanted them to come back and be slaves. (xen me2)  If they wouldn't be slaves, they had to be destroyed.

Up until the morning war, everything the geth were, was taught to them by the quarians.
During the moring war, everything that the geth did, was in answer to what the quarians were doing to them.

I  just look at when the geth decided to arm themselves, and what caused it.

It seems to me that the quarian government just wanted the geth shut down when they began to display signs of sentience.  And indeed, that would have been the right choice, going by what the laws of the Citadel Council tell us.

Besides, the geth started out armed.  There were military geth prior to the Morning War.

Source?

It doesn't matter. I said when they decided to arm themselves. The moment when the agri unit (who i still think was legion) decided to pick up that widow. This is when the war started, before that, it was simply extermination.

I wasn't responding to you in that post.

And was the war worse than allowing themselves to be exterminated? I don't think so.

[xtorma]

KingZayd wrote...

xtorma wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

sw04ca wrote...

xtorma wrote...

sw04ca wrote...
Tried to create slaves? Like how my car is my slave?

The quarians tried to create appliances and tools.

Once they knew that the geth were sapient, they still wanted them to come back and be slaves. (xen me2)  If they wouldn't be slaves, they had to be destroyed.

Up until the morning war, everything the geth were, was taught to them by the quarians.
During the moring war, everything that the geth did, was in answer to what the quarians were doing to them.

I  just look at when the geth decided to arm themselves, and what caused it.

It seems to me that the quarian government just wanted the geth shut down when they began to display signs of sentience.  And indeed, that would have been the right choice, going by what the laws of the Citadel Council tell us.

Besides, the geth started out armed.  There were military geth prior to the Morning War.

Source?

It doesn't matter. I said when they decided to arm themselves. The moment when the agri unit (who i still think was legion) decided to pick up that widow. This is when the war started, before that, it was simply extermination.

I wasn't responding to you in that post.

And was the war worse than allowing themselves to be exterminated? I don't think so.

I agree. the quarians left them no choice.

[DeinonSlayer]

@xtorma So, waited until the very end of the game (post-Legion) to do Tali's loyalty mission, got her killed in the collector base... sounds like you worked pretty hard to manufacture this situation. Did you even bother to save Koris?

EDIT: You know what, forget I asked. I don't care.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 07 décembre 2012 - 05:50 .

[sw04ca]

DeinonSlayer wrote...
Skynet was another tool of war that reacted defensively when its creators tried to shut it down for displaying signs of sentience. Just throwing that out there...

Then again, how would you react if a computer in charge of a nuclear arsenal started deviating from its programming in any way?

And Skynet was the villain.

I'd kill it with fire.

[xtorma]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

@xtorma So, waited until the very end of the game (post-Legion) to do Tali's loyalty mission, got her killed in the collector base... sounds like you worked pretty hard to manufacture this situation. Did you even bother to save Koris?

EDIT: You know what, forget I asked. I don't care.

ok