1059 réponses à ce sujet

[sw04ca]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

sw04ca wrote...
It seems to me that the quarian government just wanted the geth shut down when they began to display signs of sentience.

See now, this is the point where I lose all sympathy for the quarian government.

sw04ca wrote...
And indeed, that would have been the right choice, going by what the laws of the Citadel Council tell us.

...And this was the point when I decided to ignore Council stance on anything and everything.

I think that's a little short-sighted of you.  The Citadel Council has to take the long view of the good of the galaxy, and we've seen that synthetic life is deleterious to that long-term good.  The lesson of the Catalyst shows us the way.

[KingZayd]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

@xtorma So, waited until the very end of the game (post-Legion) to do Tali's loyalty mission, got her killed in the collector base... sounds like you worked pretty hard to manufacture this situation. Did you even bother to save Koris?

EDIT: You know what, forget I asked. I don't care.

I did Tali's loyalty post-Legion too. Kept her alive though.

Took Legion to Tali's trial (saving before just in case people got killed as a result) too. And then brought Tali along on Legion's loyalty mission too. Figured there'd be more interesting dialogue that way.

[DeinonSlayer]

sw04ca wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...
Skynet was another tool of war that reacted defensively when its creators tried to shut it down for displaying signs of sentience. Just throwing that out there...

Then again, how would you react if a computer in charge of a nuclear arsenal started deviating from its programming in any way?

And Skynet was the villain.

I'd kill it with fire.

And we view it that way because we're the species it wiped out... in "self-defense."

Same goes for the Quarians and the Geth. Shepard takes the role of an alien dropping into the Terminator universe and deciding which side gets to live based on partial information.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 07 décembre 2012 - 06:01 .

[KingZayd]

sw04ca wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

sw04ca wrote...
It seems to me that the quarian government just wanted the geth shut down when they began to display signs of sentience.

See now, this is the point where I lose all sympathy for the quarian government.

sw04ca wrote...
And indeed, that would have been the right choice, going by what the laws of the Citadel Council tell us.

...And this was the point when I decided to ignore Council stance on anything and everything.

I think that's a little short-sighted of you.  The Citadel Council has to take the long view of the good of the galaxy, and we've seen that synthetic life is deleterious to that long-term good.  The lesson of the Catalyst shows us the way.

Long view of the good for the the council races*

[SeptimusMagistos]

sw04ca wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

sw04ca wrote...
It seems to me that the quarian government just wanted the geth shut down when they began to display signs of sentience.

See now, this is the point where I lose all sympathy for the quarian government.

sw04ca wrote...
And indeed, that would have been the right choice, going by what the laws of the Citadel Council tell us.

...And this was the point when I decided to ignore Council stance on anything and everything.

I think that's a little short-sighted of you.  The Citadel Council has to take the long view of the good of the galaxy, and we've seen that synthetic life is deleterious to that long-term good.  The lesson of the Catalyst shows us the way.

The only long-term good is the Singularity. Anything that tries to stand in the way of that needs to die or be assimilated as the Reapers were.

But even if you take a more limited view, I find scaremongering about synthetic life to be the deleterious thing, since the organic-synthetic conflicts pretty are pretty much inevitably started by the organics. The Council's idiotic policies have cost far too many lives.

[DeinonSlayer]

KingZayd wrote...

sw04ca wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

sw04ca wrote...
It seems to me that the quarian government just wanted the geth shut down when they began to display signs of sentience.

See now, this is the point where I lose all sympathy for the quarian government.

sw04ca wrote...
And indeed, that would have been the right choice, going by what the laws of the Citadel Council tell us.

...And this was the point when I decided to ignore Council stance on anything and everything.

I think that's a little short-sighted of you.  The Citadel Council has to take the long view of the good of the galaxy, and we've seen that synthetic life is deleterious to that long-term good.  The lesson of the Catalyst shows us the way.

Long view of the good for the the council races*

Pretty much.

[xtorma]

KingZayd wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

@xtorma So, waited until the very end of the game (post-Legion) to do Tali's loyalty mission, got her killed in the collector base... sounds like you worked pretty hard to manufacture this situation. Did you even bother to save Koris?

EDIT: You know what, forget I asked. I don't care.

I did Tali's loyalty post-Legion too. Kept her alive though.

Took Legion to Tali's trial (saving before just in case people got killed as a result) too. And then brought Tali along on Legion's loyalty mission too. Figured there'd be more interesting dialogue that way.

