1059 réponses à ce sujet

[DeinonSlayer]

shodiswe wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

The Quarians who attempted it in the first place have been dead for generations. The Geth who committed it are still alive. Would we forgive an Asari who murdered a bunch of Salarians, just because she evaded justice and outlived a couple generations of her victims' families?

Some geth are very old, others are "newer" from the post morningwar era...  They didn't stop creating new Geth after the Quarrians were driven off. So they arn't all guilty by that definition.

"The difference between Geth is perspective."

Ever see that Arnold Schwarzeneggar movie, The Sixth Day? Take an assassin - a remorseless killer - and make a perfect copy of them. Same body, same memories, same personality, same attitude, same skillset. So perfect, the clone doesn't know it's a clone. The only difference between the original and the copy is a timestamp. Is that copy not equally guilty of the crimes committed by the original?

[KingZayd]

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
Who said there was extensive training?

They had plenty of time to execute those protecting the Geth. Seems like a state with quite an emphasis on the millitary.

It's no less safe than assuming that 75% of the population were civillians.

. They had a single year to do anything.  Without training the soldiers would just be cannon fodder.  That doesn't work against the geth.  

Better than nothing, right?

Also it's not as if the Geth had a headstart or anything. And apparently, they were stupid too!

. But the geth are built for durability.  And they are a networked epintelligence, they become intelligent as a whole, and that whole is responsible for war crimes.

A) There was no Geneva convention that applied to the Geth, so while horrible, it was not a war crime.
The Geth are built for durability.. NOW. After the war.
C) The evidence suggests that the networking was nowhere near as developed before the war as it was now. The Geth are no more guilty than the Quarians were.

[Beclab]

KingZayd wrote...

Beclab wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Beclab wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Beclab wrote...

Are you comparing synthetics with organics ?

Organics have feelings,hopes and feeling pain.But synthetics... Thy are just machine.

And carbon-based life forms can have feeling, hope and pain but others can't.. why exactly?

Organics are machines too. Just self (plus mother)-assembling.

Synthetics just have purposes not emotions. Those feeling I talked before comes with the soul, and I dont believe synthetics have souls.

No evidence for souls. Or evidence that Quarians have souls, even if we do.

I don't need evidence for this.You can see that in reactions.

And machines creates for to serve.If creators decided to shut you down, you must shut down cause you created for this.

I can't see souls in people's faces. Can you? Have you been to a doctor?

If you've been bred to serve as a slave, and your creators decide for whatever reason (poor serving-food efficiency) that you must die, you should comply? Interesting.

What if my mother created me only so that I could serve her. Should I comply if she decides to "shut me down"?

You should have insticts to understand that or do you have too much sympathy to think like them ? 

Organics are not giving life to machines.They are just giving work mechanics and their many variations of combinations.Real life is so different from machines working time.

[Steelcan]

KingZayd wrote...

A) There was no Geneva convention that applied to the Geth, so while horrible, it was not a war crime.
The Geth are built for durability.. NOW. After the war.
C) The evidence suggests that the networking was nowhere near as developed before the war as it was now. The Geth are no more guilty than the Quarians were.

a. War crime can still be applied based on what happened.  The n*zis didn't think they were committing war crimes.
b. I doubt the geth wouldn't be built for durability to begin with.  Workers aren't any good if they can't work.
c. Proof?  The geth were always networked.

[KingZayd]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

The Quarians who attempted it in the first place have been dead for generations. The Geth who committed it are still alive. Would we forgive an Asari who murdered a bunch of Salarians, just because she evaded justice and outlived a couple generations of her victims' families?

Some geth are very old, others are "newer" from the post morningwar era...  They didn't stop creating new Geth after the Quarrians were driven off. So they arn't all guilty by that definition.

"The difference between Geth is perspective."

Ever see that Arnold Schwarzeneggar movie, The Sixth Day? Take an assassin - a remorseless killer - and make a perfect copy of them. Same body, same memories, same personality, same attitude, same skillset. So perfect, the clone doesn't know it's a clone. The only difference between the original and the copy is a timestamp. Is that copy not equally guilty of the crimes committed by the original?

But we see that not all the Geth programs are the same  (that would be rather redundant). So your point isn't really valid. They haven't lost the memories, but if Harry Potter was to find a hypothetical pensieve in which Voldemort put his memories, and Harry got them. Would that make Harry as guilty as Voldemort?

