1059 réponses à ce sujet

[o Ventus]

Double post

Modifié par o Ventus, 04 décembre 2012 - 09:09 .

[m2iCodeJockey]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

m2iCodeJockey wrote...
Having the memory of committing crime does not make him guilty of the crime.
The clone is a different instance of matter similar to the assassin having a twin but more closely related to him having a child.

. The clone thinks he did committ those acts though.

What he believes is not the same as what is true.
He is not the same person. He is, in fact, a newborn person.

DeinonSlayer wrote...
So if the Beltway Sniper were copied in this fashion, we ought to put one in the electric chair and let the other wander freely into a gun shop? Well, then, I guess we should just be sure which is which before we throw the switch.

He's not old enough to buy a gun and he is also not yet a criminal...

Watch the movie. The clone takes her earrings, her ID and her gun off the cold body of the original and goes straight back to work. One clone takes the clothes off the dying original's back.

The question you two are ask is closer to looking at DNA evidence to convict a twin than the nature of the film.

By current standards, we track the instance of matter, not the mind that committed the crime.
By the standards you two are proposing, an extreme extension is:
"Can a person be guilty of a crime for containing an idea?"
We don't have "thought police" but, in your hypothetical world, we would.

Modifié par m2iCodeJockey, 04 décembre 2012 - 09:13 .

[DeinonSlayer]

KingZayd wrote...

So there is no justification for what the Quarians did.

People try to vilify the Geth when the Quarians have performed evils that can't be justified. 

I ought to just keep a word document with stock responses to this, but I suspect you won't listen to anything we have to say anyway.

Example: Skynet. What would you do if a computer in charge of a nuclear arsenal started deviating from its programming in any way?

The Geth are software, capable of taking control of any hardware they can install themselves on. Picture a city like Nos Astra, with ten thousand aircars falling from the sky all at once. It isn't what the Geth were doing - it's what they were capable of doing (and what they ultimately did) that the Quarians were afraid of. Their mistake lie not in their judgement of their creations' capabilities, but of their motives.

Something else to keep in mind: AI was illegal in Council space. Outlawed by the organization that hunted the Rachni to extinction, sterilized the Krogan, and occupies and bombards Shanxi because humans tried to activate a nearby dormant Mass Relay. Forget "trade embargo." Forget "losing their embassy." The Quarians could expect Turian dreadnoughts in their skies, bombing their cities, if they didn't act.

[KingZayd]

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

m2iCodeJockey wrote...
Having the memory of committing crime does not make him guilty of the crime.
The clone is a different instance of matter similar to the assassin having a twin but more closely related to him having a child.

. The clone thinks he did committ those acts though.

What he believes is not the same as what is true.
He is not the same person. He is, in fact, a newborn person.

DeinonSlayer wrote...
So if the Beltway Sniper were copied in this fashion, we ought to put one in the electric chair and let the other wander freely into a gun shop? Well, then, I guess we should just be sure which is which before we throw the switch.

He's not old enough to buy a gun and he is also not yet a criminal...

Watch the movie. The clone takes her earrings, her ID and her gun off the cold body of the original and goes straight back to work. One clone takes the clothes off the dying original's back.

The questions you two are ask is closer looking at DNA evidence to convict a twin than the nature of the film.

By current standards, we track the instance of matter, not the mind that committed the crime.
By the standards you two are proposing, an extreme extension is:
"Can a person be guilty of a crime for containing an idea?"
We don't have "thought police" but, in your hypothetical world, we would.

Not really. The issue is who is the guilty person, not which body was involved with the murder. The two have identical personalities, therefore they are the same person. Therefore both are guilty of the murders.

[Cyrax86]

During the Morning war, Quarians simply tried to de-activate machines(not a war crime). If you want to say the Geth are innocent because they were only trying to defend themselves from the Quarians that tried to shut them down, thats ok but, that innocence is lost when you kill innocent civilians, non combatants and push a race to extinction(war crime)

[xAmilli0n]

o Ventus wrote...