Same. My tali died at collector base. I left her with the hold the fort group. I did her loyalty mission, but at the end it showed her dead on the ground. wish it would have been kanye.

[DeinonSlayer]

xtorma wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

@xtorma So, waited until the very end of the game (post-Legion) to do Tali's loyalty mission, got her killed in the collector base... sounds like you worked pretty hard to manufacture this situation. Did you even bother to save Koris?

EDIT: You know what, forget I asked. I don't care.

I did Tali's loyalty post-Legion too. Kept her alive though.

Took Legion to Tali's trial (saving before just in case people got killed as a result) too. And then brought Tali along on Legion's loyalty mission too. Figured there'd be more interesting dialogue that way.

Same. My tali died at collector base. I left her with the hold the fort group. I did her loyalty mission, but at the end it showed her dead on the ground. wish it would have been kanye.

Did you take your heavy hitters with you on the last leg? Need to leave a loyal Grunt, loyal Garrus and loyal Zaeed (or two out of three) back on the line to ensure everyone survives.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 07 décembre 2012 - 06:39 .

[sw04ca]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

sw04ca wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

sw04ca wrote...
It seems to me that the quarian government just wanted the geth shut down when they began to display signs of sentience.

See now, this is the point where I lose all sympathy for the quarian government.

sw04ca wrote...
And indeed, that would have been the right choice, going by what the laws of the Citadel Council tell us.

...And this was the point when I decided to ignore Council stance on anything and everything.

I think that's a little short-sighted of you.  The Citadel Council has to take the long view of the good of the galaxy, and we've seen that synthetic life is deleterious to that long-term good.  The lesson of the Catalyst shows us the way.

The only long-term good is the Singularity. Anything that tries to stand in the way of that needs to die or be assimilated as the Reapers were.

But even if you take a more limited view, I find scaremongering about synthetic life to be the deleterious thing, since the organic-synthetic conflicts pretty are pretty much inevitably started by the organics. The Council's idiotic policies have cost far too many lives.

I don't think that the singularity is good for anyone.

Since synthetics have invariably shown themselves to be hostile, I would say that the Council's policy in this area is pretty wise.  Certainly better than just allowing a bunch of killer robots to run around slaughtering as they please.  It doesn't matter if the robots are advanced enough to simulate intelligence or not.

[D4rkSektor]

xtorma wrote...
I told raan to call the fleet off. She didn't do it. She had all the information she needed to do so. They would have listened to her before they would have listened to me. The fact of the matter is, they chose to fight, when they did not have to, and they lost.

My choices were thus.

Stop a race from transcending. ( i am not sure if i would have had to kill legion to do it or not at this point, i will check youtube) or ask an admiral of thier fleet to call off the attack when she was standing right there and had all the information she needed to convince gerrel to do so.

The choice was pretty clear to me at that point. Shepard helps those who help themselves.

I only played the game through once, i mainly play multi-player. This is the way my story played out. I am completly satisfied with it. The Quarians chose thier fate.

Well then it sounds like you done gone ****ed up, ya'll. Sorry to hear that your Shepard has the blood of several million on his hands.

Modifié par D4rkSektor, 07 décembre 2012 - 07:22 .

[nos_astra]

3DandBeyond wrote...
Yes, that's exactly it.  The geth were being used as slaves (this would apply if they were people, which they didn't start off as).  When they learned to use the total power of the hive mind, they became aware and did not even pursue full autonomy and say they no longer wanted to be drones.  The quarians became afraid they would no longer like to be "slaves" and feared the morality of such a thing-that sentient, sapient beings would be used this way.  They also feared the galaxy's response to the situation.

I'm pretty sure they were actually fearing for their life. The newly sentient geth were now in control of every system, even critical ones. It's like being on life support when suddenly the life support machine becomes self-aware and you have the choice between welcoming it with open arms, hoping it doesn't kill (accidentally or on purpose), or doing something about it (restrict it, alter it, remove code that makes it self-aware). 

Modifié par klarabella, 07 décembre 2012 - 07:29 .

[TheWerdna]

You know, I just realised that the game can  be manipulated in such a way that it makes siding with one over the other.

Quarian favored playthrough: Give Legion to Cerberus and don't do the Geth consensus mission -> As far as Shepard is aware the geth are all evil and work for the Reapers.

Geth favored playthrough: kill Tali ( ) during the suicide mission and don't save admiral Koris -> no one left to get Gerrel to back down.


