170 réponses à ce sujet

[brushyourteeth]

DinoSteve wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

I say we remove all stereotype complaints by turning everyone into dragons, so we never have these topics again. Who's with me?

LOL! Then we'd just have more threads saying "Women need more representation in these games!!! Why aren't there distinctly GIRL dragons?!!"

Ugh. The cycle!!

Seriously, though -- I respect the spirit in which the OP was intended. Girl-power and all that. But I just don't think that this particular critique is strongly applicable to the world of Dragon Age. It's as touchy a subject for me as it is for any gal, but the writers have a great track record and I trust them implicitly when it comes to portraying my gender in a balanced way.

Wait aren't high Dragon's exclusively female?

OMG, good point! (no wings for you, boy-dragons! hurr hurrr) 

*brofist* for remembering that. I'm impressed!!

[Fukairi]

NasreddinHodja wrote...

I do agree that Bioware could work harder to take their characters further away from archetypes, but:

1. This isn't necessarily a bad thing. In essence, the characters in Dragon Age a different visages of the human personality, magnified so they become fully-developed characters. And to be honest, we love them because of it. We recognize some very real personalities in these caricatures, some of them may even be our own. And that makes us relate to them and care about them emotionally.

2. This applies to both male and female characters, so the topic really isn't "sexism in the industry," but more "three-dimensional characters in stories."

I'd like to be clear on the fact that I never said all the characters were utter ****. I loved fenris a lot while I played and at one point I felt I was cheating my other hawke when I started a new game and flirted with him oh man... But just because I liked a character, doesn't make me blind to it's flaws. I really like both games (and I have the unpopular opinion that DA II was actually better) but I would like it if the characters were more than just good. I want them to be phenomenal! And appropriately armored. And lose the lingering bits of cliched sexist things, which I will continue to argue exist. I chose to represent the female part of the characters because as a topic, it's really wide and goes so far back in history, it'd be better to just concentrate on one gender at a time. But alas, it has been a bit impossible to do, as I kind of expected. But again, one can only hope.

[brushyourteeth]

So, just out of curiosity, Fukairi -- if you were to implement the necessary changes to the DA universe to give women the representation you're looking for, or design the ideal female character, what would that look like, exactly?

I mean, without saying "She wouldn't wear *x*" or "It wouldn't be like *y*". What would the ultimate improvement look like?

[craigdolphin]

Being a bloke I'm reasonably sure I'm as partial to visual vitamins as the next guy. But I do agree that female armor does tend to err on the side of eye-candy at the expense of realism. And it's a bit stupid really. But I'm shallow/self-aware enough to admit that I like my romancible options to be physically attractive, as well as intellectually and emotionally attractive too.

That said, I also like realism in my games and chainmail bikinis are pretty unrealistic (except for boudoir settings perhaps!).

There's absolutley no reason why there should be a conflict here though.

In real life, no one wears armor unless they're anticipating battle. So why is it that our companions only ever wear armor? Even if they're sitting in their home, relaxing in camp, or some other relatively 'safe' setting?

I don't see why developers can't make appropriate and realistic armor, and also provide a range of regular clothing suited to a character's personality and the setting. E.g., Casual clothes for around camp/home; dresses and formalwear at the ball; light armor while travelling; heavy armor when patrolling, dungeon diving, whatever. Such a system might allow the devs a way to have iconic outfits while still allowing players to fully customize the items used in battle. Make clothing/armor a variable that plays into social interactions. Turn up to the ball in armor and find yourself ostracized. Watch the peasants scurry away as you stroll through the market armed to the teeth. As romances develop, maybe a companion starts dressing to impress a little more. And maybe vice versa for the PC.

I dunno if any of this is remotely plausible or affordable, but maybe it could be a better solution than the absurdities of game-armor (generally speaking), and it would add an interesting game mechanic to experiment with IMO.

[Fredward]

Fukairi wrote...

I'd like to be clear on the fact that I never said all the characters were utter ****. I loved fenris a lot while I played and at one point I felt I was cheating my other hawke when I started a new game and flirted with him oh man... But just because I liked a character, doesn't make me blind to it's flaws. I really like both games (and I have the unpopular opinion that DA II was actually better) but I would like it if the characters were more than just good. I want them to be phenomenal! And appropriately armored. And lose the lingering bits of cliched sexist things, which I will continue to argue exist. I chose to represent the female part of the characters because as a topic, it's really wide and goes so far back in history, it'd be better to just concentrate on one gender at a time. But alas, it has been a bit impossible to do, as I kind of expected. But again, one can only hope.