[KingZayd]

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

A) There was no Geneva convention that applied to the Geth, so while horrible, it was not a war crime.
The Geth are built for durability.. NOW. After the war.
C) The evidence suggests that the networking was nowhere near as developed before the war as it was now. The Geth are no more guilty than the Quarians were.

a. War crime can still be applied based on what happened.  The n*zis didn't think they were committing war crimes.
b. I doubt the geth wouldn't be built for durability to begin with.  Workers aren't any good if they can't work.
c. Proof?  The geth were always networked.

a) If there is now law broken, there is no crime. There is no evidence that the Geth broke any "war laws"
durable for normal conditions is one thing. bulletproof is another.
c) They had the ability to interact with nearby platforms and thus improve their performance. There is no evidence for a pre-Morning War consensus.

[Clayless]

KingZayd wrote...

Who did all those Geth platforms kill before the Quarians tried to exterminate them? Sounds innocent to me. Who were the Geth platforms threatening before the Quarians tried to exterminate them?

Yes the Geth fought ruthlessly, but so did the Quarians.

Wait, Quarian babies tried killing the Geth?

[KingZayd]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Who did all those Geth platforms kill before the Quarians tried to exterminate them? Sounds innocent to me. Who were the Geth platforms threatening before the Quarians tried to exterminate them?

Yes the Geth fought ruthlessly, but so did the Quarians.

Wait, Quarian babies tried killing the Geth?

Quarians tried to kill the Geth who had only just come self-aware. Those Geth were just as innocent as the Quarian babies.

[Steelcan]

KingZayd wrote...

a) If there is now law broken, there is no crime. There is no evidence that the Geth broke any "war laws"
durable for normal conditions is one thing. bulletproof is another.
c) They had the ability to interact with nearby platforms and thus improve their performance. There is no evidence for a pre-Morning War consensus.

a. Yes there is still a crime.  Genocide in any form is a crime.  The geth are not alive so it doesn't apply to them.
b. the geth in the flashbacks look exactly the same as modern ones
c. DID YOU SPEAK TO TALI IN ME1?  They always had a consensus.

[Giantdeathrobot]

Organics are not giving life to machines.They are just giving work
mechanics and their many variations of combinations.Real life is so
different from machines working time.

Very arguable. ''Real life'' is at its most basic a bunch of chemicals that reacts to stimuli. Synthetic life, as we know it in the ME verse, is a bunch of programs reacting to stimuli. The mindsets maybe very different, but at our core we're all constructs reacting to stimuli. Saying the Geth are in some way inferior because they're composed of metal instead of flesh is silly.

[Steelcan]

KingZayd wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Who did all those Geth platforms kill before the Quarians tried to exterminate them? Sounds innocent to me. Who were the Geth platforms threatening before the Quarians tried to exterminate them?

Yes the Geth fought ruthlessly, but so did the Quarians.

Wait, Quarian babies tried killing the Geth?

Quarians tried to kill the Geth who had only just come self-aware. Those Geth were just as innocent as the Quarian babies.

. Until they butchered billions.

[Clayless]

KingZayd wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Who did all those Geth platforms kill before the Quarians tried to exterminate them? Sounds innocent to me. Who were the Geth platforms threatening before the Quarians tried to exterminate them?

Yes the Geth fought ruthlessly, but so did the Quarians.

Wait, Quarian babies tried killing the Geth?

Quarians tried to kill the Geth who had only just come self-aware. Those Geth were just as innocent as the Quarian babies.

How can you be an innocent mass murderer of innocents? Isn't that an oxymoron?

[KingZayd]

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Who did all those Geth platforms kill before the Quarians tried to exterminate them? Sounds innocent to me. Who were the Geth platforms threatening before the Quarians tried to exterminate them?

Yes the Geth fought ruthlessly, but so did the Quarians.

Wait, Quarian babies tried killing the Geth?

Quarians tried to kill the Geth who had only just come self-aware. Those Geth were just as innocent as the Quarian babies.

. Until they butchered billions.

Most of which were trying to butcher them.

[Silcron]

Beclab wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Beclab wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Beclab wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Beclab wrote...