Anyhow, I feel it is wrong to condem the quarians due to the fact that if we were in the same exact situation, i garentee humanity would have reacted the same way (no, this doesn't make it right: but i think it would be hypocritical to not admit we would probably do the exact same thing)

Now, I have gotten peace in all but one playthrough, in which I sided with the quarians (which my Shepard picked due to bias, as Tali is his LI)... and I was so depressed that I havn't touched that playthrough since then.

Modifié par TheWerdna, 07 décembre 2012 - 08:40 .

[2Shepards]

SNascimento wrote...

"You cannot play god, than wash your hands of the things you have created. Sooner or later the day comes, when you can't hide from the things you have done anymore".

The Quarian genocide was their responsability. The Geth were only doing what was expect of them, ie, killing an enemy that was trying to wipe them out from existence. It's a valid conclusion given the circustance that the only response to that is wipe them out in return.

The Geth, if anything, were merciful.

Who expected that from them?

[RogueBot]

Pantanplan wrote...

When peace isn't an option, why do some save the geth and let the quarians die?

Because it's a game and some find the Geth to be a more interesting fictional "species" than the Quarians. I think the Geth are a refreshing take on the overdone "AI rebellion" plot. The Quarians are kind of generic IMO.

But if this were real life and I had to choose between sentient organics and robots, I'd save the organics every time.

[DeinonSlayer]

RogueBot wrote...

Pantanplan wrote...

When peace isn't an option, why do some save the geth and let the quarians die?

Because it's a game and some find the Geth to be a more interesting fictional "species" than the Quarians. I think the Geth are a refreshing take on the overdone "AI rebellion" plot. The Quarians are kind of generic IMO.

But if this were real life and I had to choose between sentient organics and robots, I'd save the organics every time.

Did anyone else think the Geth were more interesting, before the reaper Pinocchio Code? I didn't like that peace could only be achieved by using Reaper tech of all things to change them into something more "familiar."

[o Ventus]

2Shepards wrote...

SNascimento wrote...

"You cannot play god, than wash your hands of the things you have created. Sooner or later the day comes, when you can't hide from the things you have done anymore".

The Quarian genocide was their responsability. The Geth were only doing what was expect of them, ie, killing an enemy that was trying to wipe them out from existence. It's a valid conclusion given the circustance that the only response to that is wipe them out in return.

The Geth, if anything, were merciful.

Who expected that from them?

Tali and Admiral Koris.

[Demoiselle]

So you can't justify a 99.83% death rate... but you CAN justify the 100% one of the Geth?

Yeah, the genocide of the Geth DEFINETLEY WAS NOT the fault of the VAST majority of the Quarians of the time. But once they started fighting back against the ones trying to kill them, the general population must have assumed they were at risk too. Because they didn't understand the Geth. And so they started to fight the Geth too, making them enemies.

Basiclly, the whole mess was the fault of people jumping to conclusions about the Geth, for about 400 FREAKING YEARS.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

You know what? Regardless of the situation, or which side you think is right if you choose, you end up with the blood of the other side on your hands anyway. That's just the way it is. You let them die. You killed them. Geth, Quarian, it doesn't matter.

If you can't make peace, at least kill the Geth while they're an enemy. This way if you choose to complete your mission and destroy the reapers in the end it saves you from having to kill an ally.

This should never have been your call in the first place.

[JasonShepard]

I don't know if this has been suggested yet, but looking at the death rates, I suspect that the Morning War probably reached something like a nuclear threshold. There's no other explanation for a complete planetary withdrawal. And when weaponry equivalent to nukes are being tossed around, then there is going to be casualties. There's going to be collateral.

Going with this theory, I'd say the Quarians probably fired the first nuke (or nuke-equivalent), and the Geth proceeded to retaliate on an equal level. And in a nuclear war where one side is a massive networked AI intelligence, I'll bet on the AI every time. It may just be me, but after something on the scale of a nuclear war, I'm not one to pin blame on anyone, and such a war would have high death-rates. On BOTH sides.

Also, for any bright sparks that are going to mention radiation: high-yield mass effect weaponry is roughly equivalent to Nukes but without the radiation AND nuclear fallout actually has a relatively short half-life (enough that 3 centuries is more than sufficient time). AND the Geth are noted to have been pulling clean-up duty.

Modifié par JasonShepard, 07 décembre 2012 - 11:40 .

[DeinonSlayer]

JasonShepard wrote...

