1059 réponses à ce sujet

[salomi7]

I don't know if this has been mentioned but this was my process.

During my first playthrough I chose the Geth, honestly because they had a better fighting force then the Quarians and I was hoping the Quarians would be able set aside their personal vendetta for the good of the galaxy and fight the Reapers. But the Quarians couldn't get over the their bitterness towards the Geth and doomed themselves. The Quarians had no one to blame but themselves.

And if I did choose the Quarians I would be putting there entire race in jeopardy when they went up against the Reapers. I would assume they wouldn't put any of their civies in the fight but still I would be using their ships, resources, people to get Earth back. Sure it was to save the galaxy and if we won most likely the Quarian fleet would be severely damaged if not completely destroyed. It would be better to throw the Geth at the Reapers and see what they could do because the Geth are machine after all.

Just my two cents.

[thehomeworld]

Well the point to getting back Rannoch was so that the civilians could stay somewhere reasonably safe and start up a colony by the time the fighters came home (if they came home) then they took all the soldiers with them to fight the war.

[Scottus4]

Quarian leadership is stupid. Stupid stupid stupid. Stupid x100. They brought the Geth to life, and since they couldn't control them, they tried to kill them. The Quarians were also killing their own people who were aiding the Geth too. Instead of trying to find a peaceful co-existence with this new intelligence, they fought them until the Geth had the upper hand, and kept fighting even though the Geth were willing to let them retreat, which the Geth let them do after being forced to wipe out a large amount of their population.

The Geth have stayed within their home systems, not seeking out the Quarians or other organics to fight - it has been organics that are constantly attacking them and performing cruel experiments akin to torturing babies. It would have been in the Geth's best interests to wipe out the Quarians and all organics, and yet they chose to isolate themselves. After not disturbing galactic society for hundreds of years, the Quarians decided to attack them out of the blue, with their CIVILIAN SHIPS. The Quarians have been smug about it too, believing that if they win against the Geth, they will become the strongest power in the galaxy. Their leadership is sick, twisted, and stupid. If there weren't a "get out of dilemma free" card with persuade options, I would have chosen the Geth. I'm not going to willing destroy the Quarian people, including innocent men, women, and children who had no say in the matter just because I think their leadership is bad, but if it really came down to it, the Geth have always, with the exception of the heretics, been about their own preservation. Shepard has made the point before - if Geth were organic, the galactic community would have brought their might down upon the Quarians because they would be considered the greatest war criminals in the galaxy.

[D4rkSektor]

Scottus4 wrote...

Quarian leadership is stupid. Stupid stupid stupid. Stupid x100. They brought the Geth to life, and since they couldn't control them, they tried to kill them. The Quarians were also killing their own people who were aiding the Geth too. Instead of trying to find a peaceful co-existence with this new intelligence, they fought them until the Geth had the upper hand, and kept fighting even though the Geth were willing to let them retreat, which the Geth let them do after being forced to wipe out a large amount of their population.

The Geth have stayed within their home systems, not seeking out the Quarians or other organics to fight - it has been organics that are constantly attacking them and performing cruel experiments akin to torturing babies. It would have been in the Geth's best interests to wipe out the Quarians and all organics, and yet they chose to isolate themselves. After not disturbing galactic society for hundreds of years, the Quarians decided to attack them out of the blue, with their CIVILIAN SHIPS. The Quarians have been smug about it too, believing that if they win against the Geth, they will become the strongest power in the galaxy. Their leadership is sick, twisted, and stupid. If there weren't a "get out of dilemma free" card with persuade options, I would have chosen the Geth. I'm not going to willing destroy the Quarian people, including innocent men, women, and children who had no say in the matter just because I think their leadership is bad, but if it really came down to it, the Geth have always, with the exception of the heretics, been about their own preservation. Shepard has made the point before - if Geth were organic, the galactic community would have brought their might down upon the Quarians because they would be considered the greatest war criminals in the galaxy.

Dat ignorance.
Were you paying attention at all in ME1 and 2?

[MysticSpace]

ForThessia wrote...

The Geth are not innocent in the slightest and I kill them every time on Rannoch. You don't come that close to killing off an entire people and get to play the victim card. That and their constant aligning with reapers made the choice very simple for me.

  The Quarians aren't innocent either.  They knew damn well it was illegal to make AI from the very being and I don't by that a few innocent firmware updates created the geth and don't forget the quarians killed off innocent people who didn't want to turn over their property to be destroyed.