OHEMGEE STAHP IT. You're totally creating a problem where one doesn't exist so you can act all victimized when its pointed out that the problem does not exist.

You also sound incredibly pretentious in those last two sentences.

ALSO I'd argue that sexism definitely DOES still exist in gaming, I mean look at the Witcher for instance, but sexism goes both ways (which you seem to recognize) but that's beside the point, Bioware is just not guilty of this particular crime.

[upsettingshorts]

Fukairi wrote...

I'd like to be clear on the fact that I never said all the characters were utter ****. I loved fenris a lot while I played and at one point I felt I was cheating my other hawke when I started a new game and flirted with him oh man... But just because I liked a character, doesn't make me blind to it's flaws. I really like both games (and I have the unpopular opinion that DA II was actually better) but I would like it if the characters were more than just good. I want them to be phenomenal! And appropriately armored. And lose the lingering bits of cliched sexist things, which I will continue to argue exist. I chose to represent the female part of the characters because as a topic, it's really wide and goes so far back in history, it'd be better to just concentrate on one gender at a time. But alas, it has been a bit impossible to do, as I kind of expected. But again, one can only hope.

Wait.  Wait.

You spend the thread railing against stereotypes and pandering, and you cite Fenris as a character you like who is appropriately armored, isn't cliched, and doesn't have problematic opinions?

[JCAP]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Fukairi wrote...

I'd like to be clear on the fact that I never said all the characters were utter ****. I loved fenris a lot while I played and at one point I felt I was cheating my other hawke when I started a new game and flirted with him oh man... But just because I liked a character, doesn't make me blind to it's flaws. I really like both games (and I have the unpopular opinion that DA II was actually better) but I would like it if the characters were more than just good. I want them to be phenomenal! And appropriately armored. And lose the lingering bits of cliched sexist things, which I will continue to argue exist. I chose to represent the female part of the characters because as a topic, it's really wide and goes so far back in history, it'd be better to just concentrate on one gender at a time. But alas, it has been a bit impossible to do, as I kind of expected. But again, one can only hope.

OHEMGEE STAHP IT. You're totally creating a problem where one doesn't exist so you can act all victimized when its pointed out that the problem does not exist.

You also sound incredibly pretentious in those last two sentences.

ALSO I'd argue that sexism definitely DOES still exist in gaming, I mean look at the Witcher for instance, but sexism goes both ways (which you seem to recognize) but that's beside the point, Bioware is just not guilty of this particular crime.

this

[brushyourteeth]

craigdolphin wrote...

Being a bloke I'm reasonably sure I'm as partial to visual vitamins as the next guy. But I do agree that female armor does tend to err on the side of eye-candy at the expense of realism. And it's a bit stupid really. But I'm shallow/self-aware enough to admit that I like my romancible options to be physically attractive, as well as intellectually and emotionally attractive too.

That said, I also like realism in my games and chainmail bikinis are pretty unrealistic (except for boudoir settings perhaps!).

There's absolutley no reason why there should be a conflict here though.

In real life, no one wears armor unless they're anticipating battle. So why is it that our companions only ever wear armor? Even if they're sitting in their home, relaxing in camp, or some other relatively 'safe' setting?

I don't see why developers can't make appropriate and realistic armor, and also provide a range of regular clothing suited to a character's personality and the setting. E.g., Casual clothes for around camp/home; dresses and formalwear at the ball; light armor while travelling; heavy armor when patrolling, dungeon diving, whatever. Such a system might allow the devs a way to have iconic outfits while still allowing players to fully customize the items used in battle. Make clothing/armor a variable that plays into social interactions. Turn up to the ball in armor and find yourself ostracized. Watch the peasants scurry away as you stroll through the market armed to the teeth. As romances develop, maybe a companion starts dressing to impress a little more. And maybe vice versa for the PC.

I dunno if any of this is remotely plausible or affordable, but maybe it could be a better solution than the absurdities of game-armor (generally speaking), and it would add an interesting game mechanic to experiment with IMO.

I agree with this completely! Would be super cool, if it were possible.

Now, if every young lady in the game were only wearing skimpy outfits outside of combat all the time, I'd be super annoyed with that. But if someone like Isabela or Morrigan wanted to flash their naughties, that wouldn't bother me any because they're exceptions and it's completely within their character.

