1059 réponses à ce sujet

[Clayless]

KingZayd wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

When did those babies try to kill the Geth?

When did the Geth try to kill those babies before the Morning War?

So because they never killed them at one point that justifies killing them later?

[KingZayd]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

When did those babies try to kill the Geth?

When did the Geth try to kill those babies before the Morning War?

So because they never killed them at one point that justifies killing them later?

No. Again I ask, can you read? I clearly said there wasn't a justification for the killing of the babies. There also isn't a justification for the Quarians having tried to kill all those innocent Geth.
Like I said. The only differences are that the Quarians tried first, and that they failed.

Modifié par KingZayd, 04 décembre 2012 - 08:42 .

[Reorte]

KingZayd wrote...

No. Again I ask, can you read? I clearly said there wasn't a justification for the killing of the babies. There also isn't a justification for the Quarians having tried to kill all those innocent Geth.
Like I said. The only differences are that the Quarians tried first, and that they failed to do so.

If Tali is being honest then the quarians were (probably deliberately, although perhaps unconciously so) believing that the geth hadn't really advanced as far as true intelligence and self-awareness and wanted to stop them before they got to the stage where it would be a crime. Sounds like there's a large dose of ignoring the facts and going with what you would like to be true there, something plenty of humans have done often enough.

[o Ventus]

xAmilli0n wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

1. The quarians killed a very high number of quarians as well. It pisses me off when people just assume that the geth were the only other force.

2. Where in the hell did 99.83% come from?

Answering number 2.  There were billions before the war (Quarians), 17 million after the war.

Which is based on a population of...? Aside from "billions", there's never any indication of a general populace. Is it 10 billion? 100 billion? Any percentage thrown out is arbitrary a best.

[xAmilli0n]

@KingZayd, but can you have innocent Geth if they are all in consensus? Obviously I'm talking about after they decided to fight back.

[Deathsaurer]

The point to the Morning War is that ruthless calculus sucks, both sides used it and the results are horrible. This attitude is likely the reasoning the Catalyst uses for continuing the cycle, life always makes the same mistakes and repeats the same patterns so harvest them before they destroy one another.

[Clayless]

KingZayd wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

So because they never killed them at one point that justifies killing them later?

No. Again I ask, can you read? I clearly said there wasn't a justification for the killing of the babies. There also isn't a justification for the Quarians having tried to kill all those innocent Geth.
Like I said. The only differences are that the Quarians tried first, and that they failed to do so.

So there is no justification for what the Geth did.

People try to vilify the Quarian's when the Geth have performed evils that can't be justified.

[Giantdeathrobot]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Giantdeathrobot wrote...

The Geth also show they have empathy. The Geth Prime says that they mourn Legion's loss. Before that, Legion claims that they ''honor the sacrifice'' of the Quarians who sided with them. They don't express it by crying, of course, different mindset and all, but I imagine they are capabble of empathy, if not in the same form as we humans do.

Wrong. Legion does - Geth did not until he came along, and do not if he doesn't bring his perspective back to them. The Geth VI represents the mindset of the Geth for the last three centuries - it doesn't even acknowledge the Quarians who died defending Geth in their footage.

Legion IS the Geth. His experience with organics make him less cold to Shepard and more likely to acknolwdge the help of these Quarians. That's the very definition of empathy.

[Cyrax86]

o Ventus wrote...

1. The quarians killed a very high number of quarians as well. It pisses me off when people just assume that the geth were the only other force.

2. Where in the hell did 99.83% come from?

 
1. Quarians did not kill billions of their own species. 
2. Tali mentions in ME1 the Geth killed billions of Quarians, if you look at the migrant fleet info it says their population is 17 million

[DeinonSlayer]

o Ventus wrote...

1. The quarians killed a very high number of quarians as well. It pisses me off when people just assume that the geth were the only other force.

2. Where in the hell did 99.83% come from?

We see one person killed in the footage - conceding that the footage is even real to begin with. "Very high" is a guess. We can't really say how many there were.

We know "billions," plural, were killed. Assuming a minimum population of two billion, divided into seventeen million survivors, yields a 99.15% death rate, but it was likely higher. Not sure where the 99.83% figure comes from.