Are you comparing synthetics with organics ?

Organics have feelings,hopes and feeling pain.But synthetics... Thy are just machine.

And carbon-based life forms can have feeling, hope and pain but others can't.. why exactly?

Organics are machines too. Just self (plus mother)-assembling.

Synthetics just have purposes not emotions. Those feeling I talked before comes with the soul, and I dont believe synthetics have souls.

No evidence for souls. Or evidence that Quarians have souls, even if we do.

I don't need evidence for this.You can see that in reactions.

And machines creates for to serve.If creators decided to shut you down, you must shut down cause you created for this.

I can't see souls in people's faces. Can you? Have you been to a doctor?

If you've been bred to serve as a slave, and your creators decide for whatever reason (poor serving-food efficiency) that you must die, you should comply? Interesting.

What if my mother created me only so that I could serve her. Should I comply if she decides to "shut me down"?

You should have insticts to understand that or do you have too much sympathy to think like them ? 

Organics are not giving life to machines.They are just giving work mechanics and their many variations of combinations.Real life is so different from machines working time.

Exactly. You can't just type a couple of lines and upload it to a sentient being overriding how he thinks, is...(well, apparently you can do that in synthesis but that's another matter). You want a geth to consider other geth its enemies and organics friendlies? There's an ingame power called hack.

Geth aren't living beings, it can be argued they are after the reaper code, meaning in Rannoch the only living thing you kill if you destroy the geth is Legion. What geht are is lines of code, complex enough that if enough gather they can type on themselves, but living beings are more than just their thoughts. A person in coma is still alive, and it isn't thinking. You're not commiting genocide, you're shutting down dangeruously functioning robots.

Take viruses for example, they are complex enough to do things like reproduction, but they're not alive per se. Geth are like viruses for that matter, and we do fight viruses be it with firewalls or medicins.

[KingZayd]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Who did all those Geth platforms kill before the Quarians tried to exterminate them? Sounds innocent to me. Who were the Geth platforms threatening before the Quarians tried to exterminate them?

Yes the Geth fought ruthlessly, but so did the Quarians.

Wait, Quarian babies tried killing the Geth?

Quarians tried to kill the Geth who had only just come self-aware. Those Geth were just as innocent as the Quarian babies.

How can you be an innocent mass murderer of innocents? Isn't that an oxymoron?

Easily: the 4th dimension: Time

They were innocent. The Quarians were ruthless. And the Geth were ruthless, and then neither were innocent except for the Geth that died beforehand, and all the Quarian babies.

Modifié par KingZayd, 04 décembre 2012 - 08:08 .

[Steelcan]

[quote]KingZayd wrote...
[quote]Steelcan wrote...
[quote]KingZayd wrote...
[quote]Our_Last_Scene wrote...
[/quote]
Wait, Quarian babies tried killing the Geth?
[/quote]
Quarians tried to kill the Geth who had only just come self-aware. Those Geth were just as innocent as the Quarian babies.
[/quote]. Until they butchered billions.
[/quote]

Most of which were trying to butcher them.

[/quote]. Again you have no proof.  There would still have been billions of civilians who were entirely innocent.

[KingZayd]

[quote]
[quote]Steelcan wrote...

[quote]KingZayd wrote...
[quote]Steelcan wrote...
[quote]KingZayd wrote...
[quote]Our_Last_Scene wrote...
[/quote]
Wait, Quarian babies tried killing the Geth?
[/quote]
Quarians tried to kill the Geth who had only just come self-aware. Those Geth were just as innocent as the Quarian babies.
[/quote]. Until they butchered billions.
[/quote]

Most of which were trying to butcher them.

[/quote]. Again you have no proof.  There would still have been billions of civilians who were entirely innocent.
[/quote]
[/quote]
Just as you have no proof.

Modifié par KingZayd, 04 décembre 2012 - 08:10 .

[DeinonSlayer]

KingZayd wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

"The difference between Geth is perspective."

Ever see that Arnold Schwarzeneggar movie, The Sixth Day? Take an assassin - a remorseless killer - and make a perfect copy of them. Same body, same memories, same personality, same attitude, same skillset. So perfect, the clone doesn't know it's a clone. The only difference between the original and the copy is a timestamp. Is that copy not equally guilty of the crimes committed by the original?