[Fukairi]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Fukairi wrote...

I'd like to be clear on the fact that I never said all the characters were utter ****. I loved fenris a lot while I played and at one point I felt I was cheating my other hawke when I started a new game and flirted with him oh man... But just because I liked a character, doesn't make me blind to it's flaws. I really like both games (and I have the unpopular opinion that DA II was actually better) but I would like it if the characters were more than just good. I want them to be phenomenal! And appropriately armored. And lose the lingering bits of cliched sexist things, which I will continue to argue exist. I chose to represent the female part of the characters because as a topic, it's really wide and goes so far back in history, it'd be better to just concentrate on one gender at a time. But alas, it has been a bit impossible to do, as I kind of expected. But again, one can only hope.

Wait.  Wait.

You spend the thread railing against stereotypes and pandering, and you cite Fenris as a character you like who is appropriately armored, isn't cliched, and doesn't have problematic opinions?

Bolded it out for you.

Fenris is ultimately a whiny, aggressive psychopath who wears ridiculous armor for 2h combat and walks around in harsh terrain bare footed for chirst's sake.

[upsettingshorts]

Fukairi wrote...

Fenris is ultimately a whiny, aggressive psychopath who wears ridiculous armor for 2h combat and walks around in harsh terrain bare footed for chirst's sake.

So you're capable of evaluating Fenris as an individual character with his own pros and cons without leaping to the conclusion that who he is a poor representation of a man?

How come Fenris is permitted to be considered as an individual and not Isabela or Merrill?  Are female characters not allowed to be imperfect, then? 

brushyourteeth wrote...

So, just out of curiosity, Fukairi -- if you were to implement the necessary changes to the DA universe to give women the representation you're looking for, or design the ideal female character, what would that look like, exactly?

I mean, without saying "She wouldn't wear *x*" or "It wouldn't be like *y*". What would the ultimate improvement look like?

This is a good question.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 04 décembre 2012 - 11:00 .

[Fukairi]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Fukairi wrote...

Fenris is ultimately a whiny, aggressive psychopath who wears ridiculous armor for 2h combat and walks around in harsh terrain bare footed for chirst's sake.

So you're capable of evaluating Fenris as an individual character with his own pros and cons without leaping to the conclusion that who he is a poor representation of a man?

How come Fenris is permitted to be considered as an individual and not Isabela or Merrill?  Are female characters not allowed to be imperfect, then? 

There were good points to both isabela and merril, but I was generally focusing on the things I feel need work. just because I think the character is bad, or I found them a bit offensive and boring, doesn't mean they don't have any redeeming qualities.

Also, you have misinterepted me twice now. I think Fenris is a hideous representation of a man honestly. Fenris was used as an example to point out that even if I liked this character it was flawed. So me pointing out flaws on isabela and merrill was not a personal swipe at people who liked them, and I am not certainly screaming in their faces wth caps lock and exclamation marks about how they could like them etc. I won't judge since, as pointed out, I like fenris, even if I think fenris and anders were both the biggest offenders on the sexism on the male gender honestly. Earlier I did state that ALL the romanceable characters were the least interesting etc.

[upsettingshorts]

Fukairi wrote...

just because I think the character is bad, or I found them a bit offensive and boring, doesn't mean [Isabela and Merrill] don't have any redeeming qualities.

I think fenris and anders were both the biggest offenders on the sexism on the male gender honestly. 

I do not even know what to say.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 04 décembre 2012 - 11:06 .

[TheJediSaint]

Here's my unsolicited read on Merrill and Isabela, since I like them so much.

Merrill:

She's an arrogant, headstrong, knowitall with a mayterdom complex.

She's also a caring, affectionate, woman who wants to help her people and friends in any way she can.

Isabela:

She's an irresponsible, shortsighted, drunk with no sense of shame.

She's also a fun-loving, caring, woman who always has her friend's back. And she has no sense shame.

Did I miss anything?

Modifié par TheJediSaint, 04 décembre 2012 - 11:08 .

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

lol Fenris and Anders worst characters ever.

Olny decent male character in the game was Varric, and yes that includes male hawke.

Modifié par DinoSteve, 04 décembre 2012 - 11:09 .

[Fukairi]

brushyourteeth wrote...

So, just out of curiosity, Fukairi -- if you were to implement the necessary changes to the DA universe to give women the representation you're looking for, or design the ideal female character, what would that look like, exactly?