In any case, it's worth noting that an editorial heard in the Spectre office after Thessia describes the Morning War as an "unthinkable slaughter." The Geth used chemical warfare and did not discriminate targets. From the mental perspective of a collective entity, one "collective" against another, it was self-defense. From the organic perspective of individuals, it was anything but.

[KingZayd]

Reorte wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

No. Again I ask, can you read? I clearly said there wasn't a justification for the killing of the babies. There also isn't a justification for the Quarians having tried to kill all those innocent Geth.
Like I said. The only differences are that the Quarians tried first, and that they failed to do so.

If Tali is being honest then the quarians were (probably deliberately, although perhaps unconciously so) believing that the geth hadn't really advanced as far as true intelligence and self-awareness and wanted to stop them before they got to the stage where it would be a crime. Sounds like there's a large dose of ignoring the facts and going with what you would like to be true there, something plenty of humans have done often enough.

True. Which is why I don't think either side is "evil". 

But also on the other hand, how self-aware are babies? They're definitely intelligent as demonstrated by their immense learning capabilities, and will certainly go on to become very self-aware.

[xAmilli0n]

o Ventus wrote...

xAmilli0n wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

1. The quarians killed a very high number of quarians as well. It pisses me off when people just assume that the geth were the only other force.

2. Where in the hell did 99.83% come from?

Answering number 2.  There were billions before the war (Quarians), 17 million after the war.

Which is based on a population of...? Aside from "billions", there's never any indication of a general populace. Is it 10 billion? 100 billion? Any percentage thrown out is arbitrary a best.

ME1 Tali says the Geth killed billions.  Morning war codex says 17 million survived.  Even if there were only 1 billion Quarians, the percentage killed is HUGE.

[Big I]

o Ventus wrote...

xAmilli0n wrote...

o Ventus wrote...
1. The quarians killed a very high number of quarians as well. It pisses me off when people just assume that the geth were the only other force.

2. Where in the hell did 99.83% come from?

Answering number 2.  There were billions before the war (Quarians), 17 million after the war.

Which is based on a population of...? Aside from "billions", there's never any indication of a general populace. Is it 10 billion? 100 billion? Any percentage thrown out is arbitrary a best.

Also, Rannoch's an arid rock, it's unlikely to be able to easily support as many as Earth in ME (about 11 and a half billion). Most Council homeworlds only have a few billion.

[KingZayd]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

So because they never killed them at one point that justifies killing them later?

No. Again I ask, can you read? I clearly said there wasn't a justification for the killing of the babies. There also isn't a justification for the Quarians having tried to kill all those innocent Geth.
Like I said. The only differences are that the Quarians tried first, and that they failed to do so.

So there is no justification for what the Geth did.

People try to vilify the Quarian's when the Geth have performed evils that can't be justified.

So there is no justification for what the Quarians did.

People try to vilify the Geth when the Quarians have performed evils that can't be justified. 

[Taboo]

Legion states that their actions were harsh and that they were indeed excessive.

Turns out they're just as bad.

[Giantdeathrobot]

At this point it's numbers. Many quarians were killed, and it WAS a slaughter, and THAT should not be forgotten. Whenever one or ten billions were killed, it's mathematic. A statistic.

[DeinonSlayer]

Giantdeathrobot wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Giantdeathrobot wrote...

The Geth also show they have empathy. The Geth Prime says that they mourn Legion's loss. Before that, Legion claims that they ''honor the sacrifice'' of the Quarians who sided with them. They don't express it by crying, of course, different mindset and all, but I imagine they are capabble of empathy, if not in the same form as we humans do.

Wrong. Legion does - Geth did not until he came along, and do not if he doesn't bring his perspective back to them. The Geth VI represents the mindset of the Geth for the last three centuries - it doesn't even acknowledge the Quarians who died defending Geth in their footage.

Legion IS the Geth. His experience with organics make him less cold to Shepard and more likely to acknolwdge the help of these Quarians. That's the very definition of empathy.

Legion's perspective represents a two-year sojourn during which 1183 Geth learned the value of organic life. The Geth VI represents an entity that spent three centuries before that killing any organic that came near it on sight. Without Legion's perspective, they're a very different animal.

Dorn'Hazt dies opposing the war regardless of whether Tali survives.

[m2iCodeJockey]

Steelcan wrote...

m2iCodeJockey wrote...
Having the memory of committing crime does not make him guilty of the crime.
The clone is a different instance of matter similar to the assassin having a twin but more closely related to him having a child.

