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[Steelcan]

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...
...Ever see that Arnold Schwarzeneggar movie, The Sixth Day? Take an assassin - a remorseless killer - and make a perfect copy of them. Same body, same memories, same personality, same attitude, same skillset. So perfect, the clone doesn't know it's a clone. The only difference between the original and the copy is a timestamp. Is that copy not equally guilty of the crimes committed by the original?

Having the memory of committing crime does not make him guilty of the crime.

The clone is a different instance of matter similar to the assassin having a twin but more closely related to him having a child.

. The clone thinks he did committ those acts though.

[Giantdeathrobot]

Exactly. You can't just type a couple of lines and upload it to a sentient being overriding how he thinks, is...(well, apparently you can do that in synthesis but that's another matter). You want a geth to consider other geth its enemies and organics friendlies? There's an ingame power called hack.

Geth aren't living beings, it can be argued they are after the reaper code, meaning in Rannoch the only living thing you kill if you destroy the geth is Legion. What geht are is lines of code, complex enough that if enough gather they can type on themselves, but living beings are more than just their thoughts. A person in coma is still alive, and it isn't thinking. You're not commiting genocide, you're shutting down dangeruously functioning robots.

Take viruses for example, they are complex enough to do things like reproduction, but they're not alive per se. Geth are like viruses for that matter, and we do fight viruses be it with firewalls or medicins.

Nor can you put an autority figure beside a Geth and make it deliver shocks powerful enough to kill a person sitting in front of them willingly. It took a few madmen and the right conditions to push an entire continent into a spiral of violence and madness that pretty much only ended when one side was broken beyond belief (souds familiar?). The means may be more subtle, but organics are not above influence, far from it. We're all constructs reacting to stimuli, and few things more.

[TheImmortalBeaver]

Neither side is even close to being morally correct. The Geth would initially seem like the better side (due to the factor of self-defense), but ruthless murder of non-combatants is obviously wrong. However, so is trying to wipe out an entire species just because they might start thinking for themselves. Because of this, taking a strong stance for either side seems dogmatic at best.

[KingZayd]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

"The difference between Geth is perspective."

Ever see that Arnold Schwarzeneggar movie, The Sixth Day? Take an assassin - a remorseless killer - and make a perfect copy of them. Same body, same memories, same personality, same attitude, same skillset. So perfect, the clone doesn't know it's a clone. The only difference between the original and the copy is a timestamp. Is that copy not equally guilty of the crimes committed by the original?

But we see that not all the Geth programs are the same  (that would be rather redundant). So your point isn't really valid. They haven't lost the memories, but if Harry Potter was to find a hypothetical pensieve in which Voldemort put his memories, and Harry got them. Would that make Harry as guilty as Voldemort?

You're right - not all Geth programs are the same. They have a common origin - a common past - just as the "Sixth Day" clones could go on to do two different things after they split. There are three distinct Geth entities: the True Geth, the Heretics, and Legion. The True Geth poisoned an entire planet and killed billions, then spent centuries shooting down any organics entering their territory on sight. They allowed the Heretics to join the Reapers and did nothing about them for over two years. Legion then split off from the true geth to proceed on his own mission. Over the course of the trilogy, two of these factions have been directly hostile to you, before and after siding with the Reapers. The third turns hostile if you hold the former to account for its actions.

All the Geth who survived, fought ruthlessly against the Quarians who were ruthlessly trying to slaughter them.

That group split into the "heretics" and the "true". Why would the "true" have any reason to fight against the "heretics"? The only organics that ever sided with them, were killed by their own people. They didn't want to purge the galaxy of organics, or to serve "The old machine", but they didn't owe anything to Organics either. Selfish, but it's not like the rest of the galaxy would do anything to protect them either, is it?

Later on, the "true" joined with the Reapers to protect themselves. Selfish, yes. But understandable. Again, they were in danger of extinction, and even if they had asked for it, the organics of the galaxy would not helped them (with the exception of me, If I had control of Shepard). Yes it means they're joining the guys who would wipe out the rest of the Organics, but why would the Geth die to protect a galaxy that doesn't have a place for them in it?

While I understand why people would hold the events of the last paragraph against the Geth. I don't see how anyone could possibly expect Legion to roll over and allow his people to be exterminated. Nobody should be standing by and allow their race to be exterminated, not even by Shepard.

[Clayless]

Reorte wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

So what justifies killing all those babies again?

Those babies would grow up and try to wipe the geth out. Us or them, only certain means of survival is the total destruction of the threat. By the end of the war they'd grown up enough to be afraid of the consequences of doing that.

