1059 réponses à ce sujet

[xAmilli0n]

KingZayd wrote...

xAmilli0n wrote...

Interesting.  I don't know the answer either.  One thing I've been thinking about is what about the colonies (like Haestrom)?  Did they rebel at the same, or was that an aggressive action by the Geth?  The Geth consensus might play into how that occured...maybe.

I'm guessing the Geth were present in the colonies too? I don't really have a way of knowing, but I don't see any particular reason for only Rannoch to have robots.

I was more referring to how those colony rebellions occured.  Was an aggressive action after they took over Rannoch, or was it simultanious?  The key question being, would an established Geth consensus be would be necessary for it to occur?  This is all speculation of course, know way for us to know for sure.

Modifié par xAmilli0n, 04 décembre 2012 - 09:30 .

[Ledgend1221]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

Sso what do you do with an aggressor that refuses to back down, refuses to surrender and never stops trying to kill you?

Surrender and let them kill you?

How many innocents can you kill in "self-defense" before it would have been morally better to allow yourself to be destroyed? If someone is shooting at you, is it OK to defend yourself by throwing a grenade into a crowd?

Note: the above is rhetorical.

So you're saying yes, they should have surrendered and let themselves be wiped out.

I am in awe. Bravo sir!

I'm challenging you to think. How many innocent people can you justifiably kill to save your own life? Was Sidonis in the right, selling out ten men to the scum of Omega? Was Din Korlack, holding an entire colony hostage to protect himself from being picked up by Cerberus?

When it's Genocide vs Genocide I'm backing my species.

[KingZayd]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

The Council also threatens to bombard the Quarians when they try to settle on Ekuna, a world they discovered that the Council later wants to give to the Elcor. Saren blew up a refinery and killed hundreds to halt an AI research project.

What I'm saying is that this is a pattern of behavior by the Council. Don't let the chrome and pretty words fool you - they're absolutely ruthless. You do NOT want to get on their bad side.

The Quarians are discriminated against after the attack certainly. And the politics of the Citadel has always been ruthless indeed, but they aren't rash. I doubt they'd declare war on the Quarians for having inadvertedly created AIs. Especially if the Quarians were as militaristic as I suspect they were.

Modifié par KingZayd, 04 décembre 2012 - 09:31 .

[KingZayd]

xAmilli0n wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

xAmilli0n wrote...

Interesting.  I don't know the answer either.  One thing I've been thinking about is what about the colonies (like Haestrom)?  Did they rebel at the same, or was that an aggressive action by the Geth?  The Geth consensus might play into how that occured...maybe.

I'm guessing the Geth were present in the colonies too? I don't really have a way of knowing, but I don't see any particular reason for only Rannoch to have robots.

I was more referring to how those colony rebellions occured.  Was an aggressive action after they took over Rannoch, or was it simultanious?  The key question being, would an established Geth consensus be would be necessary for it to occur?  This is all speculation of course, know way for us to know for sure.

I guess it depends on whether those planets tried to destroy the Geth too. If so, then I doubt the Geth would have been around on those worlds if they hadn't rebelled, implying that they were destroyed, and then the Geth from Rannoch wiped out the Quarians on those worlds.

Alternatively it was another rebellion that the Rannoch Geth may have joined in on after they'd finished on Rannoch.

[CosmicGnosis]

GimmeDaGun wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

GimmeDaGun wrote...

The geth are only machines without souls and the only thing they care baout is their own technologycal evolution. They even take the reaper code without hesitation. They are no better than the reapers in my eyes and their story and behaviour (including that manipulative infiltrator unit, Legion's) pretty much validates the reaper Intelligence's idea about the synthetic problem, even if it is just as empty and calculating as the geth. I personally never fekt synpathy for the geth. They are not living beings, only objects with artificial intelligences.

And it's statements like this that completely taint Destroy as an option for me. If I choose Destroy, I associate myself with this extremely narrow understanding of the nature of life and consciousness.

I'm a human. My car is a machine even if it has a computer... I have a soul, a conscious, I developed a personality, I can care for people, I can love, hate, feel pain, joy, I can have faith, I can be depressed... I have a soul. Machines, like the geth don't. They only immitate. Sorry. Call me narrow minded if you will, but this is what I think. 

All of those emotions are determined by the biochemistry of your brain. You are an organic machine. This fact does not diminish your existence. It's amazing that the laws of nature allow for the existence of living matter. It may even be possible to create a non-organic consciousness.

[AresKeith]

Here's one way, it was 300 years ago and the Geth didn't want to wipe out the Quarians so they let them go

[KingZayd]

Finn the Jakey wrote...

So every single Quarian man, woman or child was a psychopathic maniac devoted to killing the Geth?

