170 réponses à ce sujet

[upsettingshorts]

Fukairi wrote...

to trade bigger boobs for less personality, well, that's exactly what we are going to get

You cannot be serious.  

I'm reposting this due to page flip:

Upsettingshorts wrote...

@Fukairi:  Isabela doesn't want to wear pants. She would side-eye you for broaching the topic with her, question your motives, and probably laugh in your face after telling you to get over yourself. You know, like she did with Aveline in the actual game.

If you cannot see the distinction between that and a character who is simply made sexy for the sake of it (eg. Ashley) than there is no hope for this discussion.

Seriously.  Isabela responds to criticisms like yours in character.  In the game. To other characters.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 04 décembre 2012 - 10:03 .

[Maria Caliban]

Fox In The Box wrote...

Fukairi wrote...

*snip*

Disagreement aside, that is a rather nice sketch. Do you have a DeviantArt account?

She does.

[CuriousArtemis]

Fukairi wrote...

Okay I'm maybe being harsh, but I think bioware has been really on top of the not-so-popular trend of portraying women as more than just objects or prizes in video games, which has always made me happy. But there is so much room for improvement yet.

Maybe a little harsh, because I enjoyed both characters and I think the BW writers are THE top notch game writers, especially when it comes to creating amazing characters, BUT I know exactly what you're talking about.

I love Isabela, but I mod her in my games so that she is not wearing her ridiculous outfit.

I think her attitude towards sex is a bit Samantha Jones-ish (from Sex and the City) so in that sense it's a "been there, seen that" kind of character archetype, but her VA is so good, and the arc of her relationship with Hawke is also very nice, that I can forgive it. I will confess that it is creepy when she's with a male Hawke for some reason. I don't know why. I prefer her to give up her wild, wild ways for a female Hawke.

(Caveat: Not because loving sex with many partners is a bad thing, but because Isabela appears to use "sex" as a way to keep herself emotionally distant, yadda yadda yadda... don't get me wrong, not saying she is an s-word, etc.)

Merrill is definitely the innocent moe girl. She's fine, but yeah.

The other female companion, Aveline... even SHE is defined as a woman; Isabela teases her for being "manly." So she gets placed inside a little box as well. She's the Female Soldier.

I would like to see a character like Charade become a LI. She is an adventurer, an archer, an Indiana Jones-type figure. Her sex seems completely divorced from her character, and that's amazing.

Modifié par motomotogirl, 04 décembre 2012 - 10:02 .

[Fukairi]

Maria Caliban wrote...

"Women in DA 2 are fail because Isabela has no pants."

That's seriously what I'm getting from this thread.

Well that and merril is or is not innocent.


I can once in a while to post a monologue about the other female characters and npc that would be promptly ignored, if you like?

[Face of Evil]

DinoSteve wrote...

Face of Evil wrote...

What exactly about Merrill was "designed for the male audience only?" The fact that she was sweet and charming?

I'd feel weird if I was even a little bit attracted to Merril, apart from she's a fictional character her attitude and intelligence is almost like a child, there is nothing attractive about that.

Oh, boo on you sir. Boo on you!

Merrill's actually quite smart, and she's quite mature about her dedication to her people. I find her attitude endearing.

[Dhiro]

Fukairi wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

Fukairi wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

Fukairi wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

But I thought that one of the points of Isabela's arc was that even under the clothes and the sex she is also a complex human being? And that there is no shame in liking sex? Both Isabela and Aveline score very high on my strong, independent female character list.

It's been a while since I played isabela's arc through, and I only did it once since I disliked the character so much. But I have a free weekend so I'll play it through and get back to you on that, since I really don't remember the whole, deep and complex character part. But I could be wrong. So I'll right now just take issue on the clothing.

Even if her character is portrayed as someone who likes sex but (acclaimedly) a well thought character not just there for the male audiences entertainment, there is no logic to having a close range combat npc dress up in.... a shirt. and shoes. The rogue men don't flaunter around without armour, so why should she?

Hm... have you seen Varric's armor? His entire chest is exposed. In DA II, the companion armors are used to tell something about the character, to let you look at them and grasp at their personality. Video-games are also a visual media, after all.