So the only way to end wars is to slaughter innocents that have no way of defending themselves, and are no threat to you, on the chance that they might become a threat is about 2 decades?

That justifies killing all those babies?

[Steelcan]

I'm done with this.

[DeinonSlayer]

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...
...Ever see that Arnold Schwarzeneggar movie, The Sixth Day? Take an assassin - a remorseless killer - and make a perfect copy of them. Same body, same memories, same personality, same attitude, same skillset. So perfect, the clone doesn't know it's a clone. The only difference between the original and the copy is a timestamp. Is that copy not equally guilty of the crimes committed by the original?

Having the memory of committing crime does not make him guilty of the crime.

The clone is a different instance of matter similar to the assassin having a twin but more closely related to him having a child.

So if the Beltway Sniper were copied in this fashion, we ought to put one in the electric chair and let the other wander freely into a gun shop? Well, then, I guess we should just be sure which is which before we throw the switch. <_<

[KingZayd]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

How can you be an innocent mass murderer of innocents? Isn't that an oxymoron?

Easily: the 4th dimension: Time

They were innocent. The Quarians were ruthless. And the Geth were ruthless, and then neither were innocent except for the Geth that died beforehand, and all the Quarian babies.

So what justifies killing all those babies again?

What justifies with trying to  kill all those innocent Geth to begin with again?

[estebanus]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Pantanplan wrote...

I choose peace everytime in Rannoch, and I like Legion's character, but you can't deny the fact that the geth slaughtered billions of innocents. They are presented as innocent and looking for guidance, and that the quarians are 100% responsible, but really, only 17 million quarians were left after the Morning War. Nothing, and I repeat, nothing justifies such slaughter. To all of you who support the geth and Legion's version of their history: how are the geth innocent and lost children, while the quarians the aggressive instigators who deserve genocide?

if you put it this way, the allied forces should have bombarded germany and all its inhabitants after ww2.

we did horrable things ... why are we still here? why did we get another chance?


maybe, just because the killing has to stop at some point.

The difference being that had the allies not made the marshall plan and would've either simply killed all germans (Of which many were just indoctrinated, not actively a part in the war) and marched out of Germany back to the US, France and Britain, the soviet union could've easily run over the rest of Europe and essentially conquer the entire continent, leaving the US alone and isolated against an enemy that's facing them from both west and east.

[KingZayd]

Steelcan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Just as you have no proof.

. Reasonable inference is different from no proof.

inference from what? From nothing. Therefore not reasonable.

[sweet-d]

haha This why I killed the Geth when I couldn't make peace. The only reason to save them is the geth did horrible things but they were needed to win the war. Too bad I couldn't make peace because it was a pretty easy decision for me to chose the quarians over the geth.

[Zeroth Angel]

If anything that makes me want to choose them even more if I ever did another ME3 playthrough.
I mean slaughtering 99.83% proves that the Geth can be incredibly useful.
Then again I can't stand Quarians.

[Giantdeathrobot]

Beclab wrote...

Giantdeathrobot wrote...

Organics are not giving life to machines.They are just giving work
mechanics and their many variations of combinations.Real life is so
different from machines working time.

Very arguable. ''Real life'' is at its most basic a bunch of chemicals that reacts to stimuli. Synthetic life, as we know it in the ME verse, is a bunch of programs reacting to stimuli. The mindsets maybe very different, but at our core we're all constructs reacting to stimuli. Saying the Geth are in some way inferior because they're composed of metal instead of flesh is silly.

If we were like the machines we couldn't feel bad when somebody dies,geths are just saying "1 unit shutdown,product 10 more." This is where our ways seperate I think.

But there were humans who thought like that. You think war leaders (especially the more ruthless ones, during the more ruthless wars) think of their soldiers in terms of individuals? They're divisions. Trainloads. Armored squadrons. We lost one? Tough luck, we've got many others. Have at them.

Empathy does happen, of course, you mourn those close to you. But unless you're an extremely empathic person, when you see that some chump dies in far away Syria, do you care? I mean, really care? Are you moved by his loss? I won't assume, but methinks you don't.

The Geth also show they have empathy. The Geth Prime says that they mourn Legion's loss. Before that, Legion claims that they ''honor the sacrifice'' of the Quarians who sided with them. They don't express it by crying, of course, different mindset and all, but I imagine they are capabble of empathy, if not in the same form as we humans do.

[Kel Riever]

I'm looking over my game and with all those annihilated geth, all I can think of is:

Nice job, Shep. Trollin' Legion.