I mean, without saying "She wouldn't wear *x*" or "It wouldn't be like *y*". What would the ultimate improvement look like?

Sooo sorry, I did mean to reply to this, I just kind of got overwhelmed and forgot!


diverse body types and appropriate armour. Maybe female character that were not all attractive to the eye? There were a few with plagued skin on origins, but as far as I remember all the female npc looked pleasing enough. To the lower races and dalish elves, it's understandable for them to be lithe and tiny, but the upper classes should be more robust. I'm not saying MAKE EVERYONE DISFIGURED AND FAT but ultimately diversity would be nice.

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

TheJediSaint wrote...

Here's my unsolicited read on Merrill and Isabela, since I like them so much.

Merrill:

She's an arrogant, headstrong, knowitall with a mayterdom complex.

She's also a caring, affectionate, woman who wants to help her people and friends in any way she can.

Did I miss anything?

Your Merril must have been different then mine. Although I will concede that she was arrogant, definitely arrogant.

Modifié par DinoSteve, 04 décembre 2012 - 11:12 .

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

In this thread: I didn't like them, therefore Bioware is sexist.

[NasreddinHodja]

Fukairi wrote...

NasreddinHodja wrote...

I do agree that Bioware could work harder to take their characters further away from archetypes, but:

1. This isn't necessarily a bad thing. In essence, the characters in Dragon Age a different visages of the human personality, magnified so they become fully-developed characters. And to be honest, we love them because of it. We recognize some very real personalities in these caricatures, some of them may even be our own. And that makes us relate to them and care about them emotionally.

2. This applies to both male and female characters, so the topic really isn't "sexism in the industry," but more "three-dimensional characters in stories."

I'd like to be clear on the fact that I never said all the characters were utter ****. I loved fenris a lot while I played and at one point I felt I was cheating my other hawke when I started a new game and flirted with him oh man... But just because I liked a character, doesn't make me blind to it's flaws. I really like both games (and I have the unpopular opinion that DA II was actually better) but I would like it if the characters were more than just good. I want them to be phenomenal! And appropriately armored. And lose the lingering bits of cliched sexist things, which I will continue to argue exist. I chose to represent the female part of the characters because as a topic, it's really wide and goes so far back in history, it'd be better to just concentrate on one gender at a time. But alas, it has been a bit impossible to do, as I kind of expected. But again, one can only hope.

Oh no!  I think they're great too!  I can draw a lot of parallels from the way the DA team writes characters to the way Joss Whedon does.  They both use a lot of tropes, but they can actually pull them well.  I was just saying that to point out specifically the female characters means to skew the question a little.  But it's all good; we can discuss about the way Dragon Age treats its female characters.

For familiarity's sake, I'd like to focus just on the female companions of DAO and DA2:

In the original, we have Lelianna, Wynne, Morrigan, and Shale.  Wynne is the typical grandmotherly figure and Shale is chunk of rock; so they probably doesn't count very much in this discussion other than as a counterpoint that not all women presented are there for male amusement.  Lelianna and Morrigan are set the way Betty and Veronica are set.  Both, in my opinion, have comparable character depths to the male love interests.  As far as character looks go, Leliana starts in a fully-covered Chantry robe, which makes sense considering her background.  Morrigan starts in a sexy outfit.  I have no doubt that player appeal is part of the reason, but this outfit also makes sense considering her background.  Beyond just spending time in the Wild and being rather clueless to civilization's norms, she also has been taught by Flemeth for a long time to use sexuality as a means to an end.  So why shouldn't she dress provocatively?  In comparison to the male love interest, we have the Male!Lelianna in Alistair, who's engineered to be cute the same way Leliann is, and Zevran, who's a hot Spanish Lover.  I think the fanservice goes both ways.

In the second game, we have  Merrill, Isabella, and Aveline.  I'd take a gander that Isabella has the largest problem here (Merrill's tunic is quite sensible and Aveline wears armor).  It actually makes some sort of sense that she's not wearing an Aveline-type armor, because her fighting style centers around not getting hit, and heavy clothing actually restricts your movement.  As someone else mentioned, her striperrific outfit also expresses her personality; she's promiscuous to a fault.  The game, however, handles this largely with humor.  I don't see Isabella as sexy as much as I think her sexual escapades are funny.  On the male side, we of course have Varric's epic chest hair (it's a pity he wasn't romanceable) and stupid sexy Fenris and dark brooding Anders.  Again, the fanservicy love interest angle is also played up here, for both sexes.  