[JasonShepard]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

JasonShepard wrote...

I don't know if this has been suggested yet, but looking at the death rates, I suspect that the Morning War probably reached something like a nuclear threshold. There's no other explanation for a complete planetary withdrawal. And when weaponry equivalent to nukes are being tossed around, then there is going to be casualties. There's going to be collateral.

Going with this theory, I'd say the Quarians probably fired the first nuke (or nuke-equivalent), and the Geth proceeded to retaliate on an equal level. And in a nuclear war where one side is a massive networked AI intelligence, I'll bet on the AI every time. It may just be me, but after something on the scale of a nuclear war, I'm not one to pin blame on anyone, and such a war would have high death-rates. On BOTH sides.

Also, for any bright sparks that are going to mention radiation: high-yield mass effect weaponry is roughly equivalent to Nukes but without the radiation AND nuclear fallout actually has a relatively short half-life (enough that 3 centuries is more than sufficient time). AND the Geth are noted to have been pulling clean-up duty.

Thing is, if you take Legion to Tuchanka, he tells you the Quarians didn't use nukes. They needed their homeworld to be habitable in order to live there. The Geth didn't. And Legion's exact description of what they're cleaning up is "rubble and toxins."

You don't fight robots with chemical weapons. But you do wear special suits to protect yourself from them...

Huh. Interesting. Didn't know about that dialogue. Don't suppose you have a youtube video of it? (I'm not doubting you, I'd just like to hear the exact wording and none of my ME2 saves are in the right place.)

However, if the Quarians were, say, throwing around high-yield EMP blasts, then I would argue that the Geth were justified in using chemical weapons. My argument works even without nukes: Suppose Group A is massively vulnerable to a certain attack - let's call it alpha. And Group B is massively vulnerable to attack beta. Group A and B are at war.

Let's say A starts using beta weaponry against B. B will lose this war, with an exceedingly high death rate among B's people, unless it starts using alpha weaponry against A in order to defeat A first. It's called escalation.

And that's how I view the Morning War. Thing is, we don't know what the death rate was among the Geth. It could easily have been similar to that of the Quarians, but with the Geth being the ones that managed to hang on to Rannoch. We don't even know which of them first started using high yield weaponry. If both sides had seen signs of escalation already, then it doesn't really matter who fired the first EMP or Chemical Weapon.

I share the blame out between both sides, giving a bit more to the Quarians for (A) starting it in the very first place and ( never really giving peace a chance. However, that doesn't mean the Geth never had the chance to, I don't know, flee Rannoch during the Morning War.

[DeinonSlayer]

JasonShepard wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

JasonShepard wrote...

I don't know if this has been suggested yet, but looking at the death rates, I suspect that the Morning War probably reached something like a nuclear threshold. There's no other explanation for a complete planetary withdrawal. And when weaponry equivalent to nukes are being tossed around, then there is going to be casualties. There's going to be collateral.

Going with this theory, I'd say the Quarians probably fired the first nuke (or nuke-equivalent), and the Geth proceeded to retaliate on an equal level. And in a nuclear war where one side is a massive networked AI intelligence, I'll bet on the AI every time. It may just be me, but after something on the scale of a nuclear war, I'm not one to pin blame on anyone, and such a war would have high death-rates. On BOTH sides.

Also, for any bright sparks that are going to mention radiation: high-yield mass effect weaponry is roughly equivalent to Nukes but without the radiation AND nuclear fallout actually has a relatively short half-life (enough that 3 centuries is more than sufficient time). AND the Geth are noted to have been pulling clean-up duty.

Thing is, if you take Legion to Tuchanka, he tells you the Quarians didn't use nukes. They needed their homeworld to be habitable in order to live there. The Geth didn't. And Legion's exact description of what they're cleaning up is "rubble and toxins."

You don't fight robots with chemical weapons. But you do wear special suits to protect yourself from them...

Huh. Interesting. Didn't know about that dialogue. Don't suppose you have a youtube video of it? (I'm not doubting you, I'd just like to hear the exact wording and none of my ME2 saves are in the right place.)

However, if the Quarians were, say, throwing around high-yield EMP blasts, then I would argue that the Geth were justified in using chemical weapons. My argument works even without nukes: Suppose Group A is massively vulnerable to a certain attack - let's call it alpha. And Group B is massively vulnerable to attack beta. Group A and B are at war.

