170 réponses à ce sujet

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

Atalanta wrote...

Yeah, I have been guilty of making assumptions that weren't true about Dragon Age characters, fueled in part by my annoyance at how the women in Mass Effect were portrayed. When I went back to actually replay Dragon Age though, I realized that my anger could not have possibly been more misplaced. I'm sorry, DA writers and art team. :'(

I had the same misconceptions when I first game to BSN, too. It's surprising when you discover that a part of the industry has, in fact, passed Feminism 101.

[Fukairi]

Atalanta wrote...

Pseudocognition wrote...

Oh my god is this thread for real
One of the very LAST things anyone could reasonably criticize Dragon Age for is its female characters. OP was not paying attention or is making assumptions.

Yeah, I have been guilty of making assumptions that weren't true about Dragon Age characters, fueled in part by my annoyance at how the women in Mass Effect were portrayed. When I went back to actually replay Dragon Age though, I realized that my anger could not have possibly been more misplaced. I'm sorry, DA writers and art team. :'(

Just because this game is setting a good example to others, does not mean there is no room for critique or improvement. As I stated I am pleased at the way things are handled but they could be better.

For example, disregarding the silly edits to female-male armor switch. Magically a part of the armor just dissappears when you put it on your female chraracters (the part with their boobs in it), like it did with the leather armor in origins. Also I stand by my point that if a character, no matter what gender, is a close range combat class, they should wear appropriate armor.

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Here's what's ****ing brilliant about the Merrill mischaracterizations.

If we took all of her lines and gave them to a character who looked and sounded like me, nobody would be saying I was stupid or naive.

Nobody.

That depends what do you look like, no I joke, srsly no matter how good looking a girl is if she has a dislikeable personality how would you continue to date or be attracted to her. If I met a attractive girl with Merril's personality she would annoy the **** out of me, hell I wouldn't even want to date her because her personality is so childlike.

I'm a mid-20s white dude with a standard American accent and reasonably deep voice.

If I were to speak Merrill's lines I'd be called determined, arrogant, headstrong, dismissive, narrow-minded, foolhardy, optimistic...

But not stupid or naive.  There also sure as hell wouldn't be any "children" comments either.

I agree if your a guy, what I'd call you would be less generous.

Modifié par DinoSteve, 04 décembre 2012 - 10:21 .

[Dhiro]

Fukairi wrote...

Atalanta wrote...

Pseudocognition wrote...

Oh my god is this thread for real
One of the very LAST things anyone could reasonably criticize Dragon Age for is its female characters. OP was not paying attention or is making assumptions.

Yeah, I have been guilty of making assumptions that weren't true about Dragon Age characters, fueled in part by my annoyance at how the women in Mass Effect were portrayed. When I went back to actually replay Dragon Age though, I realized that my anger could not have possibly been more misplaced. I'm sorry, DA writers and art team. :'(

Just because this game is setting a good example to others, does not mean there is no room for critique or improvement. As I stated I am pleased at the way things are handled but they could be better.

For example, disregarding the silly edits to female-male armor switch. Magically a part of the armor just dissappears when you put it on your female chraracters (the part with their boobs in it), like it did with the leather armor in origins. Also I stand by my point that if a character, no matter what gender, is a close range combat class, they should wear appropriate armor.

You must be glad that DA II fixed that, then.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Fukairi wrote...
It doesn't matter if all the writers were females, but as long as the gaming audience want's to continue on their path of obscure female characters, I don't really see how the writers can have a say in this. The games are meant to sell, and if most of the people wish to trade bigger boobs for less personality, well, that's exactly what we are going to get, no matter the makers gender.

The writers have no say in their characters?  Why bother coming on the forums and telling them their female characters need work if you really believe that?  I'm not trying to be snide, I just don't understand.  

Just because a character is meant to be sexy and visually appealing doesn't mean s/he doesn't have less personality.  Isabela, Morrigan, and Mass Effect's Miranda Lawson had lots of characterization if you bothered to get to know them, and more importantly, their attire is an extension of who they are.  If Aveline wants to wear plate mail all the time, that's her character.  If Izzy wants to go pantsless, that's her character.  I'd be quicker to call fanservice if it was the other way around.