More so than every single Geth platform was devoted to killing the Quarians before the Morning war, as none of them were.

[Steelcan]

[quote]CosmicGnosis wrote...

[quote]GimmeDaGun wrote...

[quote]CosmicGnosis wrote...

[quote]GimmeDaGun wrote...

The geth are only machines without souls and the only thing they care baout is their own technologycal evolution. They even take the reaper code without hesitation. They are no better than the reapers in my eyes and their story and behaviour (including that manipulative infiltrator unit, Legion's) pretty much validates the reaper Intelligence's idea about the synthetic problem, even if it is just as empty and calculating as the geth. I personally never fekt synpathy for the geth. They are not living beings, only objects with artificial intelligences.[/quote]

And it's statements like this that completely taint Destroy as an option for me. If I choose Destroy, I associate myself with this extremely narrow understanding of the nature of life and consciousness.

[/quote]

You and I should talk sometime.  Destroyisn't as bad as you seem to think.

[GimmeDaGun]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

GimmeDaGun wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

GimmeDaGun wrote...

The geth are only machines without souls and the only thing they care baout is their own technologycal evolution. They even take the reaper code without hesitation. They are no better than the reapers in my eyes and their story and behaviour (including that manipulative infiltrator unit, Legion's) pretty much validates the reaper Intelligence's idea about the synthetic problem, even if it is just as empty and calculating as the geth. I personally never fekt synpathy for the geth. They are not living beings, only objects with artificial intelligences.

And it's statements like this that completely taint Destroy as an option for me. If I choose Destroy, I associate myself with this extremely narrow understanding of the nature of life and consciousness.

I'm a human. My car is a machine even if it has a computer... I have a soul, a conscious, I developed a personality, I can care for people, I can love, hate, feel pain, joy, I can have faith, I can be depressed... I have a soul. Machines, like the geth don't. They only immitate. Sorry. Call me narrow minded if you will, but this is what I think. 

All of those emotions are determined by the biochemistry of your brain. You are an organic machine. This fact does not diminish your existence. It's amazing that the laws of nature allow for the existence of living matter. It may even be possible to create a non-organic consciousness.

This is only the materialistic view on the human being and life in general. I'm not a materialist, so I can't relate to this idea, even if I try to respect the fact that many do view things the way you do.

Modifié par GimmeDaGun, 04 décembre 2012 - 09:39 .

[DeinonSlayer]

KingZayd wrote...

Finn the Jakey wrote...

So every single Quarian man, woman or child was a psychopathic maniac devoted to killing the Geth?

More so than every single Geth platform was devoted to killing the Quarians before the Morning war, as none of them were.

Quarians jumped from minority to majority. Geth jumped from none to all.

[KingZayd]

GimmeDaGun wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

GimmeDaGun wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

GimmeDaGun wrote...

The geth are only machines without souls and the only thing they care baout is their own technologycal evolution. They even take the reaper code without hesitation. They are no better than the reapers in my eyes and their story and behaviour (including that manipulative infiltrator unit, Legion's) pretty much validates the reaper Intelligence's idea about the synthetic problem, even if it is just as empty and calculating as the geth. I personally never fekt synpathy for the geth. They are not living beings, only objects with artificial intelligences.

And it's statements like this that completely taint Destroy as an option for me. If I choose Destroy, I associate myself with this extremely narrow understanding of the nature of life and consciousness.

I'm a human. My car is a machine even if it has a computer... I have a soul, a conscious, I developed a personality, I can care for people, I can love, hate, feel pain, joy, I can have faith, I can be depressed... I have a soul. Machines, like the geth don't. They only immitate. Sorry. Call me narrow minded if you will, but this is what I think. 

All of those emotions are determined by the biochemistry of your brain. You are an organic machine. This fact does not diminish your existence. It's amazing that the laws of nature allow for the existence of living matter. It may even be possible to create a non-organic consciousness.

This is only the materialistic view on the human being and life in general. I'm not a materialistj, so I can't relate to this idea, even if I try to respect that many do view things the way you do.

So what is it about a synthetic body that is so soul-incompatible?
And what makes you think that, even if we have souls that the Quarians do too?

[KingZayd]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Finn the Jakey wrote...

So every single Quarian man, woman or child was a psychopathic maniac devoted to killing the Geth?

More so than every single Geth platform was devoted to killing the Quarians before the Morning war, as none of them were.

Quarians jumped from minority to majority. Geth jumped from none to all.

evidence that it was a minority to begin with?
the Geth were still at 0 when the Quarians decided to kill them all. The Quarians were not at 0 when the Geth retaliated.

Modifié par KingZayd, 04 décembre 2012 - 09:44 .