Yes well, I stated before that I do think the men could use some work too in another reply (it was subtle), but this is about the portrayal of the female characters. But yes, I found varric's shirt to be a tad ridiculous, but he is a ranged unit. Isabela is again, close combat. I am not asking for all the women to wear heavy plate and helmets so you can't make anything out of them, but a little less fan-service and a bit more realism would be nice. You can't honestly argue that there was no way that isabela could've wore pants and shown less clleveage and still show off some personality.

Not at all. However, as I see Isabela's clothes as simply an extension of her personality, I really don't care about realism that much.

Yes well, there are other ways to extend her character and the reason these are not used is the indifference towards the designs. "It could be better, or more realistic, but I don't really care"
What if we all had the same attitude towards, for example, the repetitive maps or battle dynamics or storyline? Often enough occurring complaints of the second edition of the franchise, but it's worked on because people care. If only we could get the same enthusiasm towards the (female) character development.

anyways on we go. I went out to prove that yes, it could've been handled differently.

Here's a quick sketch of isabela (with no reference so do ignore the face and hair) of what her outfit could've been

-snip-

she is still a pirate, she has a corset that gives a logical explanation to boobs that perky and she has pants. whoo. Okay I seriously drew this in less than 10 minutes so the thought process is not really there, but I just used this to demonstrate that pants are okay, so forgive me if the design is a bit over the place

That's a very pretty art, you have a lot of talent!

I honestly don't see how me not caring for realism in Isabela's clothes is somehow comparable to not caring about maps or battle dynamics or the storyline. Her clothes are, again, an extension of her personality. As pretty as Map Number Three was you won't find any particular insight on, say, Aveline's personality if you look at the crystals hanging from the ceiling.

I simply think you have it backwards. You see Isabela's clothes as a sign that she is nothing more than fanservice, a toy for the male audience. I simply don't think this is true and don't believe her clothes are an issue. I don't "care" because it's not a problem, and I'm not concerned about realism on her outfit because I'm not concerned on realism anywhere else.

Also, how many minutes would take for her to get out of the clothes you've designed?

Minor edit: typos typos!

Modifié par Dhiro, 04 décembre 2012 - 10:08 .

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

Fukairi wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I am sure Mary Kirby and Sheryl Chee were only thinking of dudes when they wrote Merrill and Isabela, respectively. 

DinoSteve wrote...

I'd feel weird if I was even a little bit attracted to Merril, apart from she's a fictional character her attitude and intelligence is almost like a child, there is nothing attractive about that. 

This opinion is exclusively expressed by people who did not listen to anything she actually said.

You have, in essence, bought the book for it's cover and decided what it was about before reading the contents.

It's not about who wrote it, it's about what sells. Or have you not heard of the lady-not-appearing-on-this-game.

It doesn't matter if all the writers were females, but as long as the gaming audience want's to continue on their path of obscure female characters, I don't really see how the writers can have a say in this. The games are meant to sell, and if most of the people wish to trade bigger boobs for less personality, well, that's exactly what we are going to get, no matter the makers gender.

I would like to clarify that when I said attracted I meant personality wise not figure wise.

[DarkSpiral]

DinoSteve wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I am sure Mary Kirby and Sheryl Chee were only thinking of dudes when they wrote Merrill and Isabela, respectively. 

DinoSteve wrote...

I'd feel weird if I was even a little bit attracted to Merril, apart from she's a fictional character her attitude and intelligence is almost like a child, there is nothing attractive about that. 

This opinion is exclusively expressed by people who did not listen to anything she actually said.

You have, in essence, bought the book for it's cover and decided what it was about before reading the contents.

I did indeed listen and understand what she did and what she said, and the only place you encounter her naivety is in children, srsly if she was a real person and if I wasn't so annoyed with her, I'd feel sorry for her as she is so naive and stupid.

Naive?  I'll go with arrogant, in believing she can garuntee that she is the only one to pay the price for her actions, but she is hardly unaware of the fact that her chose path is going to end badly.  She just thinks its going to end bad for her, and her alone.  Thats how the pride demon got to her.  Her sacrifice would herlp her people, and that was worth the price.