And sure, Izzy's attire makes no sense in close combat.  Neither does Fenris's.  Or how about the magical rogue teleport?  Or Hawke swinging around a huge greatsword like a piece of balsa wood, regardless of gender?  The lack of realism is a systemic thing, not just restricted to Izzy because of her boobs.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 04 décembre 2012 - 10:25 .

[Fukairi]

Dhiro wrote...

Fukairi wrote...

Atalanta wrote...

Pseudocognition wrote...

Oh my god is this thread for real
One of the very LAST things anyone could reasonably criticize Dragon Age for is its female characters. OP was not paying attention or is making assumptions.

Yeah, I have been guilty of making assumptions that weren't true about Dragon Age characters, fueled in part by my annoyance at how the women in Mass Effect were portrayed. When I went back to actually replay Dragon Age though, I realized that my anger could not have possibly been more misplaced. I'm sorry, DA writers and art team. :'(

Just because this game is setting a good example to others, does not mean there is no room for critique or improvement. As I stated I am pleased at the way things are handled but they could be better.

For example, disregarding the silly edits to female-male armor switch. Magically a part of the armor just dissappears when you put it on your female chraracters (the part with their boobs in it), like it did with the leather armor in origins. Also I stand by my point that if a character, no matter what gender, is a close range combat class, they should wear appropriate armor.

You must be glad that DA II fixed that, then.

I am, just used it as an example but yeah, good point since it's not relevant anymore. Blaming it on my tiredness, sorry.

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

Fukairi wrote...

Just because this game is setting a good example to others, does not mean there is no room for critique or improvement. As I stated I am pleased at the way things are handled but they could be better.

For example, disregarding the silly edits to female-male armor switch. Magically a part of the armor just dissappears when you put it on your female chraracters (the part with their boobs in it), like it did with the leather armor in origins. Also I stand by my point that if a character, no matter what gender, is a close range combat class, they should wear appropriate armor.

There is exactly only one example of this kind of disparity.

In fact, it is a rule among the concept artists NOT to change things between male and female versions of the armor.

You are assuming the worst based on a pattern in the rest of the industry, but does not apply here.

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 04 décembre 2012 - 10:25 .

[brushyourteeth]

Yeah, I don't see where these complaints are coming from at all. Sorry.

If what you want is to see more females in games who are strong and independent without having to rely on sex appeal to validate their importance in the game, they exist in spades in DA. And if that's not enough, you need look no farther than your female protagonist. If every female character were just like Wynne, or Anora, or Aveline, or Cassandra, or Meredith, or Shale, the games would be pretty boring. You'll meet girls who are promiscuous or cutesy in real life. I'm ok with having that represented in games.

... not to mention that the guys also have to put up with the horny bastard stereotype at least as often as we girls are faced with the naughty sex kitten. :/

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 04 décembre 2012 - 10:29 .

[Vandicus]

brushyourteeth wrote...

Yeah, I don't see where these complaints are coming from at all. Sorry.

If what you want is to see more females in games who are strong and independent without having to rely on sex appeal to validate their importance in the game, they exist in spades in DA. And if that's not enough, you need look no farther than your female protagonist. If every female character were just like Wynne, or Anora, or Aveline, or Cassandra, or Meredith, or Shale, the games would be pretty boring.

... not to mention that the guys also have to put up with the horny bastard stereotype at least as often as we girls are faced with the naughty sex kitten. :/

I say we remove all stereotype complaints by turning everyone into dragons, so we never have these topics again. Who's with me?

[Maria Caliban]

Fukairi wrote...

Just because this game is setting a good example to others, does not mean there is no room for critique or improvement. As I stated I am pleased at the way things are handled but they could be better.

Which is awesome.

Except you implied that the female writers had no control over their characters, and that the women in DA II were not well thought out and had been created with only men in mind.

That's not a critique. That's a mischaracterization.

Vandicus wrote...

I say we remove all stereotype complaints by turning everyone into dragons, so we never have these topics again. Who's with me?

The Dragon Riders of Pern showed that not even psuedo-reptiles are immune to sexism and heteronormativity.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 04 décembre 2012 - 10:30 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

Vandicus wrote...
I say we remove all stereotype complaints by turning everyone into dragons, so we never have these topics again. Who's with me?