There's also a divide over how sex appeal is treated in media.  Female sex appeals tend to be more physical (******, ass, maybe eyes if the writer's feeling romantic), while male sex appeals tend to be more behavioral (is he a dark, brooding, tortured soul?).  I think this is insulting to both sexes, because it implies that females ogling a man's well-oiled pecs is wrong while males can ONLY ogle... vast tracks of lands and can forget about personality.

But to bring the issue back to Dragon Age, I think that while there is a case for sexism in Dragon Age, it is comparatively far more benign than "the average media" and certainly wasn't intended to be one-sided for male gamers.  It is fair to want equality, but compared to media in general, Bioware is moving in the right direction.

[JCAP]

Fukairi wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Fukairi wrote...

Fenris is ultimately a whiny, aggressive psychopath who wears ridiculous armor for 2h combat and walks around in harsh terrain bare footed for chirst's sake.

So you're capable of evaluating Fenris as an individual character with his own pros and cons without leaping to the conclusion that who he is a poor representation of a man?

How come Fenris is permitted to be considered as an individual and not Isabela or Merrill?  Are female characters not allowed to be imperfect, then? 

There were good points to both isabela and merril, but I was generally focusing on the things I feel need work. just because I think the character is bad, or I found them a bit offensive and boring, doesn't mean they don't have any redeeming qualities.

Also, you have misinterepted me twice now. I think Fenris is a hideous representation of a man honestly. Fenris was used as an example to point out that even if I liked this character it was flawed. So me pointing out flaws on isabela and merrill was not a personal swipe at people who liked them, and I am not certainly screaming in their faces wth caps lock and exclamation marks about how they could like them etc. I won't judge since, as pointed out, I like fenris, even if I think fenris and anders were both the biggest offenders on the sexism on the male gender honestly. Earlier I did state that ALL the romanceable characters were the least interesting etc.

Why do you care if they do justice to a gender or not? I, and every men I know, don't give a cr*p about Anders and Fenris. They ARE characters, they don't represent any gender or country or whatever

[Fukairi]

NasreddinHodja wrote...

Fukairi wrote...

NasreddinHodja wrote...

I do agree that Bioware could work harder to take their characters further away from archetypes, but:

1. This isn't necessarily a bad thing. In essence, the characters in Dragon Age a different visages of the human personality, magnified so they become fully-developed characters. And to be honest, we love them because of it. We recognize some very real personalities in these caricatures, some of them may even be our own. And that makes us relate to them and care about them emotionally.

2. This applies to both male and female characters, so the topic really isn't "sexism in the industry," but more "three-dimensional characters in stories."

I'd like to be clear on the fact that I never said all the characters were utter ****. I loved fenris a lot while I played and at one point I felt I was cheating my other hawke when I started a new game and flirted with him oh man... But just because I liked a character, doesn't make me blind to it's flaws. I really like both games (and I have the unpopular opinion that DA II was actually better) but I would like it if the characters were more than just good. I want them to be phenomenal! And appropriately armored. And lose the lingering bits of cliched sexist things, which I will continue to argue exist. I chose to represent the female part of the characters because as a topic, it's really wide and goes so far back in history, it'd be better to just concentrate on one gender at a time. But alas, it has been a bit impossible to do, as I kind of expected. But again, one can only hope.

Oh no!  I think they're great too!  I can draw a lot of parallels from the way the DA team writes characters to the way Joss Whedon does.  They both use a lot of tropes, but they can actually pull them well.  I was just saying that to point out specifically the female characters means to skew the question a little.  But it's all good; we can discuss about the way Dragon Age treats its female characters.

For familiarity's sake, I'd like to focus just on the female companions of DAO and DA2:

In the original, we have Lelianna, Wynne, Morrigan, and Shale.  Wynne is the typical grandmotherly figure and Shale is chunk of rock; so they probably doesn't count very much in this discussion other than as a counterpoint that not all women presented are there for male amusement.  Lelianna and Morrigan are set the way Betty and Veronica are set.  Both, in my opinion, have comparable character depths to the male love interests.  As far as character looks go, Leliana starts in a fully-covered Chantry robe, which makes sense considering her background.  Morrigan starts in a sexy outfit.  I have no doubt that player appeal is part of the reason, but this outfit also makes sense considering her background.  Beyond just spending time in the Wild and being rather clueless to civilization's norms, she also has been taught by Flemeth for a long time to use sexuality as a means to an end.  So why shouldn't she dress provocatively?  In comparison to the male love interest, we have the Male!Lelianna in Alistair, who's engineered to be cute the same way Leliann is, and Zevran, who's a hot Spanish Lover.  I think the fanservice goes both ways.