[HK-90210]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Something else to keep in mind: AI was illegal in Council space. Outlawed by the organization that hunted the Rachni to extinction, sterilized the Krogan, and occupies and bombards Shanxi because humans tried to activate a nearby dormant Mass Relay. Forget "trade embargo." Forget "losing their embassy." The Quarians could expect Turian dreadnoughts in their skies, bombing their cities, if they didn't act.

Hadn't thought of things in that light before. Damn. *goes off to think for a while.*

[KingZayd]

Finn the Jakey wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Finn the Jakey wrote...

So every single Quarian man, woman or child was a psychopathic maniac devoted to killing the Geth?

More so than every single Geth platform was devoted to killing the Quarians before the Morning war, as none of them were.

The difference is that EVERY Geth actively took part in the genocide, while most Quarian civilians had nothing to do with the Geth.

Not true. Some Geth refused to fight, others even complied with the shut downs.

And how many of the Quarians were civillians?

None of the Geth had actively taken part in any genocide when the Quarians started trying to kill them.

Modifié par KingZayd, 04 décembre 2012 - 09:45 .

[thehomeworld]

Since ME2 BW wanted the geth to be seen as misunderstood hence we got Legion who then said all the geth we ran into from ME were the badguys it's implied these are the guys who killed off the 99% of the Quarians I guess while the rest of the "good geth" sat back and watched?

It would be one thing for the good geth to be like the reason that 1% got away was because we mounted an offensive to make that happen but then over the 300+ years all they did was sit on Rannoch and pine? He doesn't say what they were doing other then geth were building a future that doesn't mean the good geth only were doing that it doesn't mean the bad geth weren't helping in that in some way.

They went over board in ME3 making Legion a propagandist. It doesn't help Tali never mentions a percentage she just says lots of people died. She doesn't say you killed 99% of my people and starvation killed off even more we're lucky to be alive right now!

Legion is a decent character but the moral compass of BW is off by their logic Hitler, Col Pot, and others should be touted as poor victims of circumstance.

[GimmeDaGun]

KingZayd wrote...

GimmeDaGun wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

GimmeDaGun wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

GimmeDaGun wrote...

The geth are only machines without souls and the only thing they care baout is their own technologycal evolution. They even take the reaper code without hesitation. They are no better than the reapers in my eyes and their story and behaviour (including that manipulative infiltrator unit, Legion's) pretty much validates the reaper Intelligence's idea about the synthetic problem, even if it is just as empty and calculating as the geth. I personally never fekt synpathy for the geth. They are not living beings, only objects with artificial intelligences.

And it's statements like this that completely taint Destroy as an option for me. If I choose Destroy, I associate myself with this extremely narrow understanding of the nature of life and consciousness.

I'm a human. My car is a machine even if it has a computer... I have a soul, a conscious, I developed a personality, I can care for people, I can love, hate, feel pain, joy, I can have faith, I can be depressed... I have a soul. Machines, like the geth don't. They only immitate. Sorry. Call me narrow minded if you will, but this is what I think. 

All of those emotions are determined by the biochemistry of your brain. You are an organic machine. This fact does not diminish your existence. It's amazing that the laws of nature allow for the existence of living matter. It may even be possible to create a non-organic consciousness.

This is only the materialistic view on the human being and life in general. I'm not a materialistj, so I can't relate to this idea, even if I try to respect that many do view things the way you do.

So what is it about a synthetic body that is so soul-incompatible?
And what makes you think that, even if we have souls that the Quarians do too?

1. That it's only a construct, a product of engineering. A flawed creation of an imperfect organic being, including it's intelligence.
2. Well... this one is a good question. I don't believe in the existence of extraterrestrial sapient life forms (I don't say that it's not possible tough), so I kind of treat the quarians as I would treat humans. Every alien in the ME universe is actually "human" if you know what I mean. There's nothing unhuman or alien (except for their biology) about them. So I assume that they have a soul.

Modifié par GimmeDaGun, 04 décembre 2012 - 09:48 .

[DeinonSlayer]

KingZayd wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Finn the Jakey wrote...

So every single Quarian man, woman or child was a psychopathic maniac devoted to killing the Geth?

More so than every single Geth platform was devoted to killing the Quarians before the Morning war, as none of them were.

Quarians jumped from minority to majority. Geth jumped from none to all.

evidence that it was a minority to begin with?
the Geth were still at 0, when the Quarians decided to kill them all. The Quarians were not at 0, when the Geth retaliated.

"As time went on, those opposed to martial law were ultimately outnumbered."

The Geth are a collective entity that governs by consensus. That was the only thought process they knew. As soon as the majority of public opinion shifted, the Geth saw it as a new "consensus" and treated the entire "creator collective" as hostile.