I am all for becoming dovah and spitting fire on the lesser mortal races.

Wait, wrong game.  I'm still all for becoming a giant fire-breathing lizard.

[Fukairi]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Fukairi wrote...
It doesn't matter if all the writers were females, but as long as the gaming audience want's to continue on their path of obscure female characters, I don't really see how the writers can have a say in this. The games are meant to sell, and if most of the people wish to trade bigger boobs for less personality, well, that's exactly what we are going to get, no matter the makers gender.

The writers have no say in their characters?  Why bother coming on the forums and telling them their female characters need work if you really believe that?  I'm not trying to be snide, I just don't understand.  

Just because a character is meant to be sexy and visually appealing doesn't mean s/he doesn't have less personality.  Isabela, Morrigan, and Mass Effect's Miranda Lawson had lots of characterization if you bothered to get to know them, and more importantly, their attire is an extension of who they are.  If Aveline wants to wear plate mail all the time, that's her character.  If Izzy wants to go pantsless, that's her character.  I'd be quicker to call fanservice if it was the other way around.

My comment was not targetting on any specific character, I was just making a generalization of what an industry where ultimately the goal is to sell their product is like. I still won't comment on the personality of isabela part, because as I stated earlier, I don't have sufficient recollection of her plotline...which I'll try to remedy later.

this thread is at most just a wake up call to see if there are people who would like more thoughts to go into the female characters, and if there are then the developement team would see the response to the female characters and bother to make things more realistic etc etc. so far not looking so good though, haha. (kind of what I was expecting after scanning dozens and dozens of different communities and articles for information for my research on sexism in the gaming industry, but one can always have hope)

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

This is the wroooong company to use as an example of typical sexism in the industry.

I don't think any MORE thought could be put into the female characters in Dragon Age. They are all complex and nuanced, and its a shame you haven't noticed.

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 04 décembre 2012 - 10:31 .

[upsettingshorts]

Pseudocognition wrote...

This is the wroooong company to use as an example of typical sexism in the industry.

On the other hand...

[Fredward]

Fukairi wrote...
this thread is at most just a wake up call to see if there are people who would like more thoughts to go into the female characters, and if there are then the developement team would see the response to the female characters and bother to make things more realistic etc etc. so far not looking so good though, haha. (kind of what I was expecting after scanning dozens and dozens of different communities and articles for information for my research on sexism in the gaming industry, but one can always have hope)

Except that this isn't the case with Bioware. At all.

Confirmation bias much?

[Fukairi]

Pseudocognition wrote...

This is the wroooong company to use as an example of typical sexism in the industry.

As I've implied before, just because things are oh, so much better (this is to be taken without sarcasm) within bioware's designs, it doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist here too. It's yes, significantly smaller but I'd still love it if it was not there at all. Same goes to the male designs as well.

[brushyourteeth]

Vandicus wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

Yeah, I don't see where these complaints are coming from at all. Sorry.

If what you want is to see more females in games who are strong and independent without having to rely on sex appeal to validate their importance in the game, they exist in spades in DA. And if that's not enough, you need look no farther than your female protagonist. If every female character were just like Wynne, or Anora, or Aveline, or Cassandra, or Meredith, or Shale, the games would be pretty boring.

... not to mention that the guys also have to put up with the horny bastard stereotype at least as often as we girls are faced with the naughty sex kitten. :/

I say we remove all stereotype complaints by turning everyone into dragons, so we never have these topics again. Who's with me?

LOL! Then we'd just have more threads saying "Women need more representation in these games!!! Why aren't there distinctly GIRL dragons?!!"

Ugh. The cycle!!

Seriously, though -- I respect the spirit in which the OP was intended. Girl-power and all that. But I just don't think that this particular critique is strongly applicable to the world of Dragon Age. It's as touchy a subject for me as it is for any gal, but the writers have a great track record and I trust them implicitly when it comes to portraying my gender in a balanced way.

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 04 décembre 2012 - 10:34 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

Pseudocognition wrote...

This is the wroooong company to use as an example of typical sexism in the industry.

Or at least the wrong branch of the company.  Mass Effect's treatment of the female protagonist and characters is a more mixed track record.

