170 réponses à ce sujet

[cJohnOne]

Dhiro wrote...

cJohnOne wrote...

I think realism helps a world come to life so like it more then not. What's your view on more realistic art styles?

Mine, or Fukairi's?

I was talking to Dhiro so yes you.

[Iakus]

Fukairi wrote...

I laughed so hard when I put the leather armour on leliana. Seriously, it was so unnecessary.

I really found Merril boring. Same as I did Leliana.  I tried both romances on merril and both genders (and hard/off) on Leliana but there was nothing that would interest me really. They were both good girls gone bad ( or in Leliana's case, bad girl gone good and bad again) and I found their storyarc really tiresome and the characters very cliched.

I personally enjoyed Leliana's storyline.  But then, I have a soft spot for redemption stories.  "Bad girls gone good" is a much less used cliche than "good girls gone bad"  

Merril was the worse from these two though, her whole this is bad I am doing but it's ultimately for a good purpose is so overused and ugh, her stupidity with the mirror just reminded me so badly of tamlen from the dalish origins.

Warden: no tamlen we should not go in to the creepy cave
Tamlen : Yes we shall *enter the cave without player's consent*
Warden: Tamlen no, do not touch the mirror
Tamlen: Oo but it is so shiny!
Warden: No no no no no let's just go
Tamlen: shiny.....
Warden: Do not touch it. I mean it
Tamlen :*touches the mirror*
Warden: god ****ing damnit.

:lol:

I think that's why i prefer rivaling her.  At least you can catch her before she goes full-on Anders-crazy

[Vandicus]

Oh boy, the Merril and the mirror debate again. *Waits for the two factions to show up

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

Dhiro wrote...

I personally find Merrill much more deep than most people give her credit for - though I do think her naiveté was handled a little too heavy at times.

In any case, this link has some really great info about character design and sex appeal. It even mentions Isabela.

Deep Really?

I would have said naive, shallow  and stupid, but I guess everyone takes away something different.

[Dhiro]

cJohnOne wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

cJohnOne wrote...

I think realism helps a world come to life so like it more then not. What's your view on more realistic art styles?

Mine, or Fukairi's?

I was talking to Dhiro so yes you.

I like art! More importantly, I like the little twists that an artist's personal style can create. A more realistic look is fine, but it can slip into boring very fast, like DA: O. I know that many people here praise the game for its realism, but all I could see was the game trying, and failing, to capture a more realistic look. Instead, I got pale backgrounds and the occasional brown.

My problem isn't with unrealistic armors or weapons, but ugly ones. I personally dislike the spikes DA II likes to use on its weaponry.

So I'm okay with Isabela's look. I like how it tells so much about her with a quick glance, and I like how it suits her. I don't mind ignoring realism in favor of that.

[Wifflebottom]

 I'm not sure what your issue with the females in the game is. Do you not like their appearance or personalities?
Let's go through the female party members of Dragon Age

Origins Romanceable
-Morrigan: Set in her opinions and strong willed. If you didn't give her what she wants she'll leave your ass. Survival of the fittest philosophy which some would view as cold. Gaining her friendship reveals that she's not as cold as she lets on. Default appearance: Pants and a very low cut robe thing
-Leliana: Former Orlesian spy that's turned to the Chantry and become a faithful sister. Very kind and understanding but strong in her faith in the Maker. Her past was fairly dark and she's trying to redeem herself. Default appearance: Chantry Robe

Origins Non Romanceable
-Wynne: Mentor-like figure. Strong moral compass. Default appearance: Circle Robe
-Shale: Um, an awesome golem. Default appearance: statue

DA2 Romanceable
-Isabella: Pirate captain. Enjoys having sex. Very confident. Admits to her flaws and wears them proudly. Default appearance: Pantless with thigh-high boots
-Merrill: Dalish elf that's the First of her clan. High aptitude for magic. Seeks to learn from the past. Sees blood magic as a tool that is not inherently evil. Naive about human culture. Default appearance: Dalish robes

DA2 Non-romanceable
-Aveline: Captain of the guard that values law and order. Loyal. Default appearance: Full suit of armor

Um I don't know about you but none of those characters seem to be written with the intent of pleasing only men. All of them can be relatable to anyone male or female. None of the female romance characters are innocent or evil(Morrigan's debatable) did you even play the game? Isabela is the only one you seem to have a problem with. ****-shaming will get you no where and just because you don't like people that embrace sexuality. OP you seem very narrow-minded...

Modifié par Wifflebottom, 04 décembre 2012 - 09:38 .