Hell, she asks Hawke to come along in Act 3 and specifically requests you to kill her if things to south and she gets possessed.  That isn't naivety.

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
If you cannot see the distinction between that and a character who is simply made sexy for the sake of it (eg. Ashley) than there is no hope for this discussion.

THIS.

No female character can advertise her sexuality because she actually wants sex and it's part of her character, noooo, women's sexuality is only for the benefit of the male audience. *sarcasm*

Not being able to percieve the nuance here is contributing to the problem that calling out sexist character design is trying to solve.

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 04 décembre 2012 - 10:06 .

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

DarkSpiral wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I am sure Mary Kirby and Sheryl Chee were only thinking of dudes when they wrote Merrill and Isabela, respectively. 

DinoSteve wrote...

I'd feel weird if I was even a little bit attracted to Merril, apart from she's a fictional character her attitude and intelligence is almost like a child, there is nothing attractive about that. 

This opinion is exclusively expressed by people who did not listen to anything she actually said.

You have, in essence, bought the book for it's cover and decided what it was about before reading the contents.

I did indeed listen and understand what she did and what she said, and the only place you encounter her naivety is in children, srsly if she was a real person and if I wasn't so annoyed with her, I'd feel sorry for her as she is so naive and stupid.

Naive?  I'll go with arrogant, in believing she can garuntee that she is the only one to pay the price for her actions, but she is hardly unaware of the fact that her chose path is going to end badly.  She just thinks its going to end bad for her, and her alone.  Thats how the pride demon got to her.  Her sacrifice would herlp her people, and that was worth the price.

Hell, she asks Hawke to come along in Act 3 and specifically requests you to kill her if things to south and she gets possessed.  That isn't naivety.

You are right she was arrogant, but you can be both.

[PinkDiamondstl]

Fox In The Box wrote...

PinkDiamondstl wrote...

 

Fukairi wrote...

I mean, as a woman who plays videogames I would really love a well thought out female character that was not just made thinking of the male audience only.

You mean like Leliana, Wynne, Morrigan, Isabela, Aveline, and Merril? 

I agree.


Merril should be removed from that list...<_<

No, she shouldn't.

I disgree she's a total moron...

[upsettingshorts]

Here's what's ****ing brilliant about the Merrill mischaracterizations.

If we took all of her lines and gave them to a character who looked and sounded like me, nobody would be saying I was stupid or naive.

Nobody.

[Fredward]

Fukairi wrote...

I'm really kind of horrified everytime I scan through the DA II (or DA III speculation) posts about characters that should return and I see isabela and merril pop up multiple times.

I mean, as a woman who plays videogames I would really love a well thought out female character that was not just made thinking of the male audience only. I really like the romance part of the game, and it really saddens me that the romance options are always the less interesting ones. I'm so sick of looking the over-bent anatomy and boob windows/ belly button armor and rogues with no pants on jfc. Not to mention the personality for romanceable characters that tends to range from the moemoemoe innocent types (with maybe a little bit evil in them because that makes up all the flaws right?) to the sultry ****es. Really?


Okay I'm maybe being harsh, but I think bioware has been really on top of the not-so-popular trend of portraying women as more than just objects or prizes in video games, which has always made me happy. But there is so much room for improvement yet.

-blinks-

Whaaaaaa...?

[Fukairi]

Okay let's talk about appearances then.
All the women in the game no matter how insignificant or old they are, have perky and quite large breasts, and are thin and 'hollywood' attractive. This can be easily explained to the npc's that they used one body model for each race (pretty sure this applies to male chracters too if we exclude the few obese models), since I can understand that it's costly to model and rig a lot of different models just for background use. But that same thing goes to the backgrounds on the game, and it's being worked on. It'd be nice if there were different bodytypes around (more robust on the more well-off parts presumably) since it's a bit tiring to look at the same model over and over again.

Modifié par Fukairi, 04 décembre 2012 - 10:16 .

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Here's what's ****ing brilliant about the Merrill mischaracterizations.