Fukairi wrote...
this thread is at most just a wake up call to see if there are people who would like more thoughts to go into the female characters, and if there are then the developement team would see the response to the female characters and bother to make things more realistic etc etc. so far not looking so good though, haha. (kind of what I was expecting after scanning dozens and dozens of different communities and articles for information for my research on sexism in the gaming industry, but one can always have hope)

Like I said, the less realistic cast of DA2 is a design decision for everyting, from the combat animations to the character design, not just for fanservice or sexism.  I think it's just that plenty of people on BSN (male and female, regardless of character romanced) think the DA team's doing fine with regard to the female characters.  

[NasreddinHodja]

I do agree that Bioware could work harder to take their characters further away from archetypes, but:

1. This isn't necessarily a bad thing. In essence, the characters in Dragon Age are different visages of the human personality, magnified so they become fully-developed characters. And to be honest, we love them because of it. We recognize some very real personalities in these caricatures, some of them may even be our own. And that makes us relate to them and care about them emotionally.

2. This applies to both male and female characters, so the topic really isn't "sexism in the industry," but more "three-dimensional characters in stories."

Modifié par NasreddinHodja, 04 décembre 2012 - 10:44 .

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

brushyourteeth wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

Yeah, I don't see where these complaints are coming from at all. Sorry.

If what you want is to see more females in games who are strong and independent without having to rely on sex appeal to validate their importance in the game, they exist in spades in DA. And if that's not enough, you need look no farther than your female protagonist. If every female character were just like Wynne, or Anora, or Aveline, or Cassandra, or Meredith, or Shale, the games would be pretty boring.

... not to mention that the guys also have to put up with the horny bastard stereotype at least as often as we girls are faced with the naughty sex kitten. :/

I say we remove all stereotype complaints by turning everyone into dragons, so we never have these topics again. Who's with me?

LOL! Then we'd just have more threads saying "Women need more representation in these games!!! Why aren't there distinctly GIRL dragons?!!"

Ugh. The cycle!!

Seriously, though -- I respect the spirit in which the OP was intended. Girl-power and all that. But I just don't think that this particular critique is strongly applicable to the world of Dragon Age. It's as touchy a subject for me as it is for any gal, but the writers have a great track record and I trust them implicitly when it comes to portraying my gender in a balanced way.

Wait aren't high Dragon's exclusively female?

Modifié par DinoSteve, 04 décembre 2012 - 10:38 .

[JCAP]

"And here we go again" - sarcastic Hawke

Now seriously, OP, you are being unfair, Dragon Age universe is the only one or one of the few where woman have more power than men! Divine, Black Divine, Andraste, Flemeth, Anora (), Empress Celine, ETC!!!!

Now tell me 3 men THAT powerful! The most powerful I can think of is Alistair if he turns king, but even so he is more weak that the women I stated.

So what? 1 or 2 female characters with sex appeal  appears and you almost call this EXCELENT universe sexist?
Grow up.

No, you know what? I think this universe is sexist, but with the men. Why don't we have more powerful male characters? This game is so sexist...

Modifié par JCAP, 04 décembre 2012 - 10:43 .

[hoorayforicecream]

Fukairi wrote...

Pseudocognition wrote...

This is the wroooong company to use as an example of typical sexism in the industry.

As I've implied before, just because things are oh, so much better (this is to be taken without sarcasm) within bioware's designs, it doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist here too. It's yes, significantly smaller but I'd still love it if it was not there at all. Same goes to the male designs as well.

I'd be interested in seeing who you think does a better job at what you're complaining about than Dragon Age. What game should the Dragon Age team take their influence from?

[upsettingshorts]

Fukairi wrote...

Pseudocognition wrote...

This is the wroooong company to use as an example of typical sexism in the industry.

As I've implied before, just because things are oh, so much better (this is to be taken without sarcasm) within bioware's designs, it doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist here too. It's yes, significantly smaller but I'd still love it if it was not there at all. Same goes to the male designs as well.

It's so small as to be imperceptible except through the highest, most unrealistic standard of scrutiny.

[Fredward]

Man. This thread is totally restoring some of my faith in humanity. Carry on BSN!

[Vandicus]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Man. This thread is totally restoring some of my faith in humanity. Carry on BSN!

I think you just broke my sarcasm meter.