In the second game, we have  Merrill, Isabella, and Aveline.  I'd take a gander that Isabella has the largest problem here (Merrill's tunic is quite sensible and Aveline wears armor).  It actually makes some sort of sense that she's not wearing an Aveline-type armor, because her fighting style centers around not getting hit, and heavy clothing actually restricts your movement.  As someone else mentioned, her striperrific outfit also expresses her personality; she's promiscuous to a fault.  The game, however, handles this largely with humor.  I don't see Isabella as sexy as much as I think her sexual escapades are funny.  On the male side, we of course have Varric's epic chest hair (it's a pity he wasn't romanceable) and stupid sexy Fenris and dark brooding Anders.  Again, the fanservicy love interest angle is also played up here, for both sexes.  

There's also a divide over how sex appeal is treated in media.  Female sex appeals tend to be more physical (******, ass, maybe eyes if the writer's feeling romantic), while male sex appeals tend to be more behavioral (is he a dark, brooding, tortured soul?).  I think this is insulting to both sexes, because it implies that females ogling a man's well-oiled pecs is wrong while males can ONLY ogle... vast tracks of lands and can forget about personality.

But to bring the issue back to Dragon Age, I think that while there is a case for sexism in Dragon Age, it is comparatively far more benign than "the average media" and certainly wasn't intended to be one-sided for male gamers.  It is fair to want equality, but compared to media in general, Bioware is moving in the right direction.

I love it when someone actually gets the point.
Thank you.

[Savber100]

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

Meh, it's just one of Bioware's biggest cliche to have an ice queen per series.

Bet you that it'll be Cassandra in DA3. 

[Wulfram]

All Bioware companions are strongly drawn archetypes, and I don't think that's more true of the women than the men. But they're also pretty diverse, and have plenty of character development that's personal to them rather than to their character type.

As for appearance, I'm not a huge fan of Isabela's outfit, but it's just one outfit for one character. It's if they decide that all female characters must be sexy and sexy in this particular way that I'll start complaining.

[Fukairi]

JCAP wrote...

Fukairi wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Fukairi wrote...

Fenris is ultimately a whiny, aggressive psychopath who wears ridiculous armor for 2h combat and walks around in harsh terrain bare footed for chirst's sake.

So you're capable of evaluating Fenris as an individual character with his own pros and cons without leaping to the conclusion that who he is a poor representation of a man?

How come Fenris is permitted to be considered as an individual and not Isabela or Merrill?  Are female characters not allowed to be imperfect, then? 

There were good points to both isabela and merril, but I was generally focusing on the things I feel need work. just because I think the character is bad, or I found them a bit offensive and boring, doesn't mean they don't have any redeeming qualities.

Also, you have misinterepted me twice now. I think Fenris is a hideous representation of a man honestly. Fenris was used as an example to point out that even if I liked this character it was flawed. So me pointing out flaws on isabela and merrill was not a personal swipe at people who liked them, and I am not certainly screaming in their faces wth caps lock and exclamation marks about how they could like them etc. I won't judge since, as pointed out, I like fenris, even if I think fenris and anders were both the biggest offenders on the sexism on the male gender honestly. Earlier I did state that ALL the romanceable characters were the least interesting etc.

Why do you care if they do justice to a gender or not? I, and every men I know, don't give a cr*p about Anders and Fenris. They ARE characters, they don't represent any gender or country or whatever

Oh boy.
I care because people are kind of stupid.
we are told to think this way and we think that way. All of our opinions are based on some intake, be it religion, upbringing, social circles or media. Media is by far, the largest place of intake. therefore it is crucially important that the media treats both genders realistically and appropriatelly for the media does infact matter. so yes, they are just characters but the also enforce certain potentially dangerous stereotypes.

Now, i'm not calling you personally stupid, but we are all so easily manipulated to think a certain way. Everything in this thread is based on something, weither we aknowledge it or not.

so this sort of indifference, that I shouldn't care because it doesn't matter, is indeed false because it does matter.

[Russalka]

Isabela was a very sex positive character, which was truly refreshing. Granted, I did worry about her getting hit with arrows and such.