[KingZayd]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...
...Ever see that Arnold Schwarzeneggar movie, The Sixth Day? Take an assassin - a remorseless killer - and make a perfect copy of them. Same body, same memories, same personality, same attitude, same skillset. So perfect, the clone doesn't know it's a clone. The only difference between the original and the copy is a timestamp. Is that copy not equally guilty of the crimes committed by the original?

Having the memory of committing crime does not make him guilty of the crime.

The clone is a different instance of matter similar to the assassin having a twin but more closely related to him having a child.

So if the Beltway Sniper were copied in this fashion, we ought to put one in the electric chair and let the other wander freely into a gun shop? Well, then, I guess we should just be sure which is which before we throw the switch. <_<

A better, more obvious way to defeat that would have been to bring up quantum teleportation.

Destroy one copy, to produce another identical one.

[Clayless]

KingZayd wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

So what justifies killing all those babies again?

What justifies with trying to  kill all those innocent Geth to begin with again?

The fact those babies never tried to kill those innocent Geth.

So what justifies killing them again?

[KingZayd]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

So what justifies killing all those babies again?

What justifies with trying to  kill all those innocent Geth to begin with again?

The fact those babies never tried to kill those innocent Geth.

So what justifies killing them again?

That fact doesn't justify the attempt to kill all those innocent Geth to begin with. As at that point those innocent Geth never tried to kill those babies either.

Try again?

Modifié par KingZayd, 04 décembre 2012 - 08:29 .

[DeinonSlayer]

Giantdeathrobot wrote...

The Geth also show they have empathy. The Geth Prime says that they mourn Legion's loss. Before that, Legion claims that they ''honor the sacrifice'' of the Quarians who sided with them. They don't express it by crying, of course, different mindset and all, but I imagine they are capabble of empathy, if not in the same form as we humans do.

Wrong. Legion does - Geth did not until he came along, and do not if he doesn't bring his perspective back to them. The Geth VI represents the mindset of the Geth for the last three centuries - it doesn't even acknowledge the Quarians who died defending Geth in their footage.

[Clayless]

KingZayd wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

The fact those babies never tried to kill those innocent Geth.

So what justifies killing them again?

That fact doesn't justify the attempt to kill all those innocent Geth to begin with. As at that point those innocent Geth never tried to kill those babies either.

Try again?

Wait did you just try to say the Geth at one point never killed babies, so that justifies killing them later, and therefore my point is moot?

What?

[KingZayd]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

The fact those babies never tried to kill those innocent Geth.

So what justifies killing them again?

That fact doesn't justify the attempt to kill all those innocent Geth to begin with. As at that point those innocent Geth never tried to kill those babies either.

Try again?

Wait did you just try to say the Geth at one point never killed babies, so that justifies killing them later, and therefore my point is moot?

What?

No. Can you read? I never gave a justification for what the Geth did. I merely stated that there was also no justification for what the Quarians tried to do. The only differences are that  the Quarians tried first and failed.

[o Ventus]

1. The quarians killed a very high number of quarians as well. It pisses me off when people just assume that the geth were the only other force.

2. Where in the hell did 99.83% come from?

[Clayless]

KingZayd wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Wait did you just try to say the Geth at one point never killed babies, so that justifies killing them later, and therefore my point is moot?

What?

No. Can you read? I never gave a justification for what the Geth did. I merely stated that there was also no justification for what the Quarians tried to do. The only differences are that  the Quarians tried first and failed.

When did those babies try to kill the Geth?

[xAmilli0n]

o Ventus wrote...

1. The quarians killed a very high number of quarians as well. It pisses me off when people just assume that the geth were the only other force.

2. Where in the hell did 99.83% come from?

Answering number 2.  There were billions before the war (Quarians), 17 million after the war.

[KingZayd]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Wait did you just try to say the Geth at one point never killed babies, so that justifies killing them later, and therefore my point is moot?

What?

No. Can you read? I never gave a justification for what the Geth did. I merely stated that there was also no justification for what the Quarians tried to do. The only differences are that  the Quarians tried first and failed.

When did those babies try to kill the Geth?

When did the Geth try to kill those babies before the Morning War?

Modifié par KingZayd, 04 décembre 2012 - 08:36 .

[Reorte]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Reorte wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

So what justifies killing all those babies again?

Those babies would grow up and try to wipe the geth out. Us or them, only certain means of survival is the total destruction of the threat. By the end of the war they'd grown up enough to be afraid of the consequences of doing that.

So the only way to end wars is to slaughter innocents that have no way of defending themselves, and are no threat to you, on the chance that they might become a threat is about 2 decades?

That justifies killing all those babies?

If you want to be totally sure, yes. Unjustifiable but not illogical.