Let's say A starts using beta weaponry against B. B will lose this war, with an exceedingly high death rate among B's people, unless it starts using alpha weaponry against A in order to defeat A first. It's called escalation.

And that's how I view the Morning War. Thing is, we don't know what the death rate was among the Geth. It could easily have been similar to that of the Quarians, but with the Geth being the ones that managed to hang on to Rannoch. We don't even know which of them first started using high yield weaponry. If both sides had seen signs of escalation already, then it doesn't really matter who fired the first EMP or Chemical Weapon.

I share the blame out between both sides, giving a bit more to the Quarians for (A) starting it in the very first place and ( never really giving peace a chance. However, that doesn't mean the Geth never had the chance to, I don't know, flee Rannoch during the Morning War.

Legion on Tuchanka

Legion: The Krogan chose to bomb their own world into this condition. The Creators were not so aggressive during the Morning War.

Tali: We expected to get our worlds back. We didn't want to destroy them.

Legion: We are glad you did not. You could not endure the conditions Krogan thrive in.

Something people need to keep in mind is that Legion does not represent the Geth's attitude at the time of the morning war. Legion's perspective is only gained in the last two years, during his travels beyond the Veil, acting independently from the rest of the Consensus. His views don't transfer to the rest of them unless he makes it back, meaning the Geth VI is a better representative of the Geth mindset during the Morning War (possibly with a dash of Heretic thrown in). If Legion returns to the Consensus after ME2, his perspective is incorporated into the Consensus at large, and they start to view their own actions in a different light.

The VI doesn't acknowledge the sacrifices made by Quarians who sympathized with them (unlike Legion), expresses no remorse at the prospect of annihilating the flotilla (unlike Legion), and, also unlike Legion, offers no quarter. When Legion is present, the Geth stand down if the Quarians are first convinced to do so. At the conclusion of the Morning War, the only Quarians who survived were those who managed to escape the planet - in retreat, they were no longer recognized as a threat, and the Geth relented, uncertain of the ramifications of destroying the entire species (would it provoke retaliation from the other races that the Geth couldn't survive?).

I've said this before, but it bears repeating: the Geth have killed every organic to enter their territory for the last three centuries without responding to any attempts made to communicate with them. We don't know exactly when the Geth stopped communicating with organics, but if it happened during the war itself, it would mean that any attempt by the Quarians to surrender would have been ignored. This kind of behavior is in-character for the Geth VI, but not for Legion.

When Geth die, their memories and experience are transmitted to other platforms - ME2 downplays Geth casualties in the Morning War, with the Geth Culture codex entry saying the Geth would use thousands of mobile platforms to assault Quarian positions during the Morning War. There's also dialogue:

Legion: "We maintain mobile platforms on creator worlds to clean rubble and toxins left by the Morning War. We know of similar actions by humans on Earth."

Shepard: "Similar actions?

Legion: "At Wadi-us-Salaam. Arlington. Rookwood. Tyne Cot. Piskarevskoye. Auschwitz-Birkenau."

Shepard: "Those are cemetaries.  Memorials."

Legion: "It is important to your species to preserve them, though you do not use the land. Can you explain?"

Shepard: "The living visit those places to remember the dead. But it sounds like geth don't die. Your memories live on."

Legion: "The creators died. Perhaps we do it for them."

It is believed half a million people are interred at Wadi-us-Salaam each year. Piskarevkoye has 420,000 civilians and 50,000 soldiers buried in mass graves, with a plaque memorializing over 640,000 who starved to death in Leningrad in World War 2. We all know what happened at Auschwitz-Birkenau. Tyne Cot is a World War 1 cemetary, and King George the Fifth delivered an interesting speech there:

We can truly say that the whole circuit of the Earth is girdled with the graves of our dead. In the course of my pilgrimage, I have many times asked myself whether there can be more potent advocates of peace upon Earth through the years to come, than this massed multitude of silent witnesses to the desolation of war.—King George V, 11 May 1922

It seems to me the Geth didn't really understand what they were doing at the time. They didn't know when to stop (at least, I hope that's the case - the alternative is that they acted out of malice). If Legion makes it back to them, they have a better understanding of organics, and don't ultimately employ genocidal aggression in "self-defense."