[Dhiro]

DinoSteve wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

I personally find Merrill much more deep than most people give her credit for - though I do think her naiveté was handled a little too heavy at times.

In any case, this link has some really great info about character design and sex appeal. It even mentions Isabela.

Deep Really?

I would have said naive, shallow  and stupid, but I guess everyone takes away something different.

I'm sorry that you couldn't enjoy her character. Your suffering is breaking my heart.

[PinkDiamondstl]

 

Fukairi wrote...

I mean, as a woman who plays videogames I would really love a well thought out female character that was not just made thinking of the male audience only.
You mean like Leliana, Wynne, Morrigan,Isabela, Aveline, and Merril? I agree.

.


Merril should be removed from that list...<_<

Modifié par PinkDiamondstl, 04 décembre 2012 - 09:42 .

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

Dhiro wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

I personally find Merrill much more deep than most people give her credit for - though I do think her naiveté was handled a little too heavy at times.

In any case, this link has some really great info about character design and sex appeal. It even mentions Isabela.

Deep Really?

I would have said naive, shallow  and stupid, but I guess everyone takes away something different.

I'm sorry that you couldn't enjoy her character. Your suffering is breaking my heart.

Who said I was suffering, I just don't understand how you found her deep.

[Dhiro]

DinoSteve wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

I personally find Merrill much more deep than most people give her credit for - though I do think her naiveté was handled a little too heavy at times.

In any case, this link has some really great info about character design and sex appeal. It even mentions Isabela.

Deep Really?

I would have said naive, shallow  and stupid, but I guess everyone takes away something different.

I'm sorry that you couldn't enjoy her character. Your suffering is breaking my heart.

Who said I was suffering, I just don't understand how you found her deep.

I always find that I understand characters more on replays. Maybe you can do that! If anything, it'll be loads of fun!

[Fox In The Box]

PinkDiamondstl wrote...

 

Fukairi wrote...

I mean, as a woman who plays videogames I would really love a well thought out female character that was not just made thinking of the male audience only.

You mean like Leliana, Wynne, Morrigan, Isabela, Aveline, and Merril? 

I agree.


Merril should be removed from that list...<_<

No, she shouldn't.

[Maria Caliban]

PinkDiamondstl wrote...

 

Fukairi wrote...

I mean, as a woman who plays videogames I would really love a well thought out female character that was not just made thinking of the male audience only.

You mean like Leliana, Wynne, Morrigan, Isabela, Aveline, and Merril? 

I agree.


Merril should be removed from that list...<_<

Merril was thought out.
Merril was not made for 'the male audience only.'

She can still be a bad character and meet these criteria.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 04 décembre 2012 - 09:43 .

[Face of Evil]

What exactly about Merrill was "designed for the male audience only?" The fact that she was sweet and charming?

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

Meh I doubt it. Merril isn't even my least favorite character in DA2, I could live with Merril if she was a half decent healer, don't get me started on Anders.

[Sir George Parr]

The Women in DA2 were a huge leap forward compared to Origins. Isabela is easily the most interesting of the companions from being a big sister to merrill, playfully trying to corrupt Bethany and slagging matches with Aveline. Even as a lover to Fem Hawke, the pair of them compliment each other perfectly.I never imagined that a minor character from Origins had such potential to become such a memorable character Even Fem Hawke herself is one of most engaging women i have ever encountered in any game. Shame i may never see these two trouble makers again.

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

Oh my god is this thread for real
One of the very LAST things anyone could reasonably criticize Dragon Age for is its female characters. OP was not paying attention or is making assumptions.

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

Face of Evil wrote...

What exactly about Merrill was "designed for the male audience only?" The fact that she was sweet and charming?

I'd feel weird if I was even a little bit attracted to Merril, apart from she's a fictional character her attitude and intelligence is almost like a child, there is nothing attractive about that.

[upsettingshorts]

I am sure Mary Kirby and Sheryl Chee were only thinking of dudes when they wrote Merrill and Isabela, respectively. 

DinoSteve wrote...

I'd feel weird if I was even a little bit attracted to Merril, apart from she's a fictional character her attitude and intelligence is almost like a child, there is nothing attractive about that. 

This opinion is exclusively expressed by people who did not listen to anything she actually said.

You have, in essence, bought the book for it's cover and decided what it was about before reading the contents.

[dunstan1993]

It's a very very sexist game, very very sexist indeed.

Modifié par dunstan1993, 04 décembre 2012 - 09:55 .

[Fukairi]

Dhiro wrote...