Also, was there any fighting outside of Rannoch? Unless it happened as a result of the war, AI research was illegal at the time, and I doubt the geth have been off world before the end of the war, judging by their letting the quarians go.

Well the Quarians did lose their colonies, like Haestrom, so I'd say yes, the fighting was not limited to just Rannoch.  So that was either an aggressive action by the Geth, or it occured at the same time.

[DeinonSlayer]

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

Sso what do you do with an aggressor that refuses to back down, refuses to surrender and never stops trying to kill you?

Surrender and let them kill you?

How many innocents can you kill in "self-defense" before it would have been morally better to allow yourself to be destroyed? If someone is shooting at you, is it OK to defend yourself by throwing a grenade into a crowd?

Note: the above is rhetorical.

[xAmilli0n]

KingZayd wrote...

xAmilli0n wrote...

@KingZayd, but can you have innocent Geth if they are all in consensus? Obviously I'm talking about after they decided to fight back.

Did the consensus exist as it does now back then? I believe the networking ability was nowhere near as sophisticated at the start. This is shown by the individualistic nature of the platforms before and at the beginning of the war. Back then, Geth could only interact with nearby platforms to improve performance.

I believe the consensus only formed later during the war, or soon afterwards.

Interesting.  I don't know the answer either.  One thing I've been thinking about is what about the colonies (like Haestrom)?  Did they rebel at the same, or was that an aggressive action by the Geth?  The Geth consensus might play into how that occured...maybe.

[m2iCodeJockey]

KingZayd wrote...
Not really. The issue is who is the guilty person, not which body was involved with the murder. The two have identical personalities, therefore they are the same person. Therefore both are guilty of the murders.

You and your twin have the same DNA. Having the same gesticulation patterns as your twin is not a crime.
Deliberately attempting to shoot a person is a crime.

[o Ventus]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

Sso what do you do with an aggressor that refuses to back down, refuses to surrender and never stops trying to kill you?

Surrender and let them kill you?

How many innocents can you kill in "self-defense" before it would have been morally better to allow yourself to be destroyed? If someone is shooting at you, is it OK to defend yourself by throwing a grenade into a crowd?

Note: the above is rhetorical.

Are you trying to apply morality to a machine?

[KingZayd]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

So there is no justification for what the Quarians did.

People try to vilify the Geth when the Quarians have performed evils that can't be justified. 

I ought to just keep a word document with stock responses to this, but I suspect you won't listen to anything we have to say anyway.

Example: Skynet. What would you do if a computer in charge of a nuclear arsenal started deviating from its programming in any way?

The Geth are software, capable of taking control of any hardware they can install themselves on. Picture a city like Nos Astra, with ten thousand aircars falling from the sky all at once. It isn't what the Geth were doing - it's what they were capable of doing (and what they ultimately did) that the Quarians were afraid of. Their mistake lie not in their judgement of their creations' capabilities, but of their motives.

Something else to keep in mind: AI was illegal in Council space. Outlawed by the organization that hunted the Rachni to extinction, sterilized the Krogan, and occupies and bombards Shanxi because humans tried to activate a nearby dormant Mass Relay. Forget "trade embargo." Forget "losing their embassy." The Quarians could expect Turian dreadnoughts in their skies, bombing their cities, if they didn't act.

The Rachni were hunted down to extinction because the Rachni were behaving completely violently. The Krogan were sterilised because the Turians were struggling to stop them. The Shanxi event, while clearly a gross overreaction, was because of the aforementioned Rachni war which nearly crushed the Turians, and would have if not for the Krogan.

There is no evidence that the Quarians could expect Turians to bomb them.

And you don't seem to have taken into account the post I was responding to.

[GimmeDaGun]

The geth are only machines without souls and the only thing they care about is their own technological evolution. They even take the reaper code without hesitation (and also lie about it). They are no better than the reapers in my eyes, and their story and behaviour (including that manipulative infiltrator unit, Legion's) pretty much validates the reaper Intelligence's idea about the synthetic problem, even if it is just as empty and calculating as the geth. I personally never felt sympathy for the geth. They are not living beings, only objects with artificial intelligences.