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 08 décembre 2012 - 03:05 .

[JasonShepard]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Legion on Tuchanka

Legion: The Krogan chose to bomb their own world into this condition. The Creators were not so aggressive during the Morning War.

Tali: We expected to get our worlds back. We didn't want to destroy them.

Legion: We are glad you did not. You could not endure the conditions Krogan thrive in.

Something people need to keep in mind is that Legion does not represent the Geth's attitude at the time of the morning war. Legion's perspective is only gained in the last two years, during his travels beyond the Veil, acting independently from the rest of the Consensus. His views don't transfer to the rest of them unless he makes it back, meaning the Geth VI is a better representative of the Geth mindset during the Morning War (possibly with a dash of Heretic thrown in). If Legion returns to the Consensus after ME2, his perspective is incorporated into the Consensus at large, and they start to view their own actions in a different light.

True, I had forgotten this. Good point, and well made.

The VI doesn't acknowledge the sacrifices made by Quarians who sympathized with them (unlike Legion), expresses no remorse at the prospect of annihilating the flotilla (unlike Legion), and, also unlike Legion, offers no quarter. When Legion is present, the Geth stand down if the Quarians are first convinced to do so. At the conclusion of the Morning War, the only Quarians who survived were those who managed to escape the planet - in retreat, they were no longer recognized as a threat, and the Geth relented, uncertain of the ramifications of destroying the entire species (would it provoke retaliation from the other races that the Geth couldn't survive?).

I've said this before, but it bears repeating: the Geth have killed every organic to enter their territory for the last three centuries without responding to any attempts made to communicate with them. We don't know exactly when the Geth stopped communicating with organics, but if it happened during the war itself, it would mean that any attempt by the Quarians to surrender would have been ignored.

When Geth die, their memories and experience are transmitted to other platforms - ME2 downplays Geth casualties in the Morning War, with the Geth Culture codex entry saying the Geth would use thousands of mobile platforms to assault Quarian positions during the Morning War. There's also dialogue:

Legion: "We maintain mobile platforms on creator worlds to clean rubble and toxins left by the Morning War. We know of similar actions by humans on Earth."

Shepard: "Similar actions?

Legion: "At Wadi-us-Salaam. Arlington. Rookwood. Tyne Cot. Piskarevskoye. Auschwitz-Birkenau."

Shepard: "Those are cemetaries.  Memorials."

Legion: "It is important to your species to preserve them, though you do not use the land. Can you explain?"

Shepard: "The living visit those places to remember the dead. But it sounds like geth don't die. Your memories live on."

Legion: "The creators died. Perhaps we do it for them."

It is believed half a million people are interred at Wadi-us-Salaam each year. Piskarevkoye has 420,000 civilians and 50,000 soldiers buried in mass graves, with a plaque memorializing over 640,000 who starved to death in Leningrad in World War 2. We all know what happened at Auschwitz-Birkenau. Tyne Cot is a World War 1 cemetary, and King George the Fifth delivered an interesting speech there:

We can truly say that the whole circuit of the Earth is girdled with the graves of our dead. In the course of my pilgrimage, I have many times asked myself whether there can be more potent advocates of peace upon Earth through the years to come, than this massed multitude of silent witnesses to the desolation of war.—King George V, 11 May 1922

It seems to me the Geth didn't really understand what they were doing at the time. They didn't know when to stop (at least, I hope that's the case - the alternative is that they acted out of malice). If Legion makes it back to them, they have a better understanding of organics, and don't ultimately employ genocidal aggression in "self-defense."

The whole issue of justification and blame is very... grey. We have very little idea how the geth think, let alone how their thought patterns evolved when they achieved consciousness and immediately found themselves in a warbecause of that consciousness. I see their actions as logical: the over-riding evidence is that organics, and particularly Quarians, are trouble. Other than that... I'm lost. Yes, the Geth have acted without morals. But, to an extent, that's because they didn't understand morality. So who's to blame here? The victims who lost their planet? Or the children who were trying to defend themselves?

I think... well, in every game I've played, I've achieved peace. But if that isn't possible, I'd side with Legion, then Tali, then the Geth VI. In that order. I think the Geth are something worth preserving, but in a choice between the VI's Geth and the Quarians, I'd pick the Quarians, because there isn't enough time in the Reaper War to make the Geth understand. And good grief, does that sound cold...