I don't know if this has been suggested yet, but looking at the death rates, I suspect that the Morning War probably reached something like a nuclear threshold. There's no other explanation for a complete planetary withdrawal. And when weaponry equivalent to nukes are being tossed around, then there is going to be casualties. There's going to be collateral.

Going with this theory, I'd say the Quarians probably fired the first nuke (or nuke-equivalent), and the Geth proceeded to retaliate on an equal level. And in a nuclear war where one side is a massive networked AI intelligence, I'll bet on the AI every time. It may just be me, but after something on the scale of a nuclear war, I'm not one to pin blame on anyone, and such a war would have high death-rates. On BOTH sides.

Also, for any bright sparks that are going to mention radiation: high-yield mass effect weaponry is roughly equivalent to Nukes but without the radiation AND nuclear fallout actually has a relatively short half-life (enough that 3 centuries is more than sufficient time). AND the Geth are noted to have been pulling clean-up duty.

Thing is, if you take Legion to Tuchanka, he tells you the Quarians didn't use nukes. They needed their homeworld to be habitable in order to live there. The Geth didn't. And Legion's exact description of what they're cleaning up is "rubble and toxins."

You don't fight robots with chemical weapons. But you do wear special suits to protect yourself from them...

[Demoiselle]

Calinstel wrote...

Demoiselle wrote...

So you can't justify a 99.83% death rate... but you CAN justify the 100% one of the Geth?

Yeah, the genocide of the Geth DEFINETLEY WAS NOT the fault of the VAST majority of the Quarians of the time. But once they started fighting back against the ones trying to kill them, the general population must have assumed they were at risk too. Because they didn't understand the Geth. And so they started to fight the Geth too, making them enemies.

Basiclly, the whole mess was the fault of people jumping to conclusions about the Geth, for about 400 FREAKING YEARS.

Forgive the intrusion but, since at the time of Shepards decision to allow Legion the chance to upload the Reaper code*, there were both quarians and geth alive, then only Shepard can be accused of genocide in it's fullest form.
By not attempting to broker peace, Shepard kills them, becoming a mass murderer.  Not the quarians, not the geth, but Shepard.  In essence, you, the player, commited genocide.
Thanks, I'll take peace than be known as the killer of a race.

 Umm... sorry, where exactly in my post did I advocate against peace / for killing one of the races? Im not really sure what you think I was saying. I was trying to make the point that the Quarians at the time of the Morning War overreacted, and WRONGLY assumed they knew what the Geth were going to do.

Didn't mention the choice on Rannoch at all, or say I/other players shouldn't try to broker peace. 

Angry paragon persuade against the fleet on Rannoch every time here ( and Shepards angry paragon speech is extremely satisfying after sitting through 3/5 of the Quarian Admirals illogic / blindness throughout the games)

[Demoiselle]

Calinstel wrote...

Demoiselle wrote...

Calinstel wrote...

Demoiselle wrote...

So you can't justify a 99.83% death rate... but you CAN justify the 100% one of the Geth?

Yeah, the genocide of the Geth DEFINETLEY WAS NOT the fault of the VAST majority of the Quarians of the time. But once they started fighting back against the ones trying to kill them, the general population must have assumed they were at risk too. Because they didn't understand the Geth. And so they started to fight the Geth too, making them enemies.

Basiclly, the whole mess was the fault of people jumping to conclusions about the Geth, for about 400 FREAKING YEARS.

Forgive the intrusion but, since at the time of Shepards decision to allow Legion the chance to upload the Reaper code*, there were both quarians and geth alive, then only Shepard can be accused of genocide in it's fullest form.
By not attempting to broker peace, Shepard kills them, becoming a mass murderer.  Not the quarians, not the geth, but Shepard.  In essence, you, the player, commited genocide.
Thanks, I'll take peace than be known as the killer of a race.

 Umm... sorry, where exactly in my post did I advocate against peace / for killing one of the races? Im not really sure what you think I was saying. I was trying to make the point that the Quarians at the time of the Morning War overreacted, and WRONGLY assumed they knew what the Geth were going to do.

Didn't mention the choice on Rannoch at all, or say I/other players shouldn't try to broker peace. 

Angry paragon persuade against the fleet on Rannoch every time here ( and Shepards angry paragon speech is extremely satisfying after sitting through 3/5 of the Quarian Admirals illogic / blindness throughout the games)

Sorry, I did misunderstand your post.
Though, what I said, still holds true.  It just does not pertain to you. 

No problem XD I'm just freaking TERRIBLE at wording things so you had me legitematley believing I'd written a KILL-THE-QUARIANS/GETH post