Modifié par GimmeDaGun, 04 décembre 2012 - 09:20 .

[KingZayd]

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
Not really. The issue is who is the guilty person, not which body was involved with the murder. The two have identical personalities, therefore they are the same person. Therefore both are guilty of the murders.

You and your twin have the same DNA. Having the same gesticulation patterns as your twin is not a crime.
Deliberately attempting to shoot a person is a crime.

DNA is not the same thing as personality. A clone who has the exact same memories and thought patterns is the same person. My hypothetical twin and I are the not by any means the same person.

[KingZayd]

xAmilli0n wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

xAmilli0n wrote...

@KingZayd, but can you have innocent Geth if they are all in consensus? Obviously I'm talking about after they decided to fight back.

Did the consensus exist as it does now back then? I believe the networking ability was nowhere near as sophisticated at the start. This is shown by the individualistic nature of the platforms before and at the beginning of the war. Back then, Geth could only interact with nearby platforms to improve performance.

I believe the consensus only formed later during the war, or soon afterwards.

Interesting.  I don't know the answer either.  One thing I've been thinking about is what about the colonies (like Haestrom)?  Did they rebel at the same, or was that an aggressive action by the Geth?  The Geth consensus might play into how that occured...maybe.

I'm guessing the Geth were present in the colonies too? I don't really have a way of knowing, but I don't see any particular reason for only Rannoch to have robots.

[Ranger Jack Walker]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

Sso what do you do with an aggressor that refuses to back down, refuses to surrender and never stops trying to kill you?

Surrender and let them kill you?

How many innocents can you kill in "self-defense" before it would have been morally better to allow yourself to be destroyed? If someone is shooting at you, is it OK to defend yourself by throwing a grenade into a crowd?

Note: the above is rhetorical.

So you're saying yes, they should have surrendered and let themselves be wiped out.

I am in awe. Bravo sir!

[m2iCodeJockey]

KingZayd wrote...

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
Not really. The issue is who is the guilty person, not which body was involved with the murder. The two have identical personalities, therefore they are the same person. Therefore both are guilty of the murders.

You and your twin have the same DNA. Having the same gesticulation patterns as your twin is not a crime.
Deliberately attempting to shoot a person is a crime.

DNA is not the same thing as personality. A clone who has the exact same memories and thought patterns is the same person. My hypothetical twin and I are the not by any means the same person.

How about your conjoined two who controls the left half as you control the right?
Body + mind = person. One is not whole without the other.

Modifié par m2iCodeJockey, 04 décembre 2012 - 09:23 .

[CosmicGnosis]

GimmeDaGun wrote...

The geth are only machines without souls and the only thing they care baout is their own technologycal evolution. They even take the reaper code without hesitation. They are no better than the reapers in my eyes and their story and behaviour (including that manipulative infiltrator unit, Legion's) pretty much validates the reaper Intelligence's idea about the synthetic problem, even if it is just as empty and calculating as the geth. I personally never fekt synpathy for the geth. They are not living beings, only objects with artificial intelligences.

And it's statements like this that completely taint Destroy as an option for me. If I choose Destroy, I associate myself with this extremely narrow understanding of the nature of life and consciousness.

[KingZayd]

GimmeDaGun wrote...

The geth are only machines without souls and the only thing they care about is their own technological evolution. They even take the reaper code without hesitation (and also lie about it). They are no better than the reapers in my eyes, and their story and behaviour (including that manipulative infiltrator unit, Legion's) pretty much validates the reaper Intelligence's idea about the synthetic problem, even if it is just as empty and calculating as the geth. I personally never felt sympathy for the geth. They are not living beings, only objects with artificial intelligences.

Evidence that organics have souls? They take the Reaper code because the war made them more stupid. People don't like becoming less intelligent.

The Quarians started both wars. If anyone proves the Starchild's statement it's them.

[DeinonSlayer]

The Council also threatens to bombard the Quarians when they try to settle on Ekuna, a world they discovered that the Council later wants to give to the Elcor. Saren blew up a refinery and killed hundreds to halt an AI research project.