[KingZayd]

thehomeworld wrote...

Since ME2 BW wanted the geth to be seen as misunderstood hence we got Legion who then said all the geth we ran into from ME were the badguys it's implied these are the guys who killed off the 99% of the Quarians I guess while the rest of the "good geth" sat back and watched?

It would be one thing for the good geth to be like the reason that 1% got away was because we mounted an offensive to make that happen but then over the 300+ years all they did was sit on Rannoch and pine? He doesn't say what they were doing other then geth were building a future that doesn't mean the good geth only were doing that it doesn't mean the bad geth weren't helping in that in some way.

They went over board in ME3 making Legion a propagandist. It doesn't help Tali never mentions a percentage she just says lots of people died. She doesn't say you killed 99% of my people and starvation killed off even more we're lucky to be alive right now!

Legion is a decent character but the moral compass of BW is off by their logic Hitler, Col Pot, and others should be touted as poor victims of circumstance.

No. The great schism happened long after the Morning War.

[KingZayd]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Finn the Jakey wrote...

So every single Quarian man, woman or child was a psychopathic maniac devoted to killing the Geth?

More so than every single Geth platform was devoted to killing the Quarians before the Morning war, as none of them were.

Quarians jumped from minority to majority. Geth jumped from none to all.

evidence that it was a minority to begin with?
the Geth were still at 0, when the Quarians decided to kill them all. The Quarians were not at 0, when the Geth retaliated.

"As time went on, those opposed to martial law were ultimately outnumbered."

The Geth are a collective entity that governs by consensus. That was the only thought process they knew. As soon as the majority of public opinion shifted, the Geth saw it as a new "consensus" and treated the entire "creator collective" as hostile.

martial law is not the same as shutting down the Geth.

The Geth are NOW a collective entity that governs by consensus. Before they had no "government". Hence all the indivualistic nature at the start of the war.

[Capeo]

Steelcan wrote...

Capeo wrote...

I always kill the Quarians. Mainly for being so boneheaded as to start a war during an ongoing Reaper invasion.

As far as the Morning War, the Quarians started it. They would have wiped the Geth out entirely. The Geth at least stopped when they felt the threat was over. They could have done to the Quarians what they planned to do to the Geth.

As far as the argument that the Geth were just synthetics? The overarching theme of ME is that sufficient advanced synthetics are alive.

. I'm sure that's a comfort to the innocents you are butchering.

You mean the innocent quarians that were killed by other quarians for harboring geth?  Quarians killed their own for getting in the way of their attempted genocide. 

[KingZayd]

GimmeDaGun wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

GimmeDaGun wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

GimmeDaGun wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

GimmeDaGun wrote...

The geth are only machines without souls and the only thing they care baout is their own technologycal evolution. They even take the reaper code without hesitation. They are no better than the reapers in my eyes and their story and behaviour (including that manipulative infiltrator unit, Legion's) pretty much validates the reaper Intelligence's idea about the synthetic problem, even if it is just as empty and calculating as the geth. I personally never fekt synpathy for the geth. They are not living beings, only objects with artificial intelligences.

And it's statements like this that completely taint Destroy as an option for me. If I choose Destroy, I associate myself with this extremely narrow understanding of the nature of life and consciousness.

I'm a human. My car is a machine even if it has a computer... I have a soul, a conscious, I developed a personality, I can care for people, I can love, hate, feel pain, joy, I can have faith, I can be depressed... I have a soul. Machines, like the geth don't. They only immitate. Sorry. Call me narrow minded if you will, but this is what I think. 

All of those emotions are determined by the biochemistry of your brain. You are an organic machine. This fact does not diminish your existence. It's amazing that the laws of nature allow for the existence of living matter. It may even be possible to create a non-organic consciousness.

This is only the materialistic view on the human being and life in general. I'm not a materialistj, so I can't relate to this idea, even if I try to respect that many do view things the way you do.

So what is it about a synthetic body that is so soul-incompatible?
And what makes you think that, even if we have souls that the Quarians do too?

1. That it's only a construct a product of engineering. A flawed creation of an imperfect organic being.
2. Well... this one is a good question. I don't believe in the existence of extraterrestrial intelligent life forms (I don't say that it's not possible tough), so I kind of treat the quarians as I would treat humans. Every alien in the ME universe is actually "human" if you know what I mean. There's nothing unhuman about them. So I assume that they have a soul.

1. Many people are created with flaws. They still have souls right? Our bodies are also constructed.
2. "human" in what way? Can't be because of their shape because Elcor are different. Can't be because their societies are similar because the Rachni function very differently. What defines the "humanity" of the things we're discussing?

Modifié par KingZayd, 04 décembre 2012 - 09:53 .