. The clone thinks he did committ those acts though.

What he believes is not the same as what is true.
He is not the same person. He is, in fact, a newborn person.

DeinonSlayer wrote...
So if the Beltway Sniper were copied in this fashion, we ought to put one in the electric chair and let the other wander freely into a gun shop? Well, then, I guess we should just be sure which is which before we throw the switch.

He's not old enough to buy a gun and he is also not yet a criminal...

[Xellith]

ForThessia wrote...

The Geth are not innocent in the slightest and I kill them every time on Rannoch. You don't come that close to killing off an entire people and get to play the victim card. That and their constant aligning with reapers made the choice very simple for me.

So the quarians try to wipe out the geth and fail.  But when the geth retaliate yet stop and let the aggressors go then they deserve to die?

I mean really.  The geth are sentient.  They are being attacked.  They retaliate until the aggressors back down and leave the conflict.  So yes they do get to play the victim card.  They were envisioned as tools.  But they became more than that.  The quarians didnt want their slaves being loose and fought to keep control - even going as far as to attack those who stood up for the geth.  Dont forget that the geth were in their infancy back then.  All this was new and their intellegence hadnt developed.

Dont forget that their "constant" aligning with the reapers wasnt "constant".  It was one part of the geth.  Sovvy went to the geth and most refused.  A portion did align with sovvy.  Those are analogous to Cerberus.  Do all humans deserve to die because of cerberus?  Do all geth deserve to die because of the Heretics?    The true geth refused the reapers.  The Reapers even asked the geth in ME3 to go to war against organics with them.  They refused.  

Only when faced with EXTINCTION by the quarian fleet - the descendants of the quarians the geth LET live during the morning war - did the geth go as far as to align themselves with the reapers.  Not out of malice for organics.  But to survive.

Your entire post reeks of ignorance.

Modifié par Xellith, 04 décembre 2012 - 08:56 .

[KingZayd]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Legion states that their actions were harsh and that they were indeed excessive.

Turns out they're just as bad.

They were both just as ruthless as each other. They just weren't equally successful.

I do blame on the Quarians for initiating the conflict both times though, which is why if FORCED to pick one, then I'll pick the Geth.

[DeinonSlayer]

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

m2iCodeJockey wrote...
Having the memory of committing crime does not make him guilty of the crime.
The clone is a different instance of matter similar to the assassin having a twin but more closely related to him having a child.

. The clone thinks he did committ those acts though.

What he believes is not the same as what is true.
He is not the same person. He is, in fact, a newborn person.

DeinonSlayer wrote...
So if the Beltway Sniper were copied in this fashion, we ought to put one in the electric chair and let the other wander freely into a gun shop? Well, then, I guess we should just be sure which is which before we throw the switch.

He's not old enough to buy a gun and he is also not yet a criminal...

Watch the movie. The clone takes her earrings, her ID and her gun off the cold body of the original and goes straight back to work. One clone takes the clothes off the dying original's back.

[KingZayd]

xAmilli0n wrote...

@KingZayd, but can you have innocent Geth if they are all in consensus? Obviously I'm talking about after they decided to fight back.

Did the consensus exist as it does now back then? I believe the networking ability was nowhere near as sophisticated at the start. This is shown by the individualistic nature of the platforms before and at the beginning of the war. Back then, Geth could only interact with nearby platforms to improve performance.

I believe the consensus only formed later during the war, or soon afterwards.

Modifié par KingZayd, 04 décembre 2012 - 09:03 .

[o Ventus]

Cyrax86 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

1. The quarians killed a very high number of quarians as well. It pisses me off when people just assume that the geth were the only other force.

2. Where in the hell did 99.83% come from?

 
1. Quarians did not kill billions of their own species. 
2. Tali mentions in ME1 the Geth killed billions of Quarians, if you look at the migrant fleet info it says their population is 17 million

 I never said the quarians killed billions of their own people, only that they did. You made that one up.

[Ranger Jack Walker]

Sso what do you do with an aggressor that refuses to back down, refuses to surrender and never stops trying to kill you?

Surrender and let them kill you?

[o Ventus]

Also, was there any fighting outside of Rannoch? Unless it happened as a result of the war, AI research was illegal at the time, and I doubt the geth have been off world before the end of the war, judging by their letting the quarians go.