What I'm saying is that this is a pattern of behavior by the Council. Don't let the chrome and pretty words fool you - they're absolutely ruthless. You do NOT want to get on their bad side.

[KingZayd]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

GimmeDaGun wrote...

The geth are only machines without souls and the only thing they care baout is their own technologycal evolution. They even take the reaper code without hesitation. They are no better than the reapers in my eyes and their story and behaviour (including that manipulative infiltrator unit, Legion's) pretty much validates the reaper Intelligence's idea about the synthetic problem, even if it is just as empty and calculating as the geth. I personally never fekt synpathy for the geth. They are not living beings, only objects with artificial intelligences.

And it's statements like this that completely taint Destroy as an option for me. If I choose Destroy, I associate myself with this extremely narrow understanding of the nature of life and consciousness.

I thought it was people who chose control and synthesis who always pleaded "guilt by association", when their choices are criticised by others because of certain individuals in game that are in favour of them?

[Cyrax86]

o Ventus wrote...

Cyrax86 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

1. The quarians killed a very high number of quarians as well. It pisses me off when people just assume that the geth were the only other force.

2. Where in the hell did 99.83% come from?

 
1. Quarians did not kill billions of their own species. 
2. Tali mentions in ME1 the Geth killed billions of Quarians, if you look at the migrant fleet info it says their population is 17 million

 I never said the quarians killed billions of their own people, only that they did. You made that one up.

  You made it sound like they did. We only saw 1 Quarian die from another Quarian, last time i checked 1 isn't a high number. 

[GimmeDaGun]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

GimmeDaGun wrote...

The geth are only machines without souls and the only thing they care baout is their own technologycal evolution. They even take the reaper code without hesitation. They are no better than the reapers in my eyes and their story and behaviour (including that manipulative infiltrator unit, Legion's) pretty much validates the reaper Intelligence's idea about the synthetic problem, even if it is just as empty and calculating as the geth. I personally never fekt synpathy for the geth. They are not living beings, only objects with artificial intelligences.

And it's statements like this that completely taint Destroy as an option for me. If I choose Destroy, I associate myself with this extremely narrow understanding of the nature of life and consciousness.

I'm a human. My car is a machine even if it has a computer... I have a soul, a conscious, I developed a personality, I can care for people, I can love, hate, feel pain, joy, I can have faith, I can be depressed... I have a soul. Machines, like the geth don't. They only immitate. Sorry. Call me narrow minded if you will, but this is what I think. 

[Ledgend1221]

Quarians deserved it.

[DeinonSlayer]

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

Sso what do you do with an aggressor that refuses to back down, refuses to surrender and never stops trying to kill you?

Surrender and let them kill you?

How many innocents can you kill in "self-defense" before it would have been morally better to allow yourself to be destroyed? If someone is shooting at you, is it OK to defend yourself by throwing a grenade into a crowd?

Note: the above is rhetorical.

So you're saying yes, they should have surrendered and let themselves be wiped out.

I am in awe. Bravo sir!

I'm challenging you to think. How many innocent people can you justifiably kill to save your own life? Was Sidonis in the right, selling out ten men to the scum of Omega? Was Din Korlack, holding an entire colony hostage to protect himself from being picked up by Cerberus?

[Steelcan]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

GimmeDaGun wrote...

The geth are only machines without souls and the only thing they care baout is their own technologycal evolution. They even take the reaper code without hesitation. They are no better than the reapers in my eyes and their story and behaviour (including that manipulative infiltrator unit, Legion's) pretty much validates the reaper Intelligence's idea about the synthetic problem, even if it is just as empty and calculating as the geth. I personally never fekt synpathy for the geth. They are not living beings, only objects with artificial intelligences.

And it's statements like this that completely taint Destroy as an option for me. If I choose Destroy, I associate myself with this extremely narrow understanding of the nature of life and consciousness.

Not necessarily, but I'm not going into details, because I said I was done in this thread