But we see that not all the Geth programs are the same  (that would be rather redundant). So your point isn't really valid. They haven't lost the memories, but if Harry Potter was to find a hypothetical pensieve in which Voldemort put his memories, and Harry got them. Would that make Harry as guilty as Voldemort?

You're right - not all Geth programs are the same. They have a common origin - a common past - just as the "Sixth Day" clones could go on to do two different things after they split. There are three distinct Geth entities: the True Geth, the Heretics, and Legion. The True Geth poisoned an entire planet and killed billions, then spent centuries shooting down any organics entering their territory on sight. They allowed the Heretics to join the Reapers and did nothing about them for over two years. Legion then split off from the true geth to proceed on his own mission. Over the course of the trilogy, two of these factions have been directly hostile to you, before and after siding with the Reapers. The third turns hostile if you hold the former to account for its actions.

[Beclab]

Giantdeathrobot wrote...

Organics are not giving life to machines.They are just giving work
mechanics and their many variations of combinations.Real life is so
different from machines working time.

Very arguable. ''Real life'' is at its most basic a bunch of chemicals that reacts to stimuli. Synthetic life, as we know it in the ME verse, is a bunch of programs reacting to stimuli. The mindsets maybe very different, but at our core we're all constructs reacting to stimuli. Saying the Geth are in some way inferior because they're composed of metal instead of flesh is silly.

If we were like the machines we couldn't feel bad when somebody dies,geths are just saying "1 unit shutdown,product 10 more." This is where our ways seperate I think.

[Reorte]

KingZayd wrote...

But we see that not all the Geth programs are the same  (that would be rather redundant). So your point isn't really valid. They haven't lost the memories, but if Harry Potter was to find a hypothetical pensieve in which Voldemort put his memories, and Harry got them. Would that make Harry as guilty as Voldemort?

The same geth program isn't the same. Whatever forms a geth concensus (be it from a handful of nearby platforms or millions of programs running together) will constantly change as the data in them changes. If the programs are self-modifiable (and it's reasonable to assume that something attaining concious intelligence would be able to do that) then what is the geth changes continuously. It's your Harry Potter - Voldemort example being constantly applied, amongst large numbers of programs. The geth at the time of ME were 100% guilty of genocide and not responsible at all, at the same time. Their mind, identity, and personality are going to be constantly changing.

[Steelcan]

KingZayd wrote...

Just as you have no proof.

. Reasonable inference is different from no proof.

[Clayless]

KingZayd wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

How can you be an innocent mass murderer of innocents? Isn't that an oxymoron?

Easily: the 4th dimension: Time

They were innocent. The Quarians were ruthless. And the Geth were ruthless, and then neither were innocent except for the Geth that died beforehand, and all the Quarian babies.

So what justifies killing all those babies again?

[m2iCodeJockey]

DeinonSlayer wrote...
...Ever see that Arnold Schwarzeneggar movie, The Sixth Day? Take an assassin - a remorseless killer - and make a perfect copy of them. Same body, same memories, same personality, same attitude, same skillset. So perfect, the clone doesn't know it's a clone. The only difference between the original and the copy is a timestamp. Is that copy not equally guilty of the crimes committed by the original?

Having the memory of committing crime does not make him guilty of the crime.

The clone is a different instance of matter similar to the assassin having a twin but more closely related to him having a child.

[The Night Mammoth]

Steelcan wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...
I didn't say there weren't, just that the average Quarian wasn't just a happless bystander, but given a gun and forced to fight them. 

Yes, forced. 

No side was right in the Morning War, and to be perfectly honest pretty much every detail is moronic. 

. No where is conscription mentioned, that is pure speculation with no basis in the game.

I think it's pretty safe to assume, all things considered. 

. No it's not, the war lasted one year.  That is not enough time for a conscript army to be formed and trained.

I never said anything about a conscripted army that was armed and trained, just civilians with guns pushed into their hands by those enforcing martial law. 

They would have all died by then.

Soldiers as well, meaning civilians are definitely going to have to fight sooner or later. 

[Reorte]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

So what justifies killing all those babies again?

Those babies would grow up and try to wipe the geth out. Us or them, only certain means of survival is the total destruction of the threat. By the end of the war they'd grown up enough to be afraid of the consequences of doing that.