If we took all of her lines and gave them to a character who looked and sounded like me, nobody would be saying I was stupid or naive.

Nobody.

That depends what do you look like, no I joke, srsly no matter how good looking a girl is if she has a dislikeable personality how would you continue to date or be attracted to her. If I met a attractive girl with Merril's personality she would annoy the **** out of me, hell I wouldn't even want to date her because her personality is so childlike.

[cowoline]

I'm a woman as well and the female characters never bothered me. Aveline is one of the most awesome female companions in the dragon age series, Bethany is sweet and vulnerable, Merrill is troubled and has chosen a desperate path and Isabella's clothes fits her personality.

I actually think they have done great things with the characters in DA II. Though if I have a complaint it is that the eye candy is reserved for men only. No shirtless Fenris or Anders

[Fukairi]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Here's what's ****ing brilliant about the Merrill mischaracterizations.

If we took all of her lines and gave them to a character who looked and sounded like me, nobody would be saying I was stupid or naive.

Nobody.

I would.

[JerHopp]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Here's what's ****ing brilliant about the Merrill mischaracterizations.

If we took all of her lines and gave them to a character who looked and sounded like me, nobody would be saying I was stupid or naive.

Nobody.

Yeah... I need prove.. Go record some lines and come back...

[Atalanta]

Pseudocognition wrote...

Oh my god is this thread for real
One of the very LAST things anyone could reasonably criticize Dragon Age for is its female characters. OP was not paying attention or is making assumptions.

Yeah, I have been guilty of making assumptions that weren't true about Dragon Age characters, fueled in part by my annoyance at how the women in Mass Effect were portrayed. When I went back to actually replay Dragon Age though, I realized that my anger could not have possibly been more misplaced. I'm sorry, DA writers and art team. :'(

[Dhiro]

Fukairi wrote...

Okay let's talk about appearances then.
All the women in the game no matter how insignificant or old they are, have perky and quite large breasts. This can be easily explained to the npc's that they used one body model for each race (pretty sure this applies to male chracters too if we exclude the few obese models), since I can understand that it's costly to model and rig a lot of different models just for background use. But that same thing goes to the backgrounds on the game, and it's being worked on. It'd be nice if there were different bodytypes around (more robust on the more well-off parts presumably) since it's a bit tiring to look at the same model over and over again.

New models are neat.

[DarkSpiral]

JerHopp wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Here's what's ****ing brilliant about the Merrill mischaracterizations.

If we took all of her lines and gave them to a character who looked and sounded like me, nobody would be saying I was stupid or naive.

Nobody.

Yeah... I need prove.. Go record some lines and come back...

Okay, Shorts.  They have a point.

[Maria Caliban]

Fukairi wrote...


All the women in the game no matter how insignificant or old they are, have perky and quite large breasts.

I have no idea how perky Meredith's breasts are, and I'm not sure how big they are either. Why? Because her character design has her in full armor.

[Dhiro]

DarkSpiral wrote...

JerHopp wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Here's what's ****ing brilliant about the Merrill mischaracterizations.

If we took all of her lines and gave them to a character who looked and sounded like me, nobody would be saying I was stupid or naive.

Nobody.

Yeah... I need prove.. Go record some lines and come back...

Okay, Shorts.  They have a point.

Upsetty's manly voice and marvelous beard would probably balance things up.

[upsettingshorts]

DinoSteve wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Here's what's ****ing brilliant about the Merrill mischaracterizations.

If we took all of her lines and gave them to a character who looked and sounded like me, nobody would be saying I was stupid or naive.

Nobody.

That depends what do you look like, no I joke, srsly no matter how good looking a girl is if she has a dislikeable personality how would you continue to date or be attracted to her. If I met a attractive girl with Merril's personality she would annoy the **** out of me, hell I wouldn't even want to date her because her personality is so childlike.

I'm a mid-20s white dude with a standard American accent and reasonably deep voice.

If I were to speak Merrill's lines I'd be called determined, arrogant, headstrong, dismissive, narrow-minded, foolhardy, optimistic...

But not stupid or naive.  There also sure as hell wouldn't be any "children" comments either.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 04 décembre 2012 - 10:19 .