Fukairi wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

Fukairi wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

But I thought that one of the points of Isabela's arc was that even under the clothes and the sex she is also a complex human being? And that there is no shame in liking sex? Both Isabela and Aveline score very high on my strong, independent female character list.

It's been a while since I played isabela's arc through, and I only did it once since I disliked the character so much. But I have a free weekend so I'll play it through and get back to you on that, since I really don't remember the whole, deep and complex character part. But I could be wrong. So I'll right now just take issue on the clothing.

Even if her character is portrayed as someone who likes sex but (acclaimedly) a well thought character not just there for the male audiences entertainment, there is no logic to having a close range combat npc dress up in.... a shirt. and shoes. The rogue men don't flaunter around without armour, so why should she?

Hm... have you seen Varric's armor? His entire chest is exposed. In DA II, the companion armors are used to tell something about the character, to let you look at them and grasp at their personality. Video-games are also a visual media, after all.

Yes well, I stated before that I do think the men could use some work too in another reply (it was subtle), but this is about the portrayal of the female characters. But yes, I found varric's shirt to be a tad ridiculous, but he is a ranged unit. Isabela is again, close combat. I am not asking for all the women to wear heavy plate and helmets so you can't make anything out of them, but a little less fan-service and a bit more realism would be nice. You can't honestly argue that there was no way that isabela could've wore pants and shown less clleveage and still show off some personality.

Not at all. However, as I see Isabela's clothes as simply an extension of her personality, I really don't care about realism that much.

Yes well, there are other ways to extend her character and the reason these are not used is the indifference towards the designs. "It could be better, or more realistic, but I don't really care"
What if we all had the same attitude towards, for example, the repetitive maps or battle dynamics or storyline? Often enough occurring complaints of the second edition of the franchise, but it's worked on because people care. If only we could get the same enthusiasm towards the (female) character development.

anyways on we go. I went out to prove that yes, it could've been handled differently.

Here's a quick sketch of isabela (with no reference so do ignore the face and hair) of what her outfit could've been




she is still a pirate, she has a corset that gives a logical explanation to boobs that perky and she has pants. whoo. Okay I seriously drew this in less than 10 minutes so the thought process is not really there, but I just used this to demonstrate that pants are okay, so forgive me if the design is a bit over the place

[Maria Caliban]

"Women in DA 2 are fail because Isabela has no pants."

That's seriously what I'm getting from this thread.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 04 décembre 2012 - 09:57 .

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I am sure Mary Kirby and Sheryl Chee were only thinking of dudes when they wrote Merrill and Isabela, respectively. 

DinoSteve wrote...

I'd feel weird if I was even a little bit attracted to Merril, apart from she's a fictional character her attitude and intelligence is almost like a child, there is nothing attractive about that. 

This opinion is exclusively expressed by people who did not listen to anything she actually said.

You have, in essence, bought the book for it's cover and decided what it was about before reading the contents.

I did indeed listen and understand what she did and what she said, and the only place you encounter her naivety is in children, srsly if she was a real person and if I wasn't so annoyed with her, I'd feel sorry for her as she is so naive and stupid.

[upsettingshorts]

@Fukairi:  Isabela doesn't want to wear pants. She would side-eye you for broaching the topic with her, question your motives, and probably laugh in your face after telling you to get over yourself. You know, like she did with Aveline in the actual game.

If you cannot see the distinction between that and a character who is simply made sexy for the sake of it (eg. Ashley) than there is no hope for this discussion.

Seriously.  Isabela responds to criticisms like yours in character.  In the game. To other characters.

DinoSteve wrote...
I did indeed listen

[Citation needed]

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 04 décembre 2012 - 10:00 .

[Fox In The Box]

Fukairi wrote...

*snip*

Disagreement aside, that is a rather nice sketch. Do you have a DeviantArt account?

[Fukairi]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I am sure Mary Kirby and Sheryl Chee were only thinking of dudes when they wrote Merrill and Isabela, respectively. 

DinoSteve wrote...

I'd feel weird if I was even a little bit attracted to Merril, apart from she's a fictional character her attitude and intelligence is almost like a child, there is nothing attractive about that. 

This opinion is exclusively expressed by people who did not listen to anything she actually said.

You have, in essence, bought the book for it's cover and decided what it was about before reading the contents.

It's not about who wrote it, it's about what sells. Or have you not heard of the lady-not-appearing-on-this-game.

It doesn't matter if all the writers were females, but as long as the gaming audience want's to continue on their path of obscure female characters, I don't really see how the writers can have a say in this. The games are meant to sell, and if most of the people wish to trade bigger boobs for less personality, well, that's exactly what we are going to get